| Author | Message | ||
     Mls1 |
As if they don't sacrifice enough... http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-spokane/ob ama-to-cut-medical-benefits-for-active-retired-mil itary-not-union-workers (Message edited by mls1 on March 04, 2012) | ||
| Geforce |
But wait, there's more... this and many other reasons are the primary influences in my decision to ETS. The #$%& is hitting the fan where I'm stationed and there's no fix coming anytime soon. Troops are not staying in because we have lost confidence in our nation's ability to manage resources and make intelligent decisions with the resources we do have. I can't speak for everyone in uniform but every NCO I've run into has the same basic sentiments when it comes to this. Perhaps it's a voter base thing... I can count on one hand the number of registered Democrats in the Army I've bumped into. So perhaps his strategy is to work on his union ties while further alienating service members? Either way, I'm taking myself and my family out of this mess before they take everything away from us. It's a crying shame too, I envisioned retiring in uniform and I'd gladly stick it out if only things were different. | ||
| Kc10_fe |
Well considering those in WG/GS pay scales here in the NE region already pay an average of $400 a month for health benEfits who are they really targeting with this? Thats $399.99 more than anyone on AD. Good attack on the union. YOu are not required to join a union when you work for the DoD if you didnt know. There is already a huge double standard in uniform vs out. I laugh at how a poor retired 0-6 would have to put out 2K out of pocket. Are you fu%en serious? Using someone whos clearly made over $100K while in uniform for some time pay a horrific $2k as an example of how were screwing the working man in uniform? 0-6 retirment is a minimun of $4000 a month btw not even including any VA compensation but a more honest number is prob $5.5K+ a month. 2012 0-6 26 year TIS basic pay is 10351 monthly. An E-6/7 would have a much tougher time eating this increase considering after 20 they might collect less than half of what the 0-6 made. E-6/7 26 years TIS $3590/$4089 so $2k a month Ive been wearing the uniform for 19 years now and being a full timer gone part timer I have to say get out the bs boots. An E-5 with dependants make as much or more than a GS-10 which is most cases requires a degree. The AD guy pays almost nothing aside from dependant dental and co pays for the family which if seen on base is ZERO. The govt worker pays about $400+ just for coverage not including co pays for everything. I see both sides here and shit is rotten all over but nobody is getting screwed. The next president cant fix any of this. Its time to face the facts that printing money isnt going to solve anything and the free train has derailed for everyone except those who choose to never have worked and mooch in multi generation style. Recruitment and retentions is NOT a factor. Many, 100K+ are looking at a potential RIF (reduction in force) AKA lay off. AS long as unemployment is high like the past 5 years the lines to get in will be plump with recent college grads drowning in debt along side of those just finishing high school trying to get something started. (Message edited by kc10_fe on March 04, 2012) (Message edited by kc10_fe on March 04, 2012) | ||
| Jetbuilder |
Last time I checked the thug union crew that Obama supports dont write the same check to the country we do the one that says if need be I will give my life. At least that is how it is in the Army which is a much less pleasent life than my AF brothers. With the exception of the PJ`s and CCT there is a difference in service environment and conditions in the services. There are the guys doing the shooting and the guys doing the supporting. I am not saying there is any less honor in either but lets be honest last time I checked I did not see a maid at FOB cobra like they did at Patricks AF base.So saying that there is any frontline joe that deserves to pay more i say hell no Red Field ARTY (RET) | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
"Troops are not staying in because we have lost confidence in our nation's ability to manage resources and make intelligent decisions with the resources we do have. I can't speak for everyone in uniform but every NCO I've run into has the same basic sentiments when it comes to this." Until recently, I was one of those NCOs. You've described my feelings perfectly. I'm so glad the DoD budget cuts gave me a way out while the getting was good. Speaking of the getting being good, the same geniuses who drastically reduced the number of available billets to save money gave me a severance worth half a year's pay plus allowances on my way out the door after 6 years. I wasn't even officially off Active Duty before the Navy Reserve came calling, offering me another half year's pay plus allowances as an enlistment bonus for 6 years with them. Are you #*$&ING kidding me!? So DoN's budget has been slashed, you have to find ways to save money, and you decide to give a single person separate lump sums of damn near $50,000 for simply moving to Active Reserve? Multiply that logic by the tens of thousands of service members being shown the door, and it's mind-boggling. I'm damn proud of the service I gave to my country, and I'm damn proud to have left when I did. I have absolutely no interest in working for a government that can't abide by it's own Constitutional laws. We hear the phrase "For God and Country" thrown around a lot. Unfortunately for me, it has become "For God and Constitution". Too many fools in this nation want to blindly follow the hand that feeds them wherever it may lead. Too many so-called leaders focused on the next election instead of answering tough questions with unpleasant but necessary answers. I'm done fighting for my country, it's time to start fighting for my Constitution. 2005-2012 AT2, FAIRECONRON THREE IRONMAN  | ||
| Aesquire |
Time to re-read "Starship Troopers" by R.A. Heinlein. ( not the movie  the book. ) not saying anything...just saying. | ||
| Geforce |
^ Very good book, and I loaned my copy out to a good friend who also enjoyed it. Sometimes I almost wished we'd adopt the officer corps selection process for senior enlisted folks. Once you make the equivalent of Staff Sergeant... you are boarded for future potential as an officer or senior NCO. From there, you are sent through the toughest damn leadership training you've ever thought of. Imagine an "O" corps comprised of all once enlisted folks. Indeedly. I can't say R.A.H's system was utopian, but it did do a lot for those who were willing to step forward and say... "Here I am, send me!" Service in any capacity is honorable in my book. I am just having a VERY hard time defining "service" to your country when it comes to politics and government. And until the populace stops voting for career politicians, this nation will continue down a path of destruction. | ||
| Kenm123t |
GE Chuck Yeager is the best example of the system you refer to. He was a Mustang battle field commissioned. | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
The definition of service all boils down to one question. Is America a place or an idea? For me, it's an idea. An idea that has been spelled out very eloquently and deftly in our Constitution. If our nation operates out of alignment with that idea while plodding along under the banner of it's name, then service to such a nation ceases to have any relevance to true Patriotism. Our nation's foundation was laid by a group of very patriotic men who were not in service to their country. Colonists were very proud to see themselves as British even into the early 1770s, when those national loyalties began wearing thin. The story really isn't that different from today. Britain (including her colonies in America) had just come out of the Seven Years War, and was in nearly twice as much debt as before the war. Parliament saw the colonies as a cash cow and began placing massive taxes on them to pay the debt down. Interestingly, these relatively light tax burdens would be considered a delight in the U.S. today. At the same time that they were under a new and heavier tax burden, the colonists' freedoms were being taken away via Parliament's Proclamation Line. The colonists had just fought for Britain and taken control of large portions of land from France, but Britain prohibited them from moving westward to benefit from their spoils of war. Britain was too afraid that westward expansion would mean increased conflict with Indians. I'm sure we all know the rest of the story.. Stamp Act, Intolerable Acts, Boston Massacre (not really a massacre at all), etc. It all escalated in just a few short years. I don't believe the men involved took lightly the fact that they were committing treason against the country that they were once proud to be a part of. History does in fact repeat itself. In my opinion, we're reaching the point where a handful of informed Americans are becoming decreasingly proud of their nation and as a result, are clinging tighter to the ideals that formed it. | ||
| Orman1649 |
I'm glad I got out when I did..... 1999-2003 AT2 FAIRCONRON ONE World Watchers | ||
| Xb1125r |
well if i remember right Obama wants to get rid of all the service healthcare and have them being treated at obama care hospitals. you dont like it vote Republican its that siimple | ||
| Blake |
Not sure the benefits were cut as the title indicates. It reports that the military folks just have to pay a greater share towards their health insurance. Wisconsin did the same to the teachers. Using the same dishonest reporting methods that the author of the topical article uses, one could report that the teachers in Wisconsin saw their share of the cost of their health benefits increase by over 1,000,000,000,000%! It's true. They previously paid zero (0%), so just increasing their payment to one dollar would make that wild sensationalistic statement true. It's just not honest reporting. The author of this article is using the same technique. He at least comes clean with one set of actual figures. "According to congressional assessments, a retired Army colonel with a family currently paying $460 a year for health care will pay $2,048," Gertz wrote. So a man at retirement age who is earning ~$60K or so in retirement pay has to pay a whole $170/mo for family health insurance? Excuse me if I don't cry about that. It makes a lot of sense actually. Most here know how it pains me to defend anything to do with Obama. I think he's a real threat to our great nation and our freedom. On this one, I have to agree with him. And how the heck is he supposed to cut union benefits??? Really dumb misleading article. | ||
| Blake |
http://www.dfas.mil/dms/dfas/militarymembers/pdf/M ilPayTable2012.pdf | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Blake. Are you feeling okay? | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
"So a man at retirement age who is earning ~$60K or so in retirement pay has to pay a whole $170/mo for family health insurance?" Blake, that man has already served his country for 20+ years under the agreement that he would collect his retirement pay and be provided with health insurance. He held up his end of the bargain, are you seriously condoning going back on this country's end of the bargain? I understand that the fat must be trimmed, cuts need to be made and they won't be pleasant. If military medical benefits need to be one of those cuts, then make the changes starting now. New recruits know what they're signing up for.. that's fine. But to change the rules for someone who is already halfway through their planned 20 year career, or even those who have completed their careers and retired - that's just dirty. | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
Can you imagine what this would do to recruiting? Right now, a majority of those making a 20+ year career in the military are there due mainly to the retirement benefits. Potential recruits could end up with zero faith in the agreement that they're entering into. "The rules just changed for current retirees, I wonder how the rules will change 20 years from now when I've already sacrificed so much and am ready to retire myself?" | ||
| Blake |
Phillip, Why should military be different than the rest of us? Why is it ok for teachers in WI, but not the military? $16,000,000,000 in debt and climbing. Entitlements are literally killing America. It's long past time for EVERYONE to recognize that and do our part return to our core values. Having to pay just $50/mo towards family health insurance is an amazingly light burden. | ||
| Blake |
PK, Are we sure when the new policies take effect? I doubt they will kick in against existing retirees or even those close to retirement. I could be wrong. Just looking for the facts is all. | ||
| Buelliedan |
I retired after 20 years in the Army and while I don't like the proposal I have to agree with Blake in that we all need to pay our fair share. But it needs to be everyone treated equally, that includes memebers of Congress also having to pay a share of ther fair share and get rid of their automatic pensions after serving only 1 term. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I'd rip *all* benefits from former congress people. Given the size of the current debt, they should probably be in jail for treason. | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
"Why should military be different than the rest of us? Why is it ok for teachers in WI, but not the military?" I never said that military should be different, I said that the American people should not go back on the provisions that were already promised military retirees. As for the situation in WI, I am ignorant of the details. If reducing the benefits of retired teachers is part of the deal, that's wrong. "Are we sure when the new policies take effect? I doubt they will kick in against existing retirees or even those close to retirement." I doubt they will kick in for anyone before election season has come and gone. That being said, I don't know if current retirees or those close to retirement eligibility will be exempted or not. That was the basis of my huge problem with this policy change. As long as it doesn't affect those who have already served then fine, make the cuts. They need to be made now. I say all this as a completely unbiased veteran who is not and will probably never be collecting any pension or health insurance benefits. I do, however, have a good idea of what sacrifices would be involved in serving for 20+ years as I served over a quarter of that myself. I'd be pretty disappointed in my country if after holding up 100% of my end of the bargain, my country changed their mind and cut my benefits. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
The dirty little secret about insurance ..... its over - rated. If you take a look at your expenditures vs premiums - in every case except for chronic diseases - and bundled medication treatments - the cost of actually going to the doctor in a year is minimal. NOW here is where PERSONAL Responsibility comes in (WHAT ! damnit man - you cant tell me to be responsible for myself ! {•••• it - if you won't why EVER should I be responsible for you} ) Take that money that you WOULD have spent on the premium of insurance, and put it into IRA/FSA/HSA/and an indemnity plan for catastrophic illnesses ..... and you will come out ahead - with money in your pocket, and a safety net accounts that YOU control - now if you further invest that money wisely - you are infinitely ahead. I recommend Red Neck Stocks - things that are actually every day brand use items. I have yet to be disappointed by the gains from RJ Reynolds (Kraft) McDonalds, Coke, Ford, and my fav Roush Pharma (there is a new virus coming .... are you ready for it ?!?) Now - imagine ever leach sucker on Medicaid having to have personal responsibility ..... its a different country. Not even going to broach Medicare - they lined their golden parachute pretty well. it will never be fleeced - too much of a sacred cow - but indeed; it is just as flawed, just as failed. Go through the Federal agencies - look at all the entitelements for social/age/poverty/'disparate' populations..... The way out of this mess is Self Reliance - Independence, and good old fashioned house cleaning..... Pity - that when the cleaning starts - that the ones running the machines are the first ones through it. (they never are) | ||
| Crackhead |
I have worked in the medical private sector, and currently I am a GS worker and a USCG Reserve. So, I have experienced both sides of the healthcare coin. I don't see a problem with raising the military's insurance premiums BUT there needs to be some drastic changes to the military medical system. While not in a combat zone,the troops need to be allowed to sue for malpractice. There is some F up shit going on and there appears to be no recourse. The quality of the military medical personal needs to be improved. While there are some good ones, that want to serve and improve the life of the military members. There are a sizable number of personal that could never survive on the outside. While in a combat zone the troops do not pay anything towards health insurance since the GOV has a monopoly on everything. | ||
| Hootowl |
We don't pay the military (except those senior officers noted above) shit. Part of the compensation for below minimum wage salaries are medical benefits. You're not just talking about cutting benefits for retired Captains, you're talking about cutting benefits for active duty E4s who qualify for food stamps. This is a bad move. | ||
| Blake |
Minimum wage equates to less than $15K per year. The military pay scale shows even an E1 (boot camp enlistee) earning significantly more than that, and they also get free room and board, no? Do not all folks living on base get free room and board? How much is that worth? And those living off base get a fairly generous Basic Allowance for Housing (BAH), no? An E4 in San Diego for instance gets over $1,000 per month for his/her BAH, no? Food stamps? They may taste better than what the mess hall offers I suppose. But are they really nutritious? | ||
| Hootowl |
You are assuming an 8 hour work day. Go live on a ship for a while. And that grand a month for VHA doesn't cover the rent in southern california. They're paying out of pocket. If you've got a family, you can't live on base. There isn't enough housing. They've recently built a bunch of off base housing in California though, and that has helped a lot. Family doesn't get free galley food either. They can eat there, but they have to pay. If you live off base, you get commuted rations, which isn't even enough to feed yourself, let alone your family, and you have to pay to eat in the galley. If you are stationed on board a ship, you are not eligible for comrats, even if you do have a family. At least, that's the way it was when I was in. | ||
| Blake |
>>> Blake. Are you feeling okay? Fair and balanced as usual. You ought to try it. | ||
| Hootowl |
At sea the standard shift is 12 on 12 off, 7 days a week. That's an 84 hour week. You usually end up working longer than 12 hours. For an E4 with over 4 years in, that's $6.23 per hour. And when you do get off work, you don't get to go home, you just get to go to your rack and wait for there to be a drill or an actual casualty while you're trying to sleep through the 1MC announcements (if you have the pleasure of working the night shift). It's no picnic. And we want to reward this sacrifice by cutting their already crappy medical benefits? | ||
| Strokizator |
The dirty little secret about insurance ..... its over - rated. You're exactly right, City. I see a guy like Bill O'Reilly complain about his insurance company and ask myself why this guy isn't self-insured. He makes millions a year and he's pissing his money away on insurance. Union workers in my trade earn something like $9,82 an hour in health and welfare benefits - that's close to $20K a year if they work full time. I'd rather have the cash, buy a catastrophic health policy and pay for flu shots, eye exams and teeth cleanings out of my own pocket. Even things like a broken arm and oral implant are not going to wipe you out. There's some risk there but the odds are by far in your favor. | ||
| Blake |
Jeff, until we know what the actual situation is, when they kick in and what the increased retirement health insurance payments are, I don't think it's fair to say that we are cutting any benefits. How many people retire from the military as an E4? | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
"How many people retire from the military as an E4?" Blake, you're completely missing the point. It doesn't matter what rank a retiree is, it doesn't matter what outrageous amount of pay he is collecting. (even though the pay is mediocre at best for E-1 through E-9 and O-1 through approximately O-3) But yet again, that debatable point is irrelevant. By signing his name on that dotted line, he entered into a contract with the American people to put his life on the line in defense of this nation. That agreement includes the reception of any and all benefits agreed upon at the time of his signing. You want to tell that man, "Thanks for giving up 20 years of your life, but the economy sucks and we just can't hold up our end of the bargain." That doesn't work for me. If I had pulled that crap on active duty, I'd have spent a lot of quality time in the back office with a few Chiefs. "Sorry, Chief. Maintenance Control says we're out of money and can't order any more parts until the beginning of next fiscal year. I can't fix MILSTAR." I wish you understood how absolutely absurd that idea is. The United States Armed Forces do not take no for an answer, they do not throw up their hands in defeat when difficulty arises, and they do not deserve to be lied to about their retirement benefits. |
