| Author | Message | ||
     Etennuly |
Froggy, if you have a cracked intake boot, or a stuck or bent valve on a carburetor engine, it will not start or run any better with a throttle body attached to it. Do a compression test and look closely at that rubber intake for cracks. | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
The "geeks" of today are the "grease monkeys" of the past. While gear heads mourn the lost art of points and carbs, computer techs talk about the days of coding and Unix and whatnot (I assume, I'm not a computer guy) Some things become "lost arts" because there's not much use for them. There's not a big market for vintage motorcycles and vintage cars for that matter. It's a niche and more often than not, especially with cars, the goal is to modernize the past. How long till we see hybrid and electric hot rods? There will always be a small group of specialized "lost art" skill workers. Right now there's a guy somewhere making swords and armor at a hand-made forge. But there will only be as many as the market can support. For every guy restoring anique bikes and loving his job there are dozens of other guys, just as good, that lost their ass trying. But the case can be made that a larger section of the population are guided to look down on manual labor and seek "higher" positions. Not everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, engineer or CEO. Someone has the put stuff together. Some people have to fix things that break. And to be able to do so, and do it well, is not an easy thing either. Not everyone can be a good mechanic, plumber, carpenter, ect. | ||
| Blake |
I think that man lacks balance in his life and is accurate when he notes that his observations are likely no different from what his forbears were saying about his generation. We still have plenty of gearheads around here. Carb versus EFI on motorcycles? Relatively speaking we see WAY more problems here involving EFI than with any carburetor. With EFI it is a nightmarish guessing game to diagnose intermittent problems involving up to 9 electrical sensors and devices plus the wiring itself, connectors, and grounding. A carburetor? You have the carburetor itself, the fuel petcock, fuel filter, and a VOES (vacuum advance). I've never had issues with a carburetor that came anywhere near the level of frustration I've seen in dealing with troubled EFI systems. And the worst was due to a rusting fuel tank that clogged up the carbs. That would have probably done in injectors too. It was easy to clean the carbs. How long would it take to figure out the injectors were dirty and needed cleaned or replaced? That said, the EFI on all my four wheeled vehicles has been virtually flawless and the Uly runs well too. So does the '97 Cyclone. Hot, cold, in between, it starts right up every time. | ||
| Tiltcylinder |
Remember to pass on the skills and knowledge you posess. I have young men who work for me that actually knew NOTHING about carbs. The last cars with carbs were made sometime around 1986, so a twenty two year old was born 4 years after the last car with a carb. I've got a wonderful, simple and easy to replicate demonstration: fill a cup half way with water, place a spray tube (the little red ones that come with carb or brake clean cans) into the water, blow air from a compressed air source across the top of the tube... voila... instant understanding. The low pressure allows the water to be pushed up the tube and the moving column of air atomizes it nicely. Gives off a spray like a fuel injector! They understand how it works instantly. Otherwise, take them out on a boat and let them look down the carb's throat (some sort of safety glasses would be nice) while you do a wide open pass on the water (probably the only motor vehicle you can do that with unless you've got a sidecar setup). Personally, I like carbs. With hand tools you can usually repair one enough to get home, no matter where you are, clay coated pizza boxes make great gaskets in a pinch and all thats really needed to clean one is a length of copper wire. Whereas, if my injected bike stops injecting...  | ||
| Hootowl |
Fuel injection is great: It does exactly what you tell it to do. Fuel injection sucks: It does exactly what you tell it to do. | ||
| Videoninja |
Away from the carb FI debate, that video was visually astounding my eyes had an orgasm | ||
| Geforce |
My dad was born in '39. I was born in '83. I learned everything I know about vehicles from my father. We still call each other and talk about engines, transmissions, oil and repair work going on in each of our garages. I always like to get him going about how difficult something is I'm working on and he will throw out... "Boy, I remember those old so and so cars/trucks/tractors..." I disagree with the man in the video as I wonder how large his view of the youth of America is when he spends so much time in his own little world. I think it's a great little world he has, but I really don't like the old bulky, heavy, inefficient designs of yesterday. It's almost like comparing a WWII aircraft to a modern day fighter. I have respect and admiration for those things that bring about the technology and designs of modern vehicles but I wouldn't necessarily trade my 1125r in for an older scooter. Even as a youngster, I realize the difference between appreciation versus infatuation. | ||
| Swordsman |
Dude, carbs are simple. There is a VERY limited number of things that can go wrong with it. Now sit down and count the various number of electrical gremlins that can plague an EFI system. EFI may be more efficient (at burning gas), but I wouldn't dare call them more reliable. Besides, Froggy's too young to even be in on this discussion. He didn't even know what points were until just recently, so his opinion is moot (that means "insignificant" or "questionable" in oldspeak  ). (j/k!) ~SM (Message edited by Swordsman on March 21, 2011) | ||
| Fast1075 |
Honestly looking at it from both sides...REPAIR of a carb problem is usually easy....but if you are setting up a carb, you definately need to know your way around pilot jets, air jets, bleed jets, emulsion tubes, needle taper and lenght, main jet, carb slide cutaway, choke or enrichener, and float level. But I never met a carb I couldn't tune as long as I had access to the parts, my trusty plug viewer and a handful of tools.  My fuel injection...not so much.... | ||
| Froggy |
An EFI vehicle will start in an instant, not in seconds in a best case scenario for a carb. I’ve NEVER seen a carb vehicle start on the first try or within 5 seconds of pressing the starter button.
This is a typical statement from someone that does not understand modern technology. You will be doing your child a serious disservice by restricting them and keeping them behind the curve. Kids these days can easily have a 2nd grade or higher reading level before they even step foot in a kindergarten class.
Correct. While Fast is busy fiddling with that carb, ruining gaskets, making a mess, I can adjust the cold start enrichment and check the air to fuel ratios without even removing my gloves.
But what if not starting reliably is normal? That’s the case for every carbureted vehicle I have ever seen. Kyrocket – With your situation, I think it should go both ways, show the kids the old stuff, let the kids show you the new stuff. Similar happens at my father’s shop, a 73 Eldorado came in because the windshield wipers weren’t working, I couldn’t figure out how to fix it. I did a quick continuity test and the motor was getting power, but it wouldn’t activate. My dad came over, quick tap of the motor with the back of a screwdriver and it was good as new. Later that day, a Porsche SUV came in for an oil change, the car was yelling at my dad in German that it still needed an oil change, he couldn’t figure out how to shut it up. Took me about 20 seconds to put the radio into system settings mode, find the option to switch everything into English, and then reset the oil interval.
That statement confirms that EFI is more reliable.
EFI wouldn’t leave you stranded, short of something major like a fuel pump failure, and then you would have the same issue with the carburetor.
Diagnostic equipment for a Buell ECU is easy to carry with you; in fact I always have it with me even if I am not on a Buell. Hell, you don’t even need to have it with you, Xopti has a system that will allow him to remotely monitor and adjust the EFI systems while you are 8 states away.
Depends on what kind of mechanic you are. I find carburetors to be unfriendly. I find that carbs either work or they don’t. If something is wrong with FI, usually the bike will still run, possibly at reduced power or in a limp mode. My Blast either works or it doesn’t, my XB would hiccup to tell me I have a bad ground.
Where? I never took a shop class; school got rid of it due to the insurance and safety risks. I wish they did offer it, so at least I would have basic fabrication skills. Our science labs did not have gas lines either.
I already replaced the boot, the old one had nothing wrong with it as far as I could tell, but I changed it anyway. It still is a pain in the ass to start. How do I do a compression test?
Pretty much. Times are changing, and the work involved has changed too.
Unix and coding are just as much around today as they were 30 years ago, and they aren’t going away anytime soon, especially with Linux based devises becoming more popular. I get what you are saying though, I joke with my co-workers about IRQ conflicts, having to load files into HiMem, configuring Autoexc to run programs correctly, manually setting motherboard jumpers to over clock the CPU, and having to pick the right sound card option to get Duke Nukem 3D to work with your Sound Blaster. The good old days before all the modern easy to use stuff that works like we got today
Couple reasons for that. Numbers – Other than the Blast, the majority of the bikes built by Buell were fuel injected. Even the most produced tube frame Buell was the X1, which is fuel injected. EPA – Some of the compromises to meet EPA compliance makes the bike run in ways people don’t understand People – Some end up mucking around with their bike, change pipes, start playing around with intakes, and then have no idea what they are doing with the ECM, and make things much worse. This is also related to the EPA thing, people will incorrectly try to circumvent something emissions related, and end up making things worse. It isn’t often I see an actual EFI system have a real issue on here that isn’t related to mucking around with the bike. There are a few weak spots on some bikes, including ECM placement and wire chaffing that can cause issues even on a stock bike.
Nightmarish if you don’t know what you are looking at. You can quickly and easily check the outputs of all the various sensors, and if something like the O2 was damaged, it will either throw an out of range trouble code, or when you look at the raw data you can see something is amiss.
How do you fix something when it won’t even give a hint of what might be wrong? I have a bike that for whatever reason will not start. Gas is getting into the motor (smell it), so is air, I have no way of checking spark, so I have to assume it’s good. I have no way of checking that the right amount of gas is getting into the motor, so I assume that’s good too. I have no way of making sure anything is working. It is an impossible to fix hit or miss system.
Not long at all, pop off an injector, do a test fire in diagnostic mode. It will either spray nice, or it will be apparent it needs a cleaning or replacement.
I still don’t. I am going to try your experiment, and see if that helps me understand it. It is all magic and voodoo to me. Gas magically enters the motor and it hopefully combusts.
Biggest issues with EFI as I mentioned before are user or design error. Assuming nothing is physically damaged due to an outside source, an EFI system should run flawless forever.
Hell, I still can’t believe that it actually works. After doing all the reading and looking at videos about it, I’d swear it was invented by a caveman to start campfires.
Please come here! I can alter an EFI system without effort, but this is lost on me. Good news is, even EFI is going to be a thing of the past soon, and I am starting to soak in as much as I can about electrics! | ||
| Blake |
You seriously don't know how to check the spark? Remove spark plug, ground it, crank engine, observe spark or no spark. That "pop the injector" sounds easy. But not so much. And if it is fouled, what to do? I can EASILY clean a carb. There are way too many threads here where folks are having a devil of a time diagnosing issues with EFI bikes. The self test is a nice idea, but often fails to provide resolution, because in the end, there are also a number of non-EFI factors that may be at fault. My Cyclone fires up as quickly as the Uly. Having to crank more than a second or two would indicate a problem, more than five seconds would be outrageous. In very cold weather, the Uly requires two starts. It will fire up then die; keeps running on the 2nd startup though. The carbed Cyclone just keeps running. If simpler is better, carbs win. Ever see an EFI chainsaw or weed wacker or push mower? Those little carburetors are amazing. | ||
| Blake |
>>> even EFI is going to be a thing of the past soon Care to wager on that? Check into the next generation of direct injection gasoline engines lately? WAY more efficient in fuel cycle compared to coal generated electricity. | ||
| Stirz007 |
Damn, Frank - you trying to pick a fight with everyone who posted? - I mean, did you leave anyone out? I'll play: (with no animus - nuttin' but love) "That statement confirms that EFI is more reliable." Actually, no it doesn't. There are lots of things that used to go wrong with vehicles that are lots more dependable these days - like tires, for example. "An EFI vehicle will start in an instant, not in seconds in a best case scenario for a carb. I’ve NEVER seen a carb vehicle start on the first try or within 5 seconds of pressing the starter button." I got that one beat: I have a 93" shovelhead (stroker), kicker only, magneto ignition (no starter other than my leg). I can start it on the first kick - cold. Bring it!! | ||
| Tiltcylinder |
Froggy, gas does actually enter the motor magicly. Only those of us who pray to the one great deity Camshaft, are allowed to make this happen for the rest of the hopeless mortals. Try the experiment. Move the air blower closer/ furter away, change the angle you point it at the tip of the straw. It's great lesson, just don't use fuel... BOOM! The float and needle setup just keeps the cup full. Everything else is just a way to squish the fuel into various 'tubes' and then control the air passing over them and the fuel exiting them. Don't get me wrong, I love my fuel injected bikes and cars. Starts first time (most every time). My 40 nyear old sporty starts just as easily. It takes quite a bit of time to properly 'jet' one, but once it's done... it's done. We had to learn as kids, the engine's noise, the smell of the exhaust, the color of the porcelain on the spark plug and how it felt in the seat of your pants. The ability to change a few numbers on a compooter screen and alter the ratios still amazes me. At work we can raise and lower max horsepower and even torque ratings on enormous diesel engines with no more than a laptop. As a kid I spent months porting cylinders with a file and sandpaper, reshaping needles with sand paper and a drill: all in the name of an extra horsepower or two from a 75 or 80cc two stroke. Blowing stuff up, ending up with someting that ran worse or that could only be started by being dragged down the street at 30 mph and then tossed into gear was not uncommon (of course a motor that screamed to twenty thousand rpm was kinda cool.. even if the tossed rod locked it solid at 60 or so). You lived, screwed about and learned while doing it. When you finally got it right... you would discover the dogs on your transmission's fourth gear couldn't handle all 12}} horsepower... thirty five years later my friends and I still laugh about those days. For a time I worked in a hot rod shop specializing in wiring. I rewired a lot of terrible things and corrected a lot of mis-assembled stuff, because the kids knew what to put in, but had no idea how to do it the right way. When assembled, I'd get it running... sort of, so bad it would make me cringe. The kid's would say "no problem, we just have to reprogram the curves now". A couple of days later... four hundred horsepower sleeper turbo accord. Amazed me that they couldn't put the parts in correctly, but could make them work once in place. I think that's the real lament in the video. I hung around the bike shop, cleaned customers bikes in exchange for machine work or parts and asked questions... lots of questions. I knew which machinist at a local machine shop would accept coffee and donuts to make me a part or straighten a fork tube, which body shop would weld a cracked frame or reposition a shock mount for the same 'price'. Kids were sent out of the house and not expected to return until mealtime or dark. These days it seems their free time is 'structured' or spent indoors... on... computers/games... acckkk... I'm being assimilated} | ||
| Ourdee |
All my Hondas would start first kick. The Buell is my first fuel injected bike. | ||
| Guell |
Froggy, do you know how to work on your bike and if you do, do you actually do it? My bike cranks right up, as quickly as fuel injected harleys. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
Had an old Ford truck(360,2V) on the lot that started so quick,you'd swear it didn't even make a full revolution..and this was in sub zero weather. Wonder what was wrong with that damned thing? | ||
| Fast1075 |
My Blast would start with a single stab of the button, hot or cold...every time....ask Buellistic. My Suzuki DRZ400 starts with a single stab of the button hot or cold every time...I pull the "choke" first if it is cold, then push it back in after a couple of seconds...but it is stab and go... I had a few Jeeps with Renix injection...you could count the motor turning over 8 times before they would fire...it was wake up jeep...(no)...come on wake up (uhunh)...come on...(crank crank)....well ok. It took that many rotations for the ECM to figure out all systems were go and turn on the injectors. They all did it....my lil ole Ford 2.5...is like a puppy...(can we go now, can we can we)...but my Lightning is a fissy biatch...if you don't let it warm up for several minutes, she shows her displeasure by bucking, snorting and generally misbehaving....one it is warm it is good to go except for the surging at low speed... | ||
| Birdy |
FI runs great BUT when it takes a dump you're at a stand still until you can hook a computer up to see where the problem is and then it's likely to cost big bucks to fix. A carb you can fix on the side of the road to at least drool gas into the motor and get you home. Just replaced the diaphragm in the carb on my KLR 15 mins and $50.00 and runs better than ever. Cost more than that to a TPS reset. BUT Very rare to have a FI croak on the road...usless you've been "Working" on it! ECM Spy may NOT always be your friend! | ||
| Danger_dave |
>>Care to wager on that? : ) << Yamaha plans on building 10 million electric scooters in the next 5 years. Harbingers r us. | ||
| Daves |
I have several carbed machines that all will start in under 5 seconds 62 Panhead with the stock carb off my 82 82 Shovelhead stroker with a S+S carb 08 Can Am Outlander Easy way to check for that intake leak. With motor running mist a little starter fluid or even WD40 by the intake boot, if engine speed goes up, you have a leak. | ||
| Greg_e |
He didn't pick on me, so no not everyone. | ||
| Teeps |
Here's a reading assignment.  | ||
| Darth_villar |
EFI is more efficient than Carbs. I would have to say that tuning a carb and maintaining it is a much simpler task than creating a fuel map. However, even the more sophisticated carbs cannot be adjusted to run separate AFRs at given loads. True, you can well enough tune a carb for WOT and idle within a few points, but EFI is much more programmable. EFI is definitely not user friendly. I consider myself pretty tech savvy, and it took reading a large book about EFI and custom ECM tuning before I had a firm grasp on it. I can definitely see us moving to Direct Injection for most vehicles, and more turbos. I would be interested to see a comparison in weight and power possible with a well built turbo bike instead of increasing displacement. My father is a mechanical delinquent, he never so much as changed the headlights on his cars. I only learned about repairing and maintaining motorcycles and cars because I had the desire to. You would be amazed at the amount of information available online and in books. Phil | ||
| Brumbear |
Fast a 389 tri-power will try a fella's patience though  | ||
| Froggy |
I'm too pissed off to post about it right now, but the Blast died on me on the highway coming home.  | ||
| Ohsoslow |
this past February the roads were clear and dry temp was about 40*F, the 1125 wouldnt even start after about 6 attempts i got pissed off, saw my carbureted dirt bike sitting in the corner hadnt been started since October, same old 110 octane gas and oil mix. flip the choke up 4 good kicks and she was popping and pinging away. froggy i think your lack of understanding how a carb works makes you think it is a bad system when, in reality, they are tried and true. also froggy check you gas tank for water, my blast was doing the same exact thing, it would run good for a couple of days then run like shit, found it had a large amount of water in the take. drained out the gas put some fresh in, it ran great. started up every time without incident. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Been there Brumbear...what will REALLY try your patience is a 1969-1970 Honda CB750 with a four gang throttle cable. Or if somebody buys a set of Lectrons or 33mm Mikuni smoothbores and expects to be able to run them on the street. (neither has actual idle circuits they idle by golly and by gosh). | ||
| Brumbear |
LOL | ||
| Swordsman |
LOL, I can't believe that not starting in 5 seconds is even being considered a valid point. I'm really starting to see a generation gap, I guess. The next generation obviously has ZERO patience. Complaining about 5 seconds. Sheesh. BTW, I've overlooked what your current carb issue is Froggy, but just in case, my father-n-law had a 225 Yamaha that he couldn't keep running. He worked and worked on the carb, but turned out that the gas cap vent had FUBARed, and was creating too much vacuum in the tank for the carb to get fuel. ~SM |
