| Author | Message | ||
     P_squared |
I'm still trying to figure out where in the Constitution it states that Congress can create a law mandating that I have to buy something to in effect be a citizen?  If I don't purchase, I'll be fined by the IRS. If I still refuse, prison & more fines. Just doesn't seem right to me.  But, since it's "for the kids," who am I to argue with their awesomely awesomeness that defies all bounds? <sarcasm> Let's roll!!! | ||
| M2me |
JCT Confirms Failure to Comply with Democrats’ Mandate Can Lead to 5 Years in Jail I've already covered that silly thing. Failure to pay your taxes can lead to jail. But that is true right now. That is not something that the health care bill introduces. Speaker Pelosi’s decision to leave in the jail time provision is a threat to every family who cannot afford the $15,000 premium her plan creates. That is just total nonsense. There is NO jail time provision in the health care bill. There is no $15,000 premium plan created. There are no "death panels". If someone is opposed to the bill, that's fine (it does have some legitimate shortcomings). But don't make stuff up. That's a waste of everyone's time and an insult to everyone's intelligence. That is why I don't trust most of the opposition to it. Most of the reasons given are pure fiction. It's just made up stuff. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Zactly! This thing is DOA once the Supreme Court gets hold of it. Now a STATE could require you to buy insurance, but the Federal Government can't. I think we will also see a review of the Interstate Commerce Clause as well. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a Constitutional Amendment convention soon. | ||
| P_squared |
There is NO jail time provision in the health care bill. Are you sure? I think you may be correct. I think there are provisions for jail time in the various IRS codes though. Remind me again how they plan on enforcing the enrollment criteria? IRS? Yup, no provision for jail time. Uh huh. | ||
| M2me |
The companies that offer it will simply go out of business. The bill itself is actually a boon to insurance companies. They are going to get a whole new crop of customers. True, some of them will be unhealthy and costly. But a lot of them will be healthy and profitable. If they are too poor to afford insurance it will be subsidized by the tax payers. Where are those subsidized premium dollars going to go? To private insurance companies. This is one of the legitimate criticisms of the bill. In a way it is corporate welfare. Only people in the public option should be subsidized. But that's not the way the bill works. Subsidized dollars can go to private companies. Those private companies are getting customers who otherwise could not afford their product. Taxpayers will subsidize the purchase. | ||
| P_squared |
And if I don't want to subsidize anyone outside of my immediate family? If I don't want to get insurance for a year, because rates have gone up but I make too much to be subsidized, remind me again of what happens? Do I get to experience that non-existent jail time provision courtesy of the IRS after being fined for not purchasing something? Folks really don't see anything wrong with that? | ||
| Paw |
paw wrote>>> How many people think it is a bad thing that millions of children who were not covered will finally get health care coverage they need Ferris wrote>>> Show me the dying children !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where are they? Where in my original post or in this statement did I say dying children? Make sure you read the post closely...I said the millions of children will finally get the health insurance they need. Someone also said>>> How come millions of children do not have health coverage. Here is why there is always people on unemployment, there are people who are self-employed like sub-contractors and there are cheap ass businesses out there who do not offer health insurance to their employess...Guaranteed the owners of those businesses have coverage. Check this out if unemployment rate is at 1% that is 2.5 million people with out coverage and how many of them have kids? Not to mention some never find another job like they had that pays what they were making and have to take a job that does not offer insurance. | ||
| P_squared |
Only 1 little problem with that Paw...didn't they already pass an expanded S-CHIP for the "uninsured children?" Wasn't that the reason S-CHIP was so "important" and "had to be passed" originally? So you're telling me the new S-CHIP was a piece of $h!t and we need ANOTHER new piece of legislation to insure the "millions of uninsured children" who were covered by S-CHIP? Really? Maybe I'm just too dense & I'm missing something really obvious here. Please enlighten me. | ||
| M2me |
I'm still trying to figure out where in the Constitution it states that Congress can create a law mandating that I have to buy something to in effect be a citizen? The health care bill doesn't mandate that you buy anything. If you don't have health care insurance your taxes will go up. It's your choice. But to have universal coverage we need universal payment. Everybody has to pay into the plan. This will reduce costs in the long run. | ||
| Paw |
S-CHIP is not available to everyone just ask my sister!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| P_squared |
If you don't have health care insurance your taxes will go up. It's your choice. Some "choice" isn't it? Again, please show me where it says Congress can mandate that I must purchase something or be penalized via taxation? But to have universal coverage we need universal payment. Everybody has to pay into the plan. Sounds like a mandate to me. But I guess I'm just simple like that & not very good with nuance. | ||
| P_squared |
S-CHIP is not available to everyone just ask my sister!!!!!! So then it's a piece of $h!t legislation that failed to meet the goal it was touted for? Is that what you're saying? And you expect this new legislation to fix what the piece of $h!t legislation was supposed to fix? Well alrighty then. If anyone needs me, I'll be reloading. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The bill itself is actually a boon to insurance companies. They are going to get a whole new crop of customers. True, some of them will be unhealthy and costly. But a lot of them will be healthy and profitable. If they are too poor to afford insurance it will be subsidized by the tax payers. Where are those subsidized premium dollars going to go? To private insurance companies. This is one of the legitimate criticisms of the bill. In a way it is corporate welfare. Only people in the public option should be subsidized. But that's not the way the bill works. Subsidized dollars can go to private companies. Those private companies are getting customers who otherwise could not afford their product. Taxpayers will subsidize the purchase. No, the plan offers a "public option" that is unimpeded by the incumberances of profitability. The "public option" will compete WITH the insurance companies. So you really think that people will choose a more expensive option to private insurance? Forcing people to pay for something they don't want with results that are questionable at best is foolish and, Constitutionally speaking, illegal. The results will be worse than ANYTHING we've had to date. Social Security $15T deficit Medicare $34T deficit The $34 trillion problem The track record speaks for itself. | ||
| Swordsman |
Once the realities of this set in and people actually start experiencing the ramifications... I believe this will be the trigger that sets off the real riots. People are currently displeased. They're about to be full blown pissed. Imagine that march on DC, but all riled up. Our mighty leaders had better keep their bodyguards close by. ~SM | ||
| Sifo |
The "public option" will compete WITH the insurance companies. And this get to he point I made in the tire tariff thread. When a powerful government like China uses it's power to compete against tire manufactures the left considers it a bad thing that needs to be fought with tariffs. BO is doing the exact same thing, using the power of the US government to "compete" against insurance providers. It's the exact same thing! Now the left thinks this is a good thing. Hypocrisy is not a principle! | ||
| Cityxslicker |
The idea its a boon for insurance is a fallacy of ill logic. It will undoubtably increase the numbers of applicants applying for insurance. And these are individuals that werent insured before?.... Why? For all of the cost containment, due diligence, and morbidity performance issues that they werent before. The forty year old fatty fatty with the heart attack should be rated at a different premium level than the 25 year old male with no kids, non smoker, non married, no previous health concerns. Each one of those facets is a concern that drives cost and directly affects the rates, there are over a hundred years of actuarial charts to support those differences and over 60 years of computer modeling (the insurance industry was the first commerical application of military grade computing devices) These are risks that the insurance company doesnt want because of the cost of return on investment from poor behaviour of the enrollees. If you require them to add them to the rolls, with out a premium adjustment, without wait times for preexisting conditions (which in washington they have had that law on the books since 1996, so I have direct experience with what is going to happen) You will see them leave the industry, or abandon that segment of coverage. (good , evil bad insurance companies deserve to fail ! murder them all! the pitchfork masses proclaim~ and I would agree with you on the shiat like the AIG bailout. If a company cant make it on its own merits it is not the governments/taxpayers job to prop it up. Its called capitalism for a reason, suk it up, get out, declare your bankrupcy and get on with it; certainly dont pay yourselves million + bonuses for your failed efforts !) MORONS. You will see a thinning of the heard. Your commercial choices will be limited, and you will see more HAVING to go to govt run policies to avoid 'criminal' behavior. and then it will perform just like the well oiled machines of Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, Health & Human Services and Center for Disease Control. And if you want a clear timely example of how govt health care is failing look no further than the distribution, and implementation of the vaccine for H1N1. Wheres my conscientous objector clause? This is the equivelant of a 'medical forced conscription' How do I know ... Washington state implemented several of these requirements in 1996, since then 18 insurance companies have left the state or dropped that product line of coverage because it wasnt profitable any further. These regulations are why there isnt any real choice for an individual plan that is affordible, works well and has good access. Remember, you voted it for the 'Change' america; welcome to the USSA. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I wonder if they will safe haven carve out regions to opt out, like Nevada gets prostitution and Gambling.... Grand Cayman as different banking rules, Native American reservations are NOT sovereign US soil and should be exempt. ..... Where the F is my opt out of this >? Jail time cant be the only answer. (they dont have enough cells in the nation ;0) ) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The "opt out" is possible. We just have to figure out where to move to. I hear parts of Mexico are nice. | ||
| Swordsman |
I've always wanted to go to Ireland. Good eats, good beer, great music and beautiful country. OR, we could just vote the sombitches out and find a better crop. Hell, I've lightly tossed the idea around of getting into politics just for that reason, but I'm sure they'd find all my adult forum memberships and it'd be a waste of time. For some reason you can't be a freedom loving patriot AND a perv. Go figure. ~SM | ||
| Oldog |
when are they up for re election? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
2010 is going to be magic for taking out the trash. | ||
| 46champ |
when are they up for re election? next November | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Nope, nobody over turned Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, .... You get an a created govt beaurcracy with staff and you aint ever gonna kill it off, despite its performance. (it might get merged into a bigger behemouth, but its goals, assets and hierarchy will remain) Homework. Name one Agency/Bureau/Department that has been KILLED since 1930. Off to google.  I hear Russia is nice, they even embrace a thing called capitalism. | ||
| Didactic |
I am happy to subsidize others' health care if they can't afford it...I'm just nice like that I guess. I also don't care if the insurance companies go out of business, I don't think healing the sick and helping people live healthy lives should be a for-profit enterprise. I may be an atheist-ish sort of person but I always like the bit in the holy books about that dude walking around barefoot healing and feeding the sick and poor while not charging a dime...a total leftist pinko liberal if ever I read of one. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I dont have a new car, I cant get to work with out one, how will I feed house and clothe my children? You should all get together and buy me a car so I can contribute to the society. There aught to be a government agency that grants cars to people that cant afford them, a motor vehicle is not a luxury, it is a necessity, its a right as an American. Think of all the children not able to get to soccer practice, and the torture that must be endured by coordinating mass transit to get errands and shopping done. And surely you cant expect me to get things done in off scheduled hours as the things stand now. Its just tradgic. Oh, and not that 1993 Ford either, They should steal the money from my richer neighbors, the greedy corporations, and people that work to pay for a new Green Hybrid  Plus it will help the down economy, especially if everyone gets new cars.... | ||
| Didactic |
Hey City, its called a "bus", and we already provide those to you...and thats for running errands and getting to work, not saving a life or keeping your family members healthy. Oh, but thats not as important as getting to 7-11 for a Slurpee... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I don't think healing the sick and helping people live healthy lives should be a for-profit enterprise. I think the thousands of physicians in this country who have spent a decade or more securing the specialized education and racking up hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans would have a hard time justifying their sacrifice were it not for a for-profit enterprise. PS. If you receive payment for your labor, you are a for-profit enterprise. | ||
| Sifo |
I am happy to subsidize others' health care if they can't afford it...I'm just nice like that I guess. I have no problem with you doing that. In fact I would applaud that. That is called charity. What you want to do though is subsidize others health care with MY money. That's socialism. We don't do that well here. On second thought it's not really done well anywhere. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
Just got nicked today with a 41% increase for my health care premiums(HSA).The group people got hit for 45%. What's up with that? HR guy said it was partially fueled by the current heath care politics. | ||
| Swordsman |
Probably current companies panicking and trying to milk the last few years for all they're worth. Nobody said current healthcare was GOOD. Insurance companies are greedy corporate bastards, make no mistake. The problem we have is with the way it's being done. This cure could every well be worse than the illness over time. |
