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Evilphoton
Posted on Friday, June 26, 2020 - 01:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm at wits end with my Uly and I just want it fixed. Ideally I'd like get in touch with a factory mechanic. I'll pay for their time and if in SoCal I'll transport it. I've tested and replaced most everything and it just surges and dies. Nothing tests bad either in total or in isolation.

bike is bone stock. everything looks good in ECMSpy... but i don't know some of the really in depth stuff, that's why i want to find someone.

I've:
- replaced ECU (the original one can't connect to ecmspy, so i bought a NOS one)
- tried several maps, but have done most testing with a stock '06 map. i thought maybe a richer map (like '07) would help but it still dies.
- many tps resets per all documentation that I've found, usually using the instructions in ECMSpy.
- replaced: TPS, O2 sensor, injectors, fuel pump (needed a rebuild anyway), a couple sets of plugs.
- checked fuel pressure. i have a test kit. the gauge goes to 50 psi and sits there like a rock regardless of running behavior.
- replaced, checked and re-checked the intake seals. tested with carb cleaner, no leaks
- breather was re-routed. nothing is clogged.
- checked harness for voltage drops and grounds - all tests ok.
- read the internet about these things. i'm pretty sure every thread, and tried what was done in the threads. nada.

Symptoms:
- after tps reset, idle surges between idle-ish and 2k. just surges back and forth. after a few times of this the RPMs drop and it dies. surging continues riding so it's almost impossible to ride in 1st or 2nd gears. not noticeable under WOT and decel.. otherwise you can always feel the surge. there are no trouble codes.

the most frustrating part is at one point, it ran great for several days. I have no idea why. i had done a tps reset a day prior with a cold engine.. did a zip through some twisties, some 2up riding, it was perfect ... I thought I won ... then it was back to running like crap. i've re-created what i did before it ran great to no avail.

there is some more history. when i got the bike, the original engine had bad rod bearings, so i replaced it with a low mileage '06 engine. the symptoms in running are the same before and after the engine swap, and it also ran bad before all the testing and replacing noted above. i did the whole rebuild with the assumption that the running problem is engine management specific (i.e. not mechanical) and would likely be a simple fix... it's been neither lol

so ... this is why i'm looking for someone high dollar.

thank you. please PM or post here. If PM, please post here how i check private messages here, i can't figure out how to.
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Shoggin
Posted on Friday, June 26, 2020 - 03:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I had a bike that acted the same. Turns out the throttle blades were too closed prior to TPS re-set. Also worth a check to see what your actual idle TPS voltage is.

Other than that, whats your AFV? Near 100?
Part of diagnosis would be to put your AFV at 100 and change the minimum to 95 and the max to 105. If it runs better, you have narrowed down what to look for, like a lazy O2 sensor.
Stick with it! Theres lots of smart and helpful peeps on here that will chime in.
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Evilphoton
Posted on Friday, June 26, 2020 - 03:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Shoggin - the blades being too far closed - how did you figure that out? this throttle body has 65k miles on it, + however many snaps closed to do tps resets...which wears the brass and aluminum faster. i can see this now since you mention. what voltage did you end up setting your '0' at?

i'll post back the tps voltage at base and idle, i don't recall off hand.

afv is 100 ... I found the location for setting high and low and have set them to 105/95. i can burn this later and try it. for all of my changes, i start with the stock eprom and go from there. the only other change for this one will be turning off the exhaust valve so the light doesn't come on.

thank you

(Message edited by evilphoton on June 26, 2020)
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Court
Posted on Friday, June 26, 2020 - 04:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

FMJH
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Evilphoton
Posted on Friday, June 26, 2020 - 06:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

what does that mean?
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Bobbuell1961
Posted on Friday, June 26, 2020 - 08:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

65k? I think I had two throttle shafts fail by then, both times left me on the side of the road but yours could be holding on by a thread.
Worst issue I've had in the 77K I have on the bike.
I PM you my PayPal when you find out I'm right,LOL
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Evilphoton
Posted on Friday, June 26, 2020 - 09:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

bobbuell1961 - i like to pay by check, so itíll be in the mail ; )

ok, iíll take the TB completely apart and see what it looks like. i should have before. all the used carbs for old bugs need throttle shaft bushings so i know my way around there a little. that one new one on ebay is a little pricey /:

(Message edited by evilphoton on June 26, 2020)
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Bobbuell1961
Posted on Friday, June 26, 2020 - 10:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Not a bushing issue, the shaft broke.
Got a short ride on the lightning with low miles and I don't think I lost much power in comparison the Uly in comparison.
Love these bikes!
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Firemanjim
Posted on Friday, June 26, 2020 - 10:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

And what has your AFV been? And tell us your TPS setting method. And can you send me your current map--- and Court posted FMJH--- that would be me--- Firemanjim----Higgins. Resident Norcal Buell tuning nut!
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Cupcake_mike
Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2020 - 03:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm thinking it might be your butterfly shaft too, you should be able to see just by pulling the air box cover. I replaced mine with a more robust version made by tootal. If that does turn out to be the problem reach out to him or I can sell you a used TB I picked up with good injectors and all,along with another upgraded shaft already installed
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Evilphoton
Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2020 - 05:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

AFV was 99.9 when I looked yesterday.
I took the airbox top and bottom off and the stack. there is a little motion in the shaft bushing at the cable end, but i think it's a trivial amount - it would be nice to replace the plastic split bushing though - do those exist? The shaft looks good. no sign of cracking, weakness or flex between both ends. there isnít wear in the throttle body bore where the plate contacts it. this bike was fairly well taken care of, so it's quite possible that it already has an upgraded shaft. I'll post pics though.

I do the TPS resets using the exact steps that are in ECMSpy 2.0, I follow those steps each time, 1-7. I generally set it when the engine is cold, but occasionally hot. the direction basically say to do it cold so I usually do.

The map i'm using is from here: https://buellmods.com/eeproms.html -> XB12 Series -> 2006 XB12 Stock -> the .epr version with 2 changes: exhaust valve turned off and min and max afv limites set to 95/105.

Since I have the top of the intake, how, if any way, should i align the TPS sensor? when the bolts are loose, it can move but not very much. I replaced it, but didn't pay attention to the orientation of the original. If it's just as well to set it in the middle, that's fine, but if there is a detail here I'd like to catch it.

I'm grateful for the help.
application/octet-stream2006_xb12_stock_NoExh_afv_set
2006_xb12_stock_NoExh_afv_set.epr (1.2 k)


(Message edited by evilphoton on June 27, 2020)
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Bobbuell1961
Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2020 - 08:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If the TPS is loose that very well could be your issue, these bikes are very sensitive to the TPS setting and timing and I mean very, you want to be spot on!
I've never used ECMspy but I'm sure someone will chime in.
Total's upgraded shaft will have a slot cut in it and the stock will have a notch cut in it.
I never got my bike running again with the upgrade and it sat for over a year before buying another TB, I don't know it it was mismachined but it did not work, my luck, runs great now till it snaps again.
Had a 1125 and the dresser at the time so it wasn't like I couldn't ride but I love the Uly.

(Message edited by bobbuell1961 on June 27, 2020)
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Evilphoton
Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2020 - 10:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

bobbuell1961 - I wasnít clear. the sensor attached tightly, but if it is loosened, it can be twisted slightly and it changes the voltage a little. Iíll try to get a picture tomorrow and post
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Evilphoton
Posted on Monday, June 29, 2020 - 04:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

reporting back...
TPS voltage with the butterfly plate closed in the bore: .72 - .74 (it bounces between these 2 values)
TPS voltage range with the TPS loosened such that it can wiggle: .65 - .82
Max voltage with butterfly fully open (85*): 4.71

I'll post a couple pics of the TB.

FMJH - did you see anything notable in that map?
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Evilphoton
Posted on Monday, June 29, 2020 - 04:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)








bore is smooth. there is a line from the plate having been against it but there isnít a groove that i can feel with fingertip or fingernail.
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Evilphoton
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2020 - 10:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

https://youtu.be/M065r1obXzE

hereís what itís doing. help appreciated.
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Cycleaddict
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2020 - 10:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

rear cylinder is running lean . check for air leaks . if none found then its fuel .
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Bullettooth023
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 09:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Have you tried having the injectors cleaned?
If you have come this far it would be my next step in trying to trace a problem.
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Evilphoton
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 09:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

itís running on the stock map. is the easiest way to richen the rear to, say richen the entire rear map 1%?

injectors are new within about 130 miles. behavior is the same before and with them.

no air leaks, i went around the intake with carb cleaner yesterday (probably the 5th time) and no change. fuel is fresh premium. iíve run 3 or 4 tanks through it.

thank you
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Skipbarberman
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 09:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I personally feel, based on the video, that this is ignition related. Check base timing, and then advance numbers. It's sneezing through the throttle body, and then smoothing out. Not fuel delivery, ignition in my opinion. - Sean
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Tpehak
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 10:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

TPS is bad or not calibrated. TPS should indicate 3.7 to 4.2 degrees when closed, yours shows more than 7 deg, so ECM adds more fuel, floods spark plugs and stalls the engine.

I'm also not quite sure you can trust the fuel pressure gauge. It shows 50 psi but fuel pressure should be more than 50 psi. So fuel pressure regulator is bad, or fuel pump is bad or the gauge is not accurate. I installed digital fuel pressure gauge and it is very accurate

https://www.customfighters.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3142282&postcount=13

(Message edited by TPEHAK on July 01, 2020)
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Cycleaddict
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 10:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

spark plug can do weirdness
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Tpehak
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 10:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Also make sure you use correct heat range spark plugs (NGK DCPR8EIX), not colder. If you use colder spark plugs they can be flooded easily and will behave like on you video or even worst.
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34nineteen
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 11:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Why is it backfiring through the TB?

If everything mechanical is OK, I'd be looking at why the coil is firing before the intake valve is closed.
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Evilphoton
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 12:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The plugs are correct, I set static timing a while back and have re-checked it since.

Second mention of TPS from Shoggin and Tpehak.... I had some weird dream last night about a semi, anyway when I woke up brain had put a couple things together. Shoggin said "Turns out the throttle blades were too closed prior to TPS re-set." Managed to put this together with what I had posted above about the change in voltage that I can get by loosening and turning the TPS on the throttle body. My thought was to loosen TPS a little while it's running and turn it and see if anything happens ... and it did. I fired it up first and it started coughing and spitting like usual. Then I turned the TPS a little and it SMOOTHED OUT AND STARTED RUNNING RIGHT.

So, doing the TPS resets were effectively resulting in the throttle plate being closed too far, reducing the voltage too much in relation to throttle plate position/degrees - correct me where I'm wrong in my theory, but I believe it holds water. Shoggin what did you do after you determined your plate was closed too far?

Being able to rotate the TPS to change the voltage in very small increments gave enough control to richen it more accurately. I had sort of tried this before based on Tpehak's comment. What I did then was set the idle screw to just lean on the throttle shaft cam so that the throttle plate was slightly more 'open', then did the TPS reset. However, the adjustment using this process was way too course, there wasn't a way to get the feel for anything. By being able to slightly turn the TPS, the fine adjustment gives the feel needed.

I really hope this helps someone else with a high mileage bike who is chasing a problem like this.

I think this method is a valid work-around. This isn't fully baked yet. The TPS is turned against the little bolts. Next I'm going to hook up ECMSpy again and turn the TPS such that it shows the low end of the voltage, then do a TPS reset ... then do the manual TPS adjustment again. I think this will put the TPS about in the middle of the 'adjustment' range. I realize I this won't be exact and will throw off the mixture across the board, but with some patience maybe I can get it just a wee bit on the rich side.
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Evilphoton
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2020 - 11:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

well, nevermind all that.

the fix/hack in my case was to increase warm-up enrichment (Corrections -> Warmup Corr) and turn off idle O2.
this is what i ended up with:
22 - 135
65 - 127
130 - 110

fattening up the warm-up helped to a point for about 15 seconds, but then it would die anyway. i realized last weekend that it could have been the o2 sensor kicking in after maybe 10 or 15 seconds, and sure enough when i turned off idle O2, it kept running right at 1050 rpm. this also smoothed out the running between idle and 2k both during warm-up as well as full operating temp. bike is a stock 2006 with 2007 maps (slightly richer, runs quite a bit cooler per how often the fan comes on)

i don't completely understand why this has worked, other than it seems the o2 sensor was leaning out the mixture as soon as it heated up and the ecu started paying attention to it. all i've read is that there should be no reason to mess with warm-up enrichment, or any of the "corrections" for that matter but that did Not work. One of my other tries was the stock map/corrections with idle o2 off, it still popped/spit and died. so turning off idle o2 alone didn't fix the problem

i realize it's not the same (but it is air cooled) but i have to run my '71 super beetle several steps richer in order for it to run right, and it still gets 27mpg with dual carbs.

i read tons of other threads with very similar symptoms to mine, but i have not seen reference to enriching the warm-up. occasionally turning off idle o2 will help. i'm thinking now that in those cases it's probable that it's just running too lean.
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