| Author | Message | ||
     Teddagreek |
I know there was a attempt a few years back to Unionize Buell... They came pretty close and were coming back.. IMO A unionized East Troy would have been a harder to kill? Buell was still profitable and the Unions would have gone to War over closing a working/profitable company, for no reason... I'm pretty certain Union HD workers got better deals going out then East Troy workers got.. I'm pissed and sad on so many levels... I'm off to see my Step Dad, the old codger broke his hip this week..  (Message edited by Teddagreek on October 16, 2009) (Message edited by Teddagreek on October 16, 2009) | ||
| Rotorhead |
A man that runs a company with the core values of Buell they have NO need for a union. The Buell Values: TELL THE TRUTH BE FAIR KEEP YOUR PROMISES RESPECT THE INDIVIDUAL ENCOURAGE INTELLECTUAL CURIOSITY | ||
| Dobr24 |
Oh God tell me you did not post this! | ||
| Jb2 |
The NON-Union status of Buell was one of the things I really liked about the company and the products. Independent people willing to stand on their own two feet, being passionate and responsible without the need for a union safety net. Unions are an arm of socialism. I choose freedom. | ||
| Jaimec |
Rotorhead has it right. Jb2 is off the mark. If management takes care of its workers, there is no need for a Union. Workers unionize when management starts trying to take advantage of them. Then the ball swings the other direction. | ||
| Buelltours |
maybe the union at HD were the reason of Buell closing? Maybe it was just easier to cut cost closing the non union arm than "negotiating" with the brotherhood? I know of similar happenings in the automotive industry these days. I also strongly believe that a well run company does not need their workforce "managed". Good companies know how to do this themselves. I am sure the Elves are and were proud to be a part of Buell, not a part of Local XYZ. And what is the connection between union and socialism? I don't get that. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
The Union would have fought for Buell. Whether or not it would have helped will never be known. At this point it really doesn't matter. Buell, as we know it, is gone forever. Buell was a great company. But you all seem to forget one major item. Erik didn't own Buell. H-D did. And I can guarantee you, the Union had nothing to do with Buell being closed. It came from management. It's that cut and dry. | ||
| Kilroy |
Buell would not have been profitable, or near profitable, if it were union. It would have been gone long ago. Kilroy | ||
| Mikethebike72 |
The Buell Values: TELL THE TRUTH BE FAIR KEEP YOUR PROMISES RESPECT THE INDIVIDUAL ENCOURAGE INTELLECTUAL CURIOSITY BTW, those are HD values also. I carry a card with them on it in my wallet from my Rider's Edge training. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
A Union could have saved Buell. That would be inaccurate. The union is getting very close to closing the York Pa. plant as well. (Message edited by gentleman_jon on October 16, 2009) | ||
| Badlionsfan |
As a union steward (same IAM union HD is in), I can say with pretty good certainty that it wouldn't have changed anything, except for one thing (I'll get to that later). Unions don't run companies, management does. A union does not have the power to tell a company they can't shut down a portion of their operation or all of it for that matter. My industry is a perfect example of that. As my BA (union Business Agent) likes to say, the original National Master Freight Agreement (NMFA) was "a thing of beauty." Hoffa Sr and his cronies left no stone unturned in that NYC phone book size document. There weren't many people that had it better than a Teamster freight truck driver. EVERY company worked under the same agreement, talk about having some serious pull right? Well, decades later, those dozens of companies are now basically 2. Many big companies went down, the biggest being Consolidated Freightways. They were so big they built their own tractors, now known as Freightliners (now part of Daimler AG). Anyway, Labor day 2002 was the end of line for CF. The 15,500 got a recording on Labor Day, and this is the quote-- "Thank you for dialing in on this holiday weekend," he said. "I hope you and your family are enjoying the time together. I have some extremely urgent and sad news to share with you today…Your employment ends immediately." There was nothing that the Teamsters could do. There's a lot more background on CF, but it's not important now. My point is unions don't have the power they once had, and they never had the power to manage a company. OK, now onto what I said could have been different. Depending on the contract terms, and if they would have been under the same contract as the HD people, the Buell employees may have been able to transfer to Harley. This would all have been based on rules of seniority and if they would have had a transfer article in event of lay-off, temporary or permanent. The downside to this scenario is of course any eligible transfers would have bumped junior men at HD, so the number of lay-offs wouldn't likely change and Buell would still be gone. Now that I've actually typed all this out, I realized I just babbled for a long time, when the short answer is "no, a union wouldn't have changed a damn thing." | ||
| Odie |
IMO- a union wouldn't have helped Buell at all. Especially since they didn't need one to begin with. I agree a well run company doesn't need an added layer of control from a union. I think it's a poor | ||
| Court |
The union withdrew it's petition at Buell. If you think the union would save the place . . . hurry over to the Harley-Davidson York Plant. I'm sure they will want to talk to you. Be mindful that less than 100 Buell employees will loose jobs, may will be picked up at Harley-Davidson. Harley-Davidson has laid off thousands of unionized workers in the last year.
Note that the "wave of turnover included folks who were canned for the stupid MV Agusta deal. I hope . . . .if I ever do what Tom Bergman did . . . my employer is to gracious as to list me as having "steped down". Buell . . . was/is the LEAST of Harley-Davidson's current concerns. | ||
| Swordsman |
When unions get too uppity, management just shuts the plant down and moves it. H-D IS shutting it down. Same outcome, with or without a union. ~SM | ||
| Jb2 |
Just to clarify... Go to any socialist country and you will be required to join a trade or labor organization if you wish to have a job doing anything but common labor. They take your dues(taxes) in exchange for the right to work. There was a time unions were needed in the U.S. but labor laws should have made them obsolete years ago. They have a history of ALWAYS supporting liberal and socialists agendas and candidates in the U.S. My opinion may be misguided to those who support unions but in my mind, based on facts and personal history, they do more damage than good. Just my .02  | ||
| Odie |
I hate doing this on my Crackberry! I'm also in the same union as the HD workers. I'm not a union fan and think my dues go into the pockets of people that could care less about the workers themselves. But really- what could they have done? Nothing..... | ||
| Bikertrash05 |
As a laid off HD worker, I am going to respond to all the posts above. (*edit* the first 11 posts) 1. Teddagreek, no. 2. Rotorhead, if the company actually follows them, yes. 3. Dobr24, LOL 4. Jb2, I agree. 5. Jaimec, see 2, and after the ball swings the other direction, it swings back. 6. Buelltours, no, HD has been laying off every quarter without a fight. 7. Rocketsprink, I would like to think so, but after the thousands of HD workers getting dumped, what is another 80. Good post. 8. Kilroy, I agree. 9. Mikethebike72, see 2. 10. Gentleman_jon, I agree. 11. Badlionsfan, I agree. (Message edited by BikerTrash05 on October 16, 2009) | ||
| Badlionsfan |
As I said, I'm a steward. I'm not pro-union and I'm not anti. I'm pro choice. I have seen both sides of the union debate in my industry. I can see good things and faults with either system really. Nothing is perfect. This isn't the time to debate the need of unions. Point is, there's nothing a union could have done to prevent HD dropping the Buell brand. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
If they don't step it up in York... they will be looking for jobs soon. | ||
| Teddagreek |
If you guys don't mind me asking what is Unionized HD employees severance? If I remember correctly Buell employees will get 1 week pay for every year they have been employed.. How does that compare to layed off HD workers? Call me an empathetic pu**y I don't care.. I really feel bad about Buell's Employees ... | ||
| Bikertrash05 |
Only if due to a plant closing, then the same. Lay off as many people as you can before you close the plant is the strategy. | ||
| Badlionsfan |
We all feel bad about the employees, we're just being realistic about the power a union would have had to change things. As far as the workers in York go, if HD wants to talk concessions, this should make them listen. I could give a crap less about HD right now, but I don't want anymore working class people (especially union brothers) lose their jobs. I just went thru concession negotiations and voting a few months ago. It's a pretty bad feeling, but HD is obviously very serious about saving money, weather it's logical or not. | ||
| Pjd2ss |
One question: If Buell was still profitable, why not try and spin it off rather than close it? Couldn't Erik have gotten some kind of agreement with Harley to still use the dealer network (at least until something better for Buell could get into place)? Could Buell (with something in the $50-$100 million in sales a year) really not stand on its own? | ||
| Richsm2 |
with unions there was health care, pay increment,retirement,(before the 401k idea,brillant) when they left the reason for these left also,the only unions now are in government jobs that maintain these. now what, and that not being enough, the money just flowed to the DESERVING top (we were not worth our pay anyway we only made the product), see any CEO bonuses, ultimately sending the jobs to china ( hey every one is doing it)or being on the left coast it was brought it to us. So to remedy this just LAYOFF every one WITHOUT possible rehire(the factory is closed remember) HOPE,change | ||
| Oddball |
Pjd2ss, HD's excuse for not offering up Buell was it was too intertwined in their system. They didn't want to have outsider access to their supply network etc. With as much lawyers and confidentiality agreements they are said to apply to all working for them it looks like they could come to an arrangement that would allow short term access during a transition of supply. Bind all of the micro Buellerships with gag orders or whatever they're called so that they couldn't reveal anything they might learn about the system. Not sure why the supply listings couldn't be separated out so the access points from these new dealerships would only see buell parts and nothing to do with hd's stuff. | ||
| Teddagreek |
Too intertwined my ass, We need to call my first wife's attorney...  | ||
| Paw |
"hurry over to the Harley-Davidson York Plant. I'm sure they will want to talk to you". I lived in York for 30+ years before moving to NY and most of time Harley and that union went into negotiation it ended in a strike...The employees at the Harley plant are just greedy...In a time like this they have to think of their families and get the contract resolved...I still have many close friend who work there and I hope they are not going to be bull headed...Harley could easily head down south say to N.C. The state with the least amount of unionized labor work forces in the U.S.A.. Those guys and gals at the York plant will never find a job that pays what they are making any where with in 40 miles. It's a give and take, the place they need to hold their ground the most is there hourly rate and medical benefits...With out your health you can't work and with big paycut you can't provide like you once did before...Don't be greedy...Greed is what killed the union at CAT!!! | ||
| 4cammer |
The union would have fought for Buell? Please. Unions don't fight for a company, they fight for their jobs in spite of a company. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Wandell said the company plans to decide the fate of its York, Pa., manufacturing facility in December. The company has said that the plant, which employs 2,300 people, isn't competitive. It's considering new sites in Kentucky, Indiana and Tennessee | ||
| Blake |
Ted, Buell employees get 12 weeks severance pay PLUS one week's pay for every two years of service. So a 10 year employee would get 12+10/2=17 weeks of severance pay. That in addition to two month notice, so effectively 26 weeks, half a year to find another job. |
