| Author | Message | ||
     Bgbrd |
I've been looking into the new powerful super light Lithium ion Batteries like the Shorai and ballistic? I see the largest ballistic battery might fit in a tuber frame and make almost 100 more cranking amps than the stocker at less than 4 lbs. at 88 cubic in. my s3 could use the extra grunt. Has anyone used one of these? | ||
| Sifo |
I was just looking into this after my charging system troubles on my Triumph. I read that lithium batteries don't like charging voltage over 14.7 volts. They said they were quite fussy about the charging voltage. My Triumph is putting out 14.8 volts. I decided not to play with an expensive experiment at this point in time. There was a thread not long ago on this subject where the claim was made that the battery sold by EBR for example, had circuitry built in to protect the battery. This supposedly was at least part of why they are more expensive than other lithium batteries. Personally, I'm waiting for them to become more commonplace before I take the leap. Just my opinion though. I may be missing out on something worthwhile. I just don't know yet. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
get the new motorcyclist, they have a writeup about the new batteries and then a comparo on about 8 different brands of them | ||
| Sifo |
Thanks, that's where I read about the 14.7 charging limit...
| ||
| Greg_e |
Assuming Lithium means Lithium Poly and not Lithium Phosphate or one of the other non-metalic Lithium compounds, then yes overcharging can be a huge expensive problem where the pack can rupture. The LiFePO4 type that is commonly used in power tools is much more stable but will still have a shorter life span if you over change and pull the charge too low. All of these need to have a protection circuit designed to limit maximum charging voltage, monitor the cells for health and balance the charge between cells, and prevent over discharge. If they didn't, I wouldn't use them in this type of situation. Since I kind of wrecked my AGM last winter, I'll probably look at one of these choices sometime soon. | ||
| Froggy |
This. The problem is, Shoari, Speedcell, Ballistic, and all these "cheap" batteries do not have that. The EBR battery is the only one I can name that has that, and it will cost you quite a few pennies more. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
thus far in my admittedly limited exposure to only one brand and a short period of time playing with it the balance circuitry doesn't seem to be needed for the shorai batteries in the 1125r and 1190rs. from what i understand about the chemistry of the Shorai using the LiFePO4 makes them much less susceptible to the charging issues. I am sure that if you write to any of the manufacturers they will explain what is and is not needed for normal operation of their battery. Froggy who makes the EBR battery? I saw something about Nano-Tek? but my googlefoo has failed me. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
I am using a Shorai LFX18A1-BS12 in my Ducati 999S. This bike is known to be a "hard starter" I am very happy with it. I used the largest one that would fit, and it is much more powerful than the stock battery, and about an inch shorter and much lighter of course. The reason I got it was that the Ducati would not start in cold weather with the stock battery unless it was 100% charged. The Shorai always starts on the "first kick" no matter how cold it is. I ride on clear Sundays down to about 32º. I leave the unit on a battery tender as the Ducati immobilizer has a higher than normal drain. One tip for cold weather starting: Turn on the ignition, then wait about a minute until the head light turns itself off. This allows the battery to warm up, and the voltage actually increases about a quarter of a volt: this is a rather significant increase, and the opposite of what would occur with a conventional battery. Compared to how fast I was going through conventional batteries, this unit was actually a money saver. PS: The rest of the charging system and starting system tested ok, but like most motorcycles, is really just barely adequate for the job. Bottom Line: Go for it.  | ||
| 99buellx1 |
I have a Shorai in my 1125, works great. And they approve a battery tender for use if needed. Contact Shawn at Shorai to get his battery size recommendation, let him know you come from BadWeb. Always helps for that possible sponsorship $$ for Rob. | ||
| Stirz007 |
I'm running a MOTY-design in my race bike (cost less than $200). Got the 12 cell, because I wanted the amps on those cold mornings out in Tooele. The thing is what would be considered a "cheap" battery by Froggy's definition - - I mean, it doesn't even have a hard case, just heavy-duty shrink wrap. It's been in the bike for over a year. I use a "Battery Tender Plus" between track/race weekends, over the winter, etc. The battery sat in the bike off the tender for as long as almost three months when I had the motor out. So far, no problems whatsoever. When it finally gives up, I'll get a hardshell version - - but for now, ignorance is bliss, it works just fine and was pretty affordable at the time.... I do worry about the stories I've heard of these things having catastrophic melt-downs and torching bikes and everything in close proximity.  | ||
| Datsaxman |
I have stock batteries in the XBs still, but replaced the Concours battery with the Shorai one year ago today. Extra rally lighting, GPSx2, Valentine One, sometimes even charging the cell phone or this HP laptop on the fly. Parasitic drains drew it down flat once, but it came right back. Using an ordinary Battery Tender Jr. as needed. It has been flawless. | ||
| 86129squids |
The MC had two articles- one reviewing a bunch of these batteries, plus a proper charger, and another essay by James Parker about these batteries and their development. Very good reading. Not that I'm Trump or anything, but given the huge weight savings these offer, I wonder about their marine applications. I've seen monstrous banks of regular batteries on houseboats, heck, ANY boat would greatly benefit from these things, I'm guessing. Hate to have to pay for the replacement cost, but given the weight savings and performance over time, mebbe the costs would be justified. | ||
| Froggy |
I don't know who makes it for them, Nano-Tek was just a name they were using for it.
Yea, its like using straight water in your radiator instead of proper coolants, it will bite you in the ass in the long run. They will not last as long and are more susceptible to damage from too many volts and overcharging without any protection systems in place. If it is working for you, great, just don't be surprised if you only don't get the life or durability of a lead battery out of it. | ||
| Froggy |
Pretty much anything can benefit from the size to performance ratio improvement alone. You can get a lithium battery the same size as a lead battery and have significantly more power on tap, allowing longer periods of time to run without a generator. The Prius switched from a Nickel to Lithium battery for the new model, allowing for a fuel economy increase. I've seen some race bikes switch to running a total loss electrical system, they remove the stator and related components to reduce weight and rotational mass from the crank, then just use a lithium battery with a quick release connector and swap them out/recharge after each session. | ||
| Sifo |
I do worry about the stories I've heard of these things having catastrophic melt-downs and torching bikes and everything in close proximity. That would be my biggest fear. It would be one thing to fry an expensive battery, but given what lithium batteries have done in cell phones, lap tops, and certain cars, I would hesitate to drop one into a bike as an experiment at this point, especially knowing that my charging system is putting slightly more volts than they say the like. Give them a few years and I may change my opinion. I wonder what the insurance co. would say about a vehicle that burned because of one of these batteries cooking. | ||
| Stirz007 |
"yea, its like using straight water in your radiator instead of proper coolants, it will bite you in the ass in the long run." Well - I do that too. (with a little water wetter), and have been for at least three years. So far, my ass is a bit too large, but all in one giant piece. How much time do you figure the "long run" is, exactly, so I can change my non-righteous ways?  | ||
| Strokizator |
Here's a 15 page thread on Shorai batteries over on the Orange Crush section of advrider (and you thought BMW owners were anal). http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65 0324 | ||
| Froggy |
I love how the thread progresses, first page is things along the lines of "wow best thing ever adds more HP than my K&N stickers", then the last page is people complaining it lasted only a year. There was another thread on ADV talking about how the Shorais do not output at their rated levels, you need to step up to their biggest and most expensive models in order to match the performance of a cheapo Yusa battery. I'll have to look it up again, I recall them setting it on fire just by charging it up. | ||
| Firstbuell |
moar: http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/energy/news-e nvironmentally-rechargeable-lithium-iron-battery-b etter-lithium-ion-battery | ||
| Kenm123t |
adv riders have even more electro add ons than you do froggy and some are pretty poorly done. Then they whip into the BMW dealer and say its warranty and you have to fix it | ||
| Froggy |
And? Doesn't mean the Shoari isn't a poor design and that they don't lie about their rated output. | ||
| Teeps |
The only info usefull for Buell riders is other Buell anecdotes with regard to operation and durability of "said batteries." $43 for a Yuasa battery 6 years of service and counting. 7 bucks a year; I can live with that. NOTE: Your mileage may vary. | ||
| Sifo |
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=770364 This guy did a lot of testing of a Shoari and give lots of information on batteries and charging systems. The do seem to like to be charged between 14.2 and 14.7 volts. That kind of kills it for my Triumph, though I might double check with a better voltmeter. Sounds like some specific BMW models are not up to the task. Anyone know the voltage of a typical Buell regulator? Then again my Buell has been on the same AGM battery since I bought it 4 1/2 years ago. Still fires every time. The cold start issues with the lithium sounds like a PITA too. Talking about a 15 minute start up procedure! I would hate that on any day, but when I'm standing out in the cold, I really just want to get where I'm going. It's a shame. I really want to believe. | ||
| Sifo |
Here's a video showing the cold start hoop you jump through. Not the 15 minutes someone advrider complained about, but it's not a fire right up thing. I wonder how the plugs would resist fouling on some engines with those slow cranks every cold morning. http://ballisticparts.com/downloads/video/video2.p hp | ||
| Froggy |
I can tell you from first hand experience with a similar battery from Speedcell that mine never took that long or that much effort to start my 06 XB. Yes the first attempt to crank may be weak if it is cold out, but it was never that bad. I'll dig out the old Speedcell and see if it still has enough kick to start my 1125 up. | ||
| Greg_e |
The cells we are talking about in these vehicle batteries are not prone to burn up. These are metal cased cells so they will take a fair amount of abuse. On the other hand, going with Lithium Polymer which is a soft sack battery can be damaged extremely easily. I think they were tried in the early days of electric vehicles, but they really hate things like excessive current draw (like starting), over discharge, over charge, and physical damage. These old style or the type of cell you see on youtube when you search lipo fire. The newest chemistry of these soft sack cells has a flame preventative so fires are less likely, but all the rest still apply. I can't really believe that anyone would manufacture a LiFEPO4 battery without at least putting a cell balance device on them. These lowest tech. balancers are nearly free when you make them for yourself. Plans are straight from the chip manufacturer and the chips are only a couple dollars. http://www.astroflight.com/index.php?main_page=pro duct_info&cPath=34&products_id=21 | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
it's interesting to me that some products get a pass because they are in development and others don't here. | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
didn't see anyone mention anti-gravity. i have one. like it. made in USA. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
I'm even more cheapskate, I've found that cheapo brands usually last about 2/3 the life of a Yuasa but cost roughly 1/2. Probably not very eco-friendly I admit, but I've no idea how green the Lion battery production/recycling chain is either. On the eco friendly side of things, here's a question. Over the projected lifetime of a modern electric vehicle, is more energy consumed producing the vehicle, replacing & recycling the battery pack, recharging for daily use, & then recycling the vehicle. Or filling the tank, & routine maintenance on your old classic smallblock powered whatever. For an equal mileage to be sure. I've no idea if such a study has been done but I'd be interested to see the results if so. | ||
| Aesquire |
How much time do you figure the "long run" is, exactly, so I can change my non-righteous ways? Yesterday. Or three years ago. Your choice. The use of water instead of "prestone" ( glycol based coolant ) means you are in effect, using a smaller radiator. Water does not transfer heat as well as "anti-freeze", so your whatever uses more energy to throw away the waste heat. Your boiling point is lower. Your freezing point is far higher. Everything I own that's water cooled would be dead ( or expensively crippled ) if I used water after one winter. ( they all live in unheated sheds or outdoors ) If you don't have that issue in UT ( Funny, it was as cold as heck last time I drove through there at night ) then you have just narrowed the gap between normal operation and an overheat. Unless it's custom, or designed before the 1930's the radiator is designed for glycol based coolants. With a overbuilt factor you are using. If the use isn't too heavy duty, and nothing freezes, you can get away with water as coolant. I however, can't. Gets -20f here pretty regular. I use diesel anti-gell religiously too. The best mix for "prestone" for both heat transfer and freeze protection is about 70/30 glycol/water, but a 50/50 mix is close enough for places other than Siberia or the Dakota's. Now, about the fancy new batteries. Why? Is it to lose a few ounces or gain a bit more cranking power? I'm not trying to be a luddite about it, just wondering why bother? |
