| Author | Message | ||
     Darthane |
...you're kidding yourself if you think the government does not already have the ability to track you down... -=goes back to his coffee=- I had a lot of fun explaining what a 'conspiracy theorist' was to my Japanese sensei last Friday. She thought it was funny as hell... | ||
| Dyna |
Now come one & add the last part of that or are moving in that direction anyways. It sure as hell appears our government is headed in that direction. They want to monitor email & already have black boxes in many cars...which the owners didnt know about. Cameras are popping up more & more to supposedly "watch traffic" or "used for weather studies". | ||
| Andys |
From Motorcycle Consumer News a couple of months ago. It scared the hell out of me. Big Brother is Watching RECENTLY, A PANEL of experts convened in Michigan to discuss the emerging controversy involving vehicle data recorders (VDRs). Chaired by Car and Driver editor Csaba Csere, the panel's focus was on yet another "little black box" being installed on most new vehicles made by Ford and General Motors. It's a fairly innocuous thing, about the size of a cigarette pack, that only records about five seconds of data when the vehicle's air bag is activated. Information recorded involves speed changes, throttle position, braking application and seat belt use. Sounds fairly sensible, and quite probably it's even a very useful device for determining the cause of an accident. But stop and think for a moment. Who owns that information? And what about our constitutional protection against self-incrimination? Does the state, or your insurance company, have the right to use that information against you to raise your insurance rates, or to prosecute you and perhaps send you to jail? The consensus among the panel was that legally, the information belongs to the owner of the vehicle and can't be used without his permission, but.. .read on. First of all, if you're wondering what this has to do with motorcycling, I couldn't find a single expert in the industry who doesn't believe that VDRs will soon be mandatory on every motor vehicle sold in the US, which of course, will include our motorcycles. Secondly, it is also worth noting that these devices are capable of recording tons more information than what they currently capture. And, I am told that it would be a simple matter for the NHTSA to require the collection of any data from these devices that they might deem useful to them. The Michigan panel also noted that under some new laws passed recently, the Department of Homeland Security and the Attorney General's office can also access that data. So, what about your right to privacy or freedom from self-incrimination? According to the National Motorists Association, even if Homeland Security or the AG isn't interested in your "private" information, you have probably already waived your right to privacy' by way'bf a clause in your insurance policy, promising that you wm "cooperate" with your insurance company by granting access to any information that could conceivably help settle a claim. You might be able to secure a court order to stop them, but don't bother, because we're alsq told that virtually any state agency could still access your data, under the "implied consent" clause that is standard in most states for being issued a driver's license. You might be thinking at this point that at least you're safe from this invasion unless and until you break the law, or get involved in an accident. Wrong again. Already, certain models of cars with onboard GPS systems can transmit your data to anyone with a receiver and an access code-hopefully, a representative of a law enforcement agency. But who knows? You won't even know when it's being done. And even if your vehicle isn't equipped with GPS, don't worry, they've got that covered, too. Soon, all the VDRs will be equipped with wireless internet capability, so that State Trooper following you can simply tap your license plate number into his keyboard, and download your every move for the past several weeks. Not to mention he won't need radar anymore to clock your speed-your car or bike will do it for him, and even tell him if you were speeding last Tuesday. If all this sounds futuristic to you-hang onto your helmets. In Europe, they're working on a similar system, with GPS, to be used for charging road tolls. The tolls vary by the road used and the time of day, and are calculated by a computer that attaches a permile fee. Toll meters at gas stops then automatically charge your credit card or bank account for your road-use tolls when you stop for gas. The computer also knows the speed limit on each road you took, and whether or rlot'"ydh ex1:eeded it, and will automatically'add your 'speeding fines onto your tolls. Isn'ttechnology wonderful? "It'll never happen!" you say? The tollmeter boxes are already a reality in Swiss and German. cqmro,ercial trucks, and Deutsche-Telekpl1l and Daimler-Chrysler have a government contract in hand to install them in all trucks in Germany very soon. How much longer before they make their way into private vehicles? In answer to my own question, Australia seems to think it can't come soon enough. In New South Wales, the Road and Traffic Authority has looked at our VDRs, and Germany's GPS-enabled toll meters, and decided that not only are they a good idea, they should be taken one step further. The plan being considered there would include another wrinkle-mandatory engine governors that would make sure that your vehicle could never exceed the posted speed limit of wherever you're driving at the time. The RT A General Manager is promoting this plan, and has the backing of a powerful organization called "Stay safe," which claims the system could reduce traffic accidents by as much as 50%. Now, I don't believe that Americans will ever stand still for the speed governors, but then again, I don't believe anyone in the US is even considering that option. What they're pushing for here, instead, is the automated fine system, so you can basically speed all you want, so long as you're prepared to pay for it. After all, that is the American Way, isn't it? But don't think you might get away without paying, because our governments, though not interested in making the system capable of physically slowing us down, are in favor of adding a "start inhibitor," that would simply immobilize your vehicle if you have unpaid traffic fines. A neat solution that clearly points out that though the proponents of these systems will beat their collective breasts and cry "safety" when extolling the plan, they are not quite so interested in public safety as they are in revenue generation. The Federal, State and local governments, and especially the insurance companies, will win big. And we, the motoring public, will lose. They will console us with their mantra that it makes the world a safer place. Maybe I sound like a wild-eyed conspiracy theorist, but when in our history has our government ever opted for less regulation on our motoring? And the systems I describe aren't science-fiction, they're already here, and in use in several places. And quite frankly, I doubt that there is a damn thing we can do about it. I leave you with a quote from Benjamin Franklin: "They who willingly give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary security, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Fred Rau Senior Editor | ||
| Richieg150 |
Heres my 2 cents---The guy ran from the cops--period.If he hadnt,three innocent people would still be alive.It doesnt matter why he ran,the result is still the same.Its nobody elses fault he ran,its his fault,not the cops,not his parents,not his school teachers,not his dogs..but HIS ALONE.To bad we live in a society where we have NO accountability for what we do,and its always someone elses fault!I dont care what the allegations were,he sholdnt have ran,yes when you run from the police you need to be chased and caught.You can always come up with hypothetical senario to try and justify not chasing a suspect.Heres one,you pull up at your house,the police are there,your wife is there,your young child has just been sexually assaulted and is unconscious.The neighbor across the street,remembers a red car parked by your house earlier and a stranger,she didnt recognize walking by your house getting in the car and driving off.As shes telling the police this, she shouts,theres the car I saw at that corner,the police wave at the driver telling them to stop and the car speeds off!Should this car be chased?Your damed right it should!We need to put the blame exactly where it is,ON THOSE WHO CHOSE TO RUN FROM THE POLICE! | ||
| Johncr250 |
The Ezpass toll system that used in NY and NJ also monitors the time it takes for you to get from point A to Point B. If you get there under a certain time, then you must have been speeding. Last year the NYS Troopers were checking cars on the NYS Thuway with a laptop when they going to toll booths and giving out summons. They eventually had to stop this practice because most of the tickets were getting dismissed in court because unless there is only one person in the car, you really can`t prove who was driving. Scary stuff! The government monitors alot more than you think. | ||
| Johncr250 |
I drink way too much coffee myself. | ||
| Darthane |
LOL...good. I can't trust a man that won't drink coffee. Sorry, Dyna.  | ||
| Seanp |
Dyna, I brought up the motorcyclists BAC to show that everyone has some level of blame in this thing. You want to place more blame on the cops, I want to place more blame on the kid running from them. However, if we're going to place blame on different people, let's place blame all around. The motorcyclists, if they had been drinking, were not at 100% capability. Their reactions were slowed, their judgment affected. So they may have seen the car coming and thought that he would stop, not realizing that he was going 80 mph and there's no way he could have stopped by that stop sign. So that's where the varying levels of blame come into this. This is why I am inclined to look at where the majority of the blame needs to be placed, and that is with the kid who was running from the law. So if you want to place blame on the cops, (who were less to blame than the kid) then you'd better start looking closely at the whole situation and decide where you want to stop placing blame. Is it the cops? Is it the motorcyclists? Is it the parents of the kid? Is it the owner of the blazer? Maybe he should have bought OnStar so that the cops could track his car down if it was stolen. Or disable it. Maybe it's the Omaha taxpayers. If they'd paid more in taxes, the cops could have disabled the car with one of those machines that they slide underneath it which destroys the electronics. Maybe it's the television producers, by making all those high-speed car chases seem so glorious. Or maybe it's the Coca-Cola company or Sony, or Monster.com, or whoever the advertisers are for "World's Wildest Police Videos" for funding such wonderful shows that glorify running from the police... So there are many levels of blame here. This could have been stopped at so many places. But the number one person who could have stopped this was the kid himself. Of all the "What if" questions, the most easily answered is "What if the kid hadn't run?" Well, my friend, if he hadn't run, there'd be three motorcyclists alive right now. And there's no denying that. | ||
| Johncr250 |
Just image your OnStar system or your cars computer sending an electronic message to the police, DMV, and your insurance company every time you drove over 75mph. The government already has this technology. How much would that suck? Most big cities have cameras monitoring intersections that mail you tickets if you go through a red light or block the crosswalk. Along with pictures of your car. NYC has over 400 in place already. The government monitors alot more than we all think! | ||
| Dyna |
Just image your OnStar system or your cars computer sending an electronic message to the police, DMV, and your insurance company every time you drove over 75mph. The government already has this technology. How much would that suck? Most big cities have cameras monitoring intersections that mail you tickets if you go through a red light or block the crosswalk. Along with pictures of your car. NYC has over 400 in place already. The government monitors alot more than we all think! Exactly, but if we bring it up then we are labeled as conspiracy kooks. Our actual level of freedom has dropped dramatically & we are slowly catching up to the Europeans and the amount of freedom they have lost. | ||
| Gonen60 |
just a thought, and it's crazy, But how many lives would be saved, and problems solved, if cars couldn't drive faster than the posted speed limit. Some kind of computer controlled gizmo, that could read the speed limit, for the particular piece of road you were on, and govern the cars power, so it could not go beyond the speed limit. or easier yet, just build cars so they can't be driven over 60 mph. as much as I love cars and bikes, it amazes me you can buy a street bike that will go 180 mph or a 500 HP street truck (new dodge truck) | ||
| Davefl |
Wow, some of you guys really go to extremes. I do not believe that the police should never pursue people, but the way that they do it most of the time is just plan dangerous. Most of the time they are just waiting for the other person to crash so the chase will be over. They do have radios in their cars. It would be much better to bring in help to stop the runner in a SAFE place. If that cannot happen then they need to find another way to catch them other than chasing them into innocent people. | ||
| Hootowl |
Wow. That was a lot to wade through. No easy answer is there? I'd have to say it was the kid's fault. Was it worth three lives to catch him? In retrospect, no. However, I do NOT believe the answer is to NOT chase people who run from the police. That would invite lawlessness. In Houston, the police do not chase motorcyclists who run from them. (not sure what the official policy is) The squids know this and routinely do 130+ at night around the 610 loop. I was pulled over on my motorcycle a few months ago for going through an automated tollbooth without the proper tag. I did have one, but the system didn't read it for some reason. The officer, upon finding the appropriate equipment in place on my bike, THANKED ME FOR STOPPING and went about his business. Pretty sad. They still chase cars though. | ||
| Seanp |
Hootowl - I'll have to remember that when I get my XB9R when I get home. Now I know where to practice my high-speed riding...  | ||
| Bomber |
Dyna -- just because your a conspiricy kook doesn't mean you wrong! ;-} | ||
| Darthane |
Dodge Ram SRT/10...-=drools=- I may just have to violate my 'no 4-wheeled toys' rule for that thing. | ||
| Msetta |
I agree with Rich150 - the majority of the blame has to go to the kid who decided to break the law. When you choose to disobey the law there is no excuse afterwards absolving you of fault. My heart goes out to the people that died, but if someone is going to get charged with killing them, it's not going to be the police and I have no problem with that. Take responsibility for your actions. The police have a tough job and there is some merrit in reviewing their actions, but don't place the blame on them. Place the blame on the person that started the situation - the person that broke the law by running from the cops. setta | ||
| Darthane |
Heh...is it because they know they can't catch them or they're afraid the punks will kill themselves? ...at least if they wipe out on a 'cycle they're less likely to take someone else with them than if they did it with 2 tons of steel... | ||
| Dyna |
I do not believe that the police should never pursue people, but the way that they do it most of the time is just plan dangerous. Most of the time they are just waiting for the other person to crash so the chase will be over. They do have radios in their cars. It would be much better to bring in help to stop the runner in a SAFE place. If that cannot happen then they need to find another way to catch them other than chasing them into innocent people. Exactly!! In Houston, the police do not chase motorcyclists who run from them. (not sure what the official policy is) Around here its pretty much the same deal. The figure sooner or later they will be scraping your body up off the pavement. A few years back I was riding with 3 buddies, I was on my CBR & they were on similar bikes. Anyways we were riding in Lake Forest Il & the speed limit was 45. Well we passed a cop taking radar on a nice sweeper & we were doing just under a 100mph on it. By the time we saw the cop it was too late to even begin to slow down. Thought for sure he was coming after us. But he didnt even flinch. Hell if we wanted to, by the time he had put the car in gear we would have been long gone anyways. Very rarely do I ever see a bike pulled over around here. Well unless you are Bomber & Roger up here for a little cruise  Psst John, watch out for those Racine sheriffs. | ||
| Xb9er |
This reminds me of a friend of mine years ago. When he spotted a police car he would wait until they got close to him and made eye contact. Then he would make a mad dash down some alley or through back yards seeing if they would chase after him. A few times they did. He would let them catch up to him after a while. When they asked him why he was running, his reply was "Why were you chasing me?" This guy was actually a very bright person, he was just a bored teenager. I don't think it's about who is to blame for the deaths of motorcyclists in this case. The point of contention is, should the cops have let the kid go when he took off in the SUV? I happen to believe the cops made the wrong decision by giving chase. They apparently did not confirm the identity of the suspect so they weren't even chasing the right guy. I think it boils down to the podunk cops wanting to be big heroes. Being a law officer is a damn boring job. A high speed chase may be a once in a lifetime thrill and you're wrong if you think that cops involved in a chase are looking out for you and me. In the heat of a chase, they care about public safety almost as little as the guy they are chasing because that's human nature and it's basically the way they have trained. Mike. | ||
| Dyna |
I think it boils down to the podunk cops wanting to be big heroes. Being a law officer is a damn boring job. A high speed chase may be a once in a lifetime thrill and you're wrong if you think that cops involved in a chase are looking out for you and me. In the heat of a chase, they care about public safety almost as little as the guy they are chasing because that's human nature Most excellent post. | ||
| Seanp |
And if the cops stop chasing the criminals, then the criminals will stop running. I'm sure. Police chases are a necessary part of life, until there is a better way to bring people to justice. Talk about radios all you want - if the cruiser sees the bad guy pull away down the road, in many areas, there are a dozen different directions the bad guy could go once he's out of sight. And how many of you live in places where the people complain because there aren't enough police? Well, they don't have dozens of cops to go sit at each intersection and wait for the bad guy to come along. So the only way to get them is to chase them. And some chases are going to invariably end up like this one, with innocents dead. But the alternative is to let the bad guys have free reign. And that is not a viable alternative. So unless you have something that works better than chasing after the bad guys, you don't have much of a valid complaint against the current system. So what works better, right now, that all the police in the country have? | ||
| Dyna |
There is no reason to pursue a person if you already know who they are & where they live. Why chase them?????? Eventually they have to go home. No obviously there will always be exceptions such as a bank robber who is shooting people & takes off. Well then yes a chase is warranted because you dont know who it is. But a high speed chase because some kid didnt show up for sentencing on a minor drug charge??? Here's a true story for you that happened in my town a number of years back. We had an outdoor mall & bicycles were prohibited from riding thru it...why I dont know. Anyways the cops would drive their squad cars thru it late at night checking store fronts. 1 night a cop saw a kid on a bike riding thru it. The kid on the bike took off & the cop went after him. 2 blocks later they hit an area called library park. The kid jumps the curb & speeds off on his bike across the grass. The cop jumps the curb, hits the grass which was wet with dew & promptly wraps his squad around a tree. Totaled the car out & put himself in the hospital. All because a kid was riding his bike. Comes down to what XB9er wrote In the heat of a chase, they care about public safety almost as little as the guy they are chasing because that's human nature and it's basically the way they have trained. | ||
| Gonen60 |
We had an outdoor mall & bicycles were prohibited from riding thru it.. you answered your own question, the bike rider broke the law. you start letting people get away with doing this, even at the smallest level, and anarchy will show it's ugly head. Maybe the above mentioned bike rider, did this all the time, even after warnings from the local police. What ever the case, the bike rider broke the law, and then tried to evade the law. That warrants a chase in my book. one other thing...what do you consider a minor degree drug charge? buying or selling pot? will it still be minor when the same asshole is selling or giving it to your 12 year old little girl? There is nothing minor about breaking the law, get a grip...with out laws, even the laws that may seem trivial, you would not be able to draw a line. | ||
| S320002 |
In Dyna's World, Cops are not issued a gun and a badge after graduating with a degree in law enforcement, they are issued kid gloves and a happy face button after graduating with a degree in child psychology. Hot pursuit does not mean high speeds and wailing sirens. Instead law officers are seen following the criminals at no more than a brisk walk pleading "Please stop and tell me if you really meant to rape that little girl back there." Even when caught in the act, criminals are never taken into custody because they might really be innocent by way of the Twinkie Defense. Court summonses read like party invitations to which the accused are asked to RSVP. The court then waits anxiously to see if enough invitees will show up to allow the justice process to continue. If the guy behind you in the ATM line tells you to give him your money you do it. If you don't he might pull a gun, shoot at you, miss, hit the innocent drug dealer down the street and it would be your fault because you resisted being a victim. Because you have a home, unlike the guy behind you in line who is on the run for murder, the police can come and arrest you. "What's the charge?" you ask. "Resistance to becoming a victim." says the cop with the happy face badge, kid gloves and Child Psych degree. ...true story... Cop traveling at bicycle speed totals his car and ends up in the hospital? Is it the truth or is it a story or was it a script reject from "Police Academy .357.". Wow! I better get back to the real world, things are way too strange for me in Dyna's world. Greg in the real world. | ||
| Gonen60 |
+1 Greg | ||
| Seanp |
Dyna - The guy doesn't have to go back to his house. It's not like he can't steal whatever he needs in life, clothes, a car, food. He's already proven that he's willing to take other people's property in lieu of having his own. So what the hell does he need to go back to his house for? Maybe the drugs he left back there... And even if he does have to go back to his house eventually, how long do the cops wait? Ok, let's figure a stakeout on this guy's house. Well, two officers per shift, 8 hour shifts, that's 6 officers a day. Can the Omaha PD afford to lose 6 officers a day until this kid goes back to his house? Which could be never? I bet the cops in the county where he failed to appear for court wished he'd go back to his house there. Then they could just waltz right in and pinch him. Oh, wait, that obviously didn't work... Gonen has a good point - the laws are there for a reason. They are the baseline. If you start stretching the laws, or making them applicable only some of the time, then they are no longer laws - they are simply suggestions. And the more stretching there is, the more lawless the country becomes. I've now seen a lawless country. It's not pretty. The Iraqis shoot at their police, they shoot at each other, they shoot at us. They carry AK's around in their trunks. The guy who brings me computer parts has to walk around with a big dude that carries a pistol, (not on the basecamp, but outside in Baghdad) for protection, because he's a well-to-do Iraqi and has some money. There are bombs in the street, along the highways, and in the markets and mosques. There are car bombs, radio control bombs, rocket attacks, rocket propelled grenade attacks, and mortar attacks. The people here are clamoring for some fair laws, and for someone to enforce these laws. I don't ever want to be in a situation or live in a country like that... Do you? | ||
| Davefl |
I would wager that the tax money collected from the three victims from that day to the time they died of old age would have paid the policemen's wages to spend a little more time apprehending the suspect. | ||
| Davefl |
Another thing. I and I do not believe Dyna has said that the police should never chase criminals, but they do have to pick their battles. You have to balance the need to catch someone against the chance of the loss of life of innocent people. | ||
| Davefl |
Looks like the People of Nebraska agree with me. Nebraska law is very clear -- if innocent bystanders are hurt or killed during a police pursuit, that police department can be held liable, even if the officers are from a different state. The law was updated a few years ago. The changes were initiated by Omaha Sen. Ernie Chambers, who said the law is designed to send a message to officers -- if your pursuit causes injury or death to an innocent bystander, you and your city will be held responsible. taken fromhttp://www.theomahachannel.com/news/2942501/detail.html |
