Posted on Saturday, September 05, 2009 - 03:56 pm:
I hope they dont give them any plans or ideas as they would lie in 30 days they would say it was thier idea. I had rather see them continue to make a ass out of thier self.
Posted on Saturday, September 05, 2009 - 11:14 pm:
Rocco,
Why doesn't competition help keep prices in line?
If profit motive is the cause of high prices, why don't we see that in the rest of the economy, cars, bikes, auto insurance, cell phones service, electronics, food, booze, clothing, sprinkler systems...?
Why is it ANY different for health insurance?
Again, their profit margin runs around 4%. So if you take away their profit, you'll save 4%.
Now give the job of running the industry to the government. Then you'll see half the efficiency, so twice the people to run it and twice the graft and corruption. The service will go to hell, and the prices will not drop. AND it will become yet another partisan means to manipulate American voters.
I'm surprised you have nothing to say in response to the prescription drug situation. You okay with Canada paying less than we do?
Posted on Saturday, September 05, 2009 - 11:21 pm:
Rocco,
Your response, or really lack thereof, to the issues raised is sipmly that you "don't agree". Why? Take them one by one and tell us why? Are you willing to debate thoughtfully? Frankly, they way you are behaving come across as VERY rude and flippant. You brought the issue up, you ought to show some respect and engage the issues. One by one. Pick one and we'll go with it first.
The same mindset that says that "greed" is the problem with healthcare also believes that "greed" is the problem with corporate America and why unions are necessary.
The same mindset has a hard time seeing both LABOR and HEALTHCARE as a product with market forces determining the price.
I do believe something should be done about health care. Do I think the government should provide it? Heck no! Instead I think the govt should mandate prices on medical insurance, drugs and doctors visits and such to make it more affordable.
My mother and step father are between a rock and a hard place with medical insurance. His job does not offer any kind of insurance benefits and it seems for them to go out and buy there own medical insurance it would cost them a great deal more then they can afford on a monthly basis. It would be cheaper for them to put the amount of money a month it would cost them for medical insurance into a savings account and pay cash for a medical problem.
I assume I am a conservative only because it seems that i share the same views as the people that are called conservatives but i think the liberal and conservative terms are backwards. It looks to me like the "liberals" want the government to run every thing and the conservatives are the ones that want people to be free so those words to me do not fit very well.
Conservative/liberal are labels whose meanings have changed a bit. What some call liberal is actually progressive. Liberal people still exist, ( mostly as conservatives with a yen toward equality of opportunity, and freedon of speech, religion, etc. )
Around the turn of the century (19-20th) a new religion began. Based on marxist concepts of "fairness" and "social justice" it was called "progressive" to conceal the fact that it was really a fascist/communist/totalitarian revolutionary movement.
Now if you care to argue the difference between fascist & communist, based on the ownership vs. control of the "means of production", go ahead. No country has ever been "pure communism" and no group of people larger than a commune or Kibutz has ever come close to the ideal.
Marx wanted a "temporary committee" to run things while the ignorant peasants were enlightned. Once everyone understood their place in the great machine, enlightened self interest would allow a perfect anarchy, with cooperation & happiness. ( anyone noticing that anarchy & cooperation don't work? go to head of class ) No "temporary committee" ever disbands as marx wanted. Enlightened self interest tells a reasonable man to run away from the dictators that inevitably find they have to slaughter their own people to stay in power.
Fools who admire the "free health care" and nice order of places like Cuba or the Soviet hells, completely miss the children trained as informants, the little old ladies who now are paid to gossip on their neighbors, to the secret police, and the really high percentage of people who are not showing happy faces on the streets, because they are either in labor camps, or buried. Look up "potempkin village".
Now, "modern american progressives" deny they want totalitarian rule over all. You can tell them by their "smarter than thou" attitude, intolerance for dissent, and anger at questions. The "progressive" appeal is emotional, not rational, and is usually based on envy & hate. Oh, and they always deny they want to be the absolute rulers of the place, while they obviously are doing their best to be overlords.
You know, the kind of people who tell you they love you, but those evil scum making over an arbitrary $250,000 are going to PAY!
(Message edited by aesquire on September 06, 2009)
Blake, I do A LOT of work at Abbott Labs. I see, first hand the waste of money there. Money they charge us for their product. Total remodel of office buildings not in use. CEO that make 26.5 million a year. It's ridiculous.
I don't believe in the health care savings account.
How can you not see that competition controls price?
You really think insurance companies only make a 4% profit? How does United Health care pay out 5 billion in dividends then?
Kinda hard to have the Government mandate prices when they deal with the pharm manufactures to NOT bargain for prices. And Obama is continuing that stupid idea.
"The same mindset that says that "greed" is the problem with healthcare also believes that "greed" is the problem with corporate America and why unions are necessary."
I see you agree with the Greenspan theory of the "market regulating itself" See where that got us? I believe you, FB, are feeling the affects of that theory, are you not?
Me being rude? Well, I don't appreciate being called illiterate, that's for sure.
Do I have the answers? No. Do I think the Government IS the answer. A big NO. But what I DO KNOW is , if left as is, more people will lose their insurance, more people will forgo treatment until it's to late, more people will lose everything because of astronomical bills that can't pay. When do we start to care about our own? I'm not implying free health care. But affordable. Not everyone can afford what's out there. Some are doing the best THEY can, but still can't afford it? They are less American then those that are better off? What's the difference between a government that physically kills in citizens and one that ignores it's citizens and allows them to die because they can't get health care? Not much in my book.
Please don't take my non responsiveness as rudeness. Trying to enjoy what's left of summer here in WI.
You really think insurance companies only make a 4% profit? How does United Health care pay out 5 billion in dividends then?
I believe it's VERY reasonable. Let's do some math.
Let's say that UHC covers 20,000,000 people, or 7.5% of the population. They probably cover 2 to 3 times that many, but let's be conservative.
Let's say that the average premium is $2,500 per person per year. It's probably 3 times that, but let's be conservative.
That would be $50,000,000,000 in gross revenue.
Most insurance companies have a loss ratio of 75%, so of the $50,000,000,000 gross revenue, the insurance would get to keep $12,500,000,000.
Let's assume that 60% of the net revenue is burned up in operations, marketing, administration, sales expenses, etc. It's probably closer to 80%, but let's be conservative.
That would leave $5,000,000,000 in net profits available to pay dividends.
I don't know if their profit margin is 4% or not, but $5,000,000,000 compared to the gross premium they collect each year is a very small margin.
Aye caramba!. Rocco's feelings are still hurt! I retracted that you are illiterate and clarified that you don't know how to read. I listed nine points and then you said I didn't. I reposted them and you still can't respond to them. You obviously can't or won't read. You then bleat that your feelings are hurt by sobbing to Blake. Get over it and start debating. Odie is correct in that you are adept at hurling emotional epithets at others which makes your protestations a tad hypocritical.
Nuff said. Here are some more ways to reform health care. I have written them in invisible bits that apparently only so called "Right Wingers" can read.
* Legislate that Congress receives the same Health Care that we will get after the government seizes control.
* Prosecute Medicare/Medicaid fraud.
* Make Incentives for doctors to be general practitioners instead of specialists.
One of the common rebuttals is that Greed is the source of the problem. The term is usually hurled in emotional exuberance and hatefulness in spite that the facts speak the opposite.
This has been debated to death but greed coupled with ethics and proper regulation leads to innovation of new drugs, medical breakthroughs, and inventions that some might have considered impossible not too long ago.
The opposite of "greedy" insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, and medical equipment manufacturers is to have socialized medicine controlled by the government where innovation is stifled because there is no money in it. That corral is filled with apathy, inefficiency, and no accountability. Is that what people really want? Really?
Take a trip to your local DMV if you want to see the future of health care if we go down that path.
I think Court already brought this up but it is worth repeating.
Why are Unions backing Obamacare? Unions tend to have the best health plans around and they stand to lose them just like everyone else when the Government Seizure of Health Care comes to its logical conclusion. Obamacare is against their self interest and I find it puzzling why the Unions are on board.
The Union leadership will get quality health care but the rank and file will get screwed just like everyone else.
Greed. Too funny. The administration before during and after the stimulus talk about greedy wall street and banks and say main street needs a bailout. Then they send acorn out to some of the greedy ceo's homes to appear they are sticking it to the man. Then what happens? Ceo's and banks go on lavish get aways and report record profits all made possible by government.
Social Security officials go on an expensive get away funded by US even though they are in the hole! Let us run healthcare they say!?!?
How many in the administration can be tied to wall street and banking industries and have had lucrative careers? Find out and then run your trap about greedy conservatives!
I could be wrong like I usually am but the way I see it the unions would be a hell of a lot more competitive in the market place if the government takes over. First they will shed a substantial chunk of contribution from their hourly rate. Second the government will be raising the bar on companies who are not currently paying health care contributions. It looks like a good way for unions to realign themselves with the market
That's one word for them. A local union down here has excellent benefits for which the member pays a VERY fair price for the quality of health care they receive. However, the Company wanted to put an offer on the table 11 months prior to scheduled negotiations. The union was adamant about refusing it. The company wanted to give some pinpointed employees a substantial raise so they could attract more in that particular field. The union was totally against it. The Company tweaked a few things and told the union this was the best and final. Union said no. A week later, after the union people actually looked at the offer, they wanted to have another meeting and accept the offer. Company said stick it and waited until negotiations. What the union and it's members got wasn't as good as the original offer. Their health care costs went up a lot more than they planned on. Pin pointed employees still got their raise too. I can't believe how poorly the union communicates with it's members. Again, I can't see how the "enemies" are supposed to operate together to get anything accomplished or produced......
As for the "greed" issue, every political party is culpable. Thinking it's confined to a particular industry is short sighted, and/or uninformed.
Whoa back a bit, I never said it was just your healthcare system, & I certainly never pointed a finger either way. Just stated the obvious.
Your whole way of life in the US is based on the same principle isn't it? Freedom to compete for the biggest slice of the pie or not. A democratic system where everybody is equal & gets their chance to vote for the candidate of their choice. And if that candidate is found to be wanting the voters have the opportunity to replace him/her after a relatively short space of time.
Did I get that wrong?
Your economy appears to be based around litigation. Everybody goes in fear of being sued. you have far more lawyers per capita than anywhere else in the world.
Why?
GREED.
People will sue to make a buck. Look at that stupid woman who crashed her RV because she left it on cruise & went back to the galley to make coffee. A million dollars & a new RV. Or the woman who famously sued McDonalds because her coffee was hot!
Companies have to carry insurance against those sort of risks.
Because so many people are looking for a big payday.
Healthcare professionals are right in the firing line on this one so the insurance costs are horrendous.
The costs have to paid somewhere & it gets passed down to the bottom of the pile. To be sure those that are doing the passing will add on their "administrative charge".
And so it goes.
Is that a fair summing-up or am I being anti-somebody?
Companies have to carry insurance against those sort of risks.
Precisely why no reform will truly BE reform without TORT reform.
These multi-million dollar payouts to individuals need to stop. Giant settlements because it's more costly to defend yourself - even if you did nothing wrong - need to stop. The system is choking on its own lawyers.
As long as there is the potential for a HUGE settlement or a HUGE payout in "punitive" damages, lawyers will keep encouraging people to sue.
Eventually, I suppose, once everyone sues everyone, we'll all be even again. But our insurance rates will be so high we won't get to enjoy it!
Insurance dehumanizes the act of suing. It's ok to sue him - his insurance will pay. Well, yes, that's true short-term, but long term, EVERYONE pays.
We're just not long-term type of people anymore I guess.
It is tough to not be swayed by large numbers. Better to use percentages to avoid the shock of large numbers.
What is the total capitalization of the stock? What was the sales total for the company? What percentage of that does the $5B constitute? If 5%, then what are you saying, that that is too much?
Every large successful company makes huge piles of money, and many of them pay their CEOs WAY TOO MUCH money. But compared to the numbers on the books, it is negligible. I don't like it either, but I sure won't be asking our government to tell companies what they may or may not pay their CEO.
I think that is a separate issue. It really doesn't impact the cost of health care. $23M divided by 23M customers equates to a dollar per customer. I don't think even at ten times that rate that it is significant in the overall health care cost per person. So lets set that aside and look to other issues.
Where else is money being wasted by insurance companies that causes health care costs to be inflated?
You noted what seems like extravagant expenditure on un-needed facilities. How much $$ would you say that problem amounts to? Why would a business want to waste their revenue? Is the government exempt for the same type of wasteful spending?
When does it become unacceptable to incentivize unproductive members of society? At what point do we say, "no, enough, no work, no food, no health care"?
I'd be all for wrapping health insurance coverage in with the reformed (under Clinton) welfare laws. That would give teh beneficiaries a set time to become productive after which no more free money or free health insurance.
I think we both agree that there needs to be some incentive in society for really lazy folks to earn a living. Making life easy for folks who don't earn a living is the absolute wrong approach I think. No free lunch for the slothful!
I think we actually agree on a lot more than we both realized.
I've always thought of the free market like the law of nature where through hard fought competition, only the fittest survive. I see socialization as akin to domesticated livestock. They can no longer survive on their own, they need constant looking after by their keeper, medicines, special food, veterinary care, and then they are used by their keeper as their keeper sees fit. The animals surely don't like it, but they are dependent upon their keeper.
I don't care how sick or poor I might be, I never ever want to be so beholding to government that I am compelled to vote them power over me and my life.
Why do insurance companies need to make big profits?
Because when things like wild fires, earthquakes, hurricanes and health pandemics occur the people they insure expect big payouts. Unlike the government, insurance companies cannot levy taxes or print more money to make these payouts.
Well stated. Unfortunately, the lobbyists who wrote the health care bill(s) conveniently omitted tort reform as a step in fixing US health care.
Do you think it is any coincidence that 95% of the politicians are lawyers? I like the lawmakers who are Doctors. They are educated on how to fix problems whereas lawyers are educated on how to profit from them.
Perfect... Injured Thug Who Beat Ken Gladney Asks For Workman's Comp From the SEIU For His "Work" Injury He was on the clock.
You may recognize Elston McGowan. He is the Public Service Director of SEIU Local 2000 and a local Baptist minister.
He is also one of the SEIU thugs who beat Kenneth Gladney after the Russ Carnahan town hall meeting in St. Louis last month. McGowan said Gladney, who is half his size, actually attacked him. He claims he was the victim even those he was hauled to jail for the attack.
** 24th State is reporting tonight that Elston McGowan is asking the SEIU for workman's comp for the injury he suffered at the Carnahan rally while beating Ken Gladney's a$$.
Seems like in this debate everybody is on the wrong side.
Us rich, Republican types should be glad to have somebody take over health care. Spent 45 years (+) in manufacturing & we always had to have (1) – (5) people in HR to attend to the paper work associated w/ insurance. – I really would have preferred to hire that many more engineers & put a phone in HR w/ a direct line to our Congressional Rep.
You remember the young woman in HR who spent (2) days on the phone negotiating w/ the hospital & the insurance company to get your wife the best treatment. – She was the one that burned out before she hit 30, put on 40# & ran off w/ the sweeper from the maintenance gang. – I am sure your Congressional Rep. will do just as good a job.
Those of us to the Liberal side (“Liberal” is used here in the classical sense) should be appalled at the possibility of making our lives everybody’s business. Some of us enjoy the pleasures of tobacco, alcohol, sugar, trans-fats & other substances we know to be harmful. – We ride motorcycles, boat so late in the season the water turns hard, ski into the boonies way out of cell range & do other things we know are not compatible w/ longevity.
If you are paying for my lifestyle choices you have every right in the world to tell me how to live my life. – Knock off the tobacco, alcohol, . . . , scrap that motorcycle, boat only in season & always tell the ranger where you will be in the woods.
We have already seen the beginning of this nannyism – Tobacco was de-facto banned by appealing to the associated healthcare costs. – Canada has a de-facto ban on firearms right down to B-B guns because of the associated healthcare costs. – “You could put your eye out w/ one of those!”
