| Author | Message | ||
     Davegess |
The Barton was based on a 500 cc Suzuki design if memory serves me; and it doesn't most of the time. The Barton guys knew a lot about GP practice at the time; they had worked on a lot of GP bits as most if not all the GP bikes of the era were built in England. I don't think, and this is purely my opinion, that they had a lot of experience neither with the details of two stroke engine design nor with the requirements for casting engine cases or many of the other more esoteric bits of hi-po engine design. Many of the issues they had go right back to not knowing what they didn't know. Two stroke engines of that era were developing rapidly and the Japanese, who had been kicked far ahead of the pack by the defection of the Eastern Bloc racer guy, where doing a lot of stuff that was pretty new. My recollection is that the European based Japanese race teams relied on the Japanese for all the engine design stuff while doing the chassis and suspension work and tuning the engines. Many of the parts that Erik purchased from Barton were unusable; magnesium engine cases that were porous, improperly machined cases and cylinders, etc. Every time Erik would get the engine running something would blow up. He would figure out what had caused the problem, fix the bit and than something else would break. Sometimes all the bits would be correct and an engine would hold up for a entire race; I think the Barton guys had a couple of pretty good results when all the pieces were correct and they all went together properly but this was rare. Nigel Rollason used one at the Isle of Man from ’79 to ’87 and managed a bunch of top 10 and even top 5 finishes. He was using an engine supplied by Erik when he won in ’86 and for half of that time period the engines we coming from Buell not Barton. Unfortunately Rollason continued to run it as a Barton Phoeinx during that time period. I talked with a half a dozen American sports car guys who bought those early Barton engines for D-Sport racing and, with the exception of the guy who was working directly with Erik, they all politely told me the engine sucked. Erik had that engine working very well at the end but by then it was too late. | ||
| Moxnix |
Was it a single crank or counter rotating twin crank or whut? Thnx. | ||
| Anonymous |
If big pockets build cheap bikes, why do H-D's cost what they do, Patches? | ||
| Davegess |
the RW was a square four, rotary valve engine with two counter rotating cranks, again relying on my old guy brain  | ||
| Swordsman |
Also @ Patches: Fischer is a tiny little smudge of a company, and while their bikes aren't considered world class, they seem competent enough and competitively priced. It can be done. If they had a bigger budget for marketing, I bet they'd really take off. ~SM (Message edited by Swordsman on June 08, 2010) | ||
| Glitch |
Erik returning to Harley? No. I did though, I needed some Formula+. | ||
| Davegess |
Big Pockets...There are many pockets out there deeper than Harley's. | ||
| Patches |
An Accountant might be able to explain it better than I can…. It makes it look better on paper (Fudging the Numbers) Putting the cost of doing somebody else’s Business on your books. At the end of the year when the Number Crunchers do the Budget thing and it looks like your Department spent more money than another Department did. Your Department is Budgeted more money the following year. Mo-Money is Mo-Money! | ||
| Patches |
"If they had a bigger budget for marketing, I bet they'd really take off." That’s Exactly what I’m talking about. | ||
| Patches |
“There are many pockets out there deeper than Harley's.” Yes, but how many with Dealer Network, OEM and Aftermarket Parts Supply System and don’t forget Name Recognition. Maybe FoMoCo (Ford) will get into the Motorcycle Business. | ||
| Fireboltwillie |
Maybe FoMoCo (Ford) will get into the Motorcycle Business.} blue ovals for everyone!!! | ||
| Davegess |
Patches all that stuff was part of what was supposed to make Buell work in the first place. Didn't work out very well did it. | ||
| B00stzx3 |
SVT Firebolt por favor  | ||
| Patches |
Dave you are right. My Opinion don’t mean anything, but I believe Erik Buell and BMC were victims of Bush running the Country into the Ground. Not Bashing Republicans, Bush had Plenty of help on the Hill. The MUT we have in Office now just plane LIED! Win on Sunday, Sale on Monday Really Does Work. At least it Use Too. | ||
| Froggy |
Worked on me, I bought two 1125's last year partly due to Danny Eslick. | ||
| B00stzx3 |
But racings a waste of money! Facts from the mouth of a noted golf enthusiast and/or douchebag | ||
| Court |
>>>>Who else would have Deep Enough Pockets to Fund Buell to keep Price Per Unit down? There are a host of folks. Two of them called me on October 15, 2009 and offered to "do the deal" immediately. Deep packets are not a problem there is more investment money on the sidelines, gripped in fear of what the current administration may do, that you can possibly imagine. >>>>If he Builds a bike that Cost more than $10,000.00 most here won't buy it. True of ALL motorcycles. It's no secret that the elasticity of demand curve goes sharply steeper at the $10,000 level. >>>Win on Sunday, Sale on Monday Really Does Work. At least it Use Too. Still true . . . . to an extent. Keep thine eyes peeled. | ||
| Spiderman |
But racings a waste of money! Facts from the mouth of a noted golf enthusiast and/or douchebag  | ||
| 46champ |
I'm in for one excess of $10,000 motorcycle just won't be able to do it very often. | ||
| Rohorn |
I've never had trouble affording $10,000.00 bikes. I just have to wait 12 years and buy them for $3000. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Reg, You're welcome. I appreciate that you accepted my comment as it was intended. G | ||
| Ratbuell |
>>>Win on Sunday, Sale on Monday Really Does Work. At least it Use Too. Still true . . . . to an extent. Keep thine eyes peeled. So Court...which Monday, pray tell, shall we keep alert for? I know *I* can't wait...and when that day comes I'll sell whatever I need to in order to become a part of that dealer network | ||
| Doug_s |
wow, reg, i am totally amazed at your double-speak. i was going to say i was amazed at your gift of doublespeak, but it's really easy to see right thru, so it's not so gifted, me-thinks. in your last post, where you finally acknowledge my thoughts, you say: What questions haven't I answered? no, I do not prefer the XR over the M2. As I wrote, given a choice I'd take neither. (Given a choice of all tubers ...it would be another S1) well... since i never asked any questions, i dunno what you haven't answered. all i was doing was responding to your incorrect assumption that no one has properly addressed your "definition" of "outperform". i did, as have others. yust take off your blinders... but, what does this statement mean?!? "...no, I do not prefer the XR over the M2..." huh?!? earlier, you go on and on about your "criteria" of "performance", even chastising those of us who didn't get it: My criteria re motorcycle performance might be different than many of yours. It has nothing to do with racing from property line to property line in Kansas, nor stoplight to stoplight in L.A. It does, however, have everything to do with the complete package: reliability, handling, brakes, quick/fast, and ergonomics. so, the m2 gets outperformed by the new 1200, by your definition of performance: you state the xr is a better "complete package". yet, you do not prefer it over the m2?!? ok - i get it - you prefer stuff that is less of a complete package! yeah, that's it! seriously - your statement that, given the choice between an xr & an m2, you'd take neither, and that you'd rather have an s1 over an m2 is a complete cop-out. completely irrelevant to the question at hand, which is whether or not you would prefer an xr over an m2. i, too, would prefer another tuber buell over an m2, which i prewiously stated - who wouldn't? but your statements are absurd - the xr outperforms the m2, by your definition of performance, yet you do not prefer it?!? then you get on our case for not understanding your criteria re motorcycle performance? ya, sure, whatever... it seems you yourself do not understand your own criteria of motorcycle performance. or, maybe there's some underlying motivation not to tick off the folks at h-d? hmmm.... doug s. | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
Doug, You seem intent on arguing. And I don't want to do that. If I have doublespoke, left things unclear, or otherwise confused the issue, I'll be happy to try to clarify things if that's what you'd like "...no, I do not prefer the XR over the M2..." My posts have revolved around the relative merits of each motorcycle, as I see them. Each has its strong points, but I can't force rank them, primarily because they are 14 model years apart. That is why I made that statement. "complete package" That I say this about the XR does not indicate my preference, one way or the other. When I evaluate a motorcycle, I look at its whole picture because my articles are intended to provide the reader with an objective view. And yes, sometimes I do "prefer stuff that is less of a complete package! yeah, that's it!" This is the case because, for me, a motorcycle is a very emotional purchase; and I think this true of many riders. I have a very recent example that illustrates this. In January, I bought a 2010 Ulysses, a motorcycle I've always liked very much. This was in addition to my '05 Multistrada, also a favorite. In April, I did a 2,200 mile evaluation of the KTM 990SM-T. Immediately after that, I came home and sold both the Ulysses and the Multistrada and bought the KTM. Now, in my opinion, the Ulysses falls into that "complete package" category. Wife and friends just shook their collective heads at me. I sold the "complete package" and bought a much more narrowly focused machine. So, yes, I sometimes do "prefer stuff that is less of a complete package!" "..the question at hand, which is whether or not you would prefer an xr over an m2." I didn't realize that this WAS the question at hand. I don't want either one, and I can see where you thought my S1 answer was a cop-out. If you want an answer, here it is, but like everything, it ain't exactly black & white: If I had to make the choice today, given the bikes I have in my garage, I'd choose the M2. Why? because it is an important part of American motorcycle history. If I did not have a motorcycle, and was forced to make the choice, I'd take the XR. Why? Because of its warranty, reliability, and parts availability. "it seems you yourself do not understand your own criteria of motorcycle performance. or, maybe there's some underlying motivation not to tick off the folks at h-d? hmmm.... " OK, I've taken your comments seriously, and have tried to address them. This one, however is absurd. If you have read anything I've written over the years, you would know that I am anything but an ass-kissing Harley acolyte. I respect The Motor Company, but I'm not a fan (I'm not a "fan" of anything). It has a great history, but it has also done some really stupid things, and is increasingly producing irrelevant motorcycles. If you'd like more of my views on this, hunt up my American Rider column titled, "Harley needs to get its head out of its past." If you'd like further clarification, I'll be happy to oblige. However, if the rest of the folks here are tiring of this they will let us know. If that is the case, you can contact me directly at reg.kittrelle@comcast.net, or call me at 831.234.0042 (Message edited by reg_kittrelle on June 09, 2010) | ||
| Bikertrash05 |
Wait a minute, did Bush just get blamed for Buell's demise?   | ||
| Doug_s |
reg, i for one, appreciate your further explanations. i really had no intent to argue. but, your prior statement were a bit ambiguous. i find your further clarifications helpful; hopefully others do as well. i really have no idea of your past/present/future relationship w/h-d - i was yust trying to make sense of what you were saying before... respectfully, doug s. | ||
| Cyclonedon |
Wait a minute, did Bush just get blamed for Buell's demise? not for the Buell demise but ever sense Bush went to York plant and had that picture of him sitting on that Harley, they sure have went in the crapper!!!  | ||
| Patches |
In 2000 George Walker Bush was elected President. The Company I Worked for had Over Ten Thousand Employees. By September 11, 2001 when the Planes hit the World Trade Center Employment Dropped to less than Two Thousand Employees. Today that Company Employs around Five Hundred. There is hundreds more Companies that went through this same change in this Area. Hundreds of Thousands Good Paying Jobs (AND Potential Buell Customers!) lost in less than ten years! I don’t just Blame Bush Alone but All Politicians in Washington Pachyderm and Jackass. The Current Administration not Doing Anything Too Bring those Good Paying Jobs Back Either. The MUT LIED! | ||
| 007blast |
i still dont see how one could blame W. even a little for the economic down turn after Sept. 11 man we are way off the thread topic here. | ||
| Swordsman |
Ginormous LOL @ Patches. If that's the way you want things to work, then I personally hold Obama responsible for H-D dropping Buell. I mean, he got inaugurated a mere 10 months prior, so he must be the cause. Right? Couldn't possibly be because your employer failed to adapt to economic changes. Mine's doing the same thing right now. We've closed plants left and right. Management has no clue what to do to stop the bleeding. Too many chiefs trying to justify their own positions and not enough indians to do the actual work. I swear we have more VPs than we do hourly employees. ~SM (Message edited by Swordsman on June 09, 2010) |
