| Author | Message | ||
     Fcbuell |
Ok, I've read through the KV, bunch of you guys say you get Mobil-1 15w50 at Walmart, its the cheaper way to go over the VTwin 20w50 version (and over redline, amsoil etc.. for the most part) - BUT I've never seen it other than the "extended life" expensive version!? In fact, I can't find regular mobil-1 15w50 hardly anywhere let alone the mobil-1 website: http://www.mobil1.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mo bil_1.aspx What gives? Thanks. | ||
| 1stbuell |
It is the extended life version. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Congratulations on referring to the KV before posting!! I'm not sure if anyone else has tried that before?  Seriously though, I believe that ALL Mobil One 15w50 comes in the extended life version. Nothing the matter with it. Probably more of a change of name than a major chemical change. BTW, as you may have already discovered, there is concern by many board members that Mobil One 75w90 gear oil may cause premature failure of the stator when used in the Buell Primary Chain case. As a result, many of the brothers are switching to Harley Formula +, as recommended by Buell, for this purpose. I did just that, and did not notice any difference in the way the bike shifts. | ||
| Brucelee |
m1 15W-50 only comes in EP formula. Change happened about a year ago or so. This is NOT the same oil as the Mtwin oil but it is pretty good stuff. For hotter climes, I would def. go the Mtwin stuff, or Red Line 20W-50. Good luck. | ||
| Blake |
Why? | ||
| Brucelee |
Both oils I mention have higher shear strength capabilities than the 15W-50. | ||
| Pwnzor |
I had been running Syn-3 in the primary all this time, but just before the American Sport Bike barbeque I changed to the Formula + at Al's suggestion. It does shift a little smoother. As for Mobil 1 in the primary, I believe the evidence is overwhelming. It does cause premature failure of the stator. Mike ('03 XB9R) in Santa Barbara had his stator go out on the way back to Buellton 2 weeks ago. When I asked what he had in his primary, you guessed it, Mobil 1. The story is all too common to be coincidence. I'm not advocating any particular brand to replace Mobil 1 for use in the primary, but I am asserting that it would be wise to use anything BUT Mobil 1. HD Syn-3 and more recently the Formula + have/are worked/working well for me, and my clutch is in pristine condition. Stator puts out a strong charge. I anticipate 50,000 mile life on my clutch and even longer for the stator. I'll keep you posted. ps: I've noticed a lot of people buy certain oils because they are less expensive. My question for them is, how much does a new transmission cost? Pistons and rings? I go by the book, call me a mouthpiece or cheerleader for HD products if you like but we'll see how long my equipment lasts. I submit myself for public scrutiny. (Message edited by pwnzor on October 27, 2006) | ||
| Brucelee |
At Al's (American Sport Bike) suggestion, I am running Red Line Lightweight Shock Proof lube in the primary. For me, the shifting is the best I have experienced with any oil I have used in the primary. Great great stuff. | ||
| Blake |
Richard, Why is it okay to run an oil with lesser shear strength in cooler climes but not in warmer ones? Al recommended using Redline Shock Proof in your Buell transmission/primary? Are you sure? Redline Shock Proof lubricants contain suspended solids that can accumulate on/around the stator and clutch. For this reason, Redline recommends against using their Shock Proof lubricants in Sportster and Buell transmissions/primaries. Or, I could be mistaken. If Al recommends it, then I'm sure it is okay. | ||
| Old_man |
It is my understanding that the problem was with Mobil 1 gear lube not the oil. The gear lube containing sulphur, creating acid in the gear box. The oil OK in the gearbox? | ||
| Brucelee |
Richard, Why is it okay to run an oil with lesser shear strength in cooler climes but not in warmer ones? I did not say that it was "OK" or not. I prefer to run an oil with a higher HTST rating in warmer climes as heat is ONE of the elements that contributes to an oil shearing down in viscosity ratings. Based on used oil analysis, M1 15W-50 does shear down to a greater degree than MTWIN or RLine. Still it is as fine oil and easier to buy than the Mtwin or Red Line. Al recommended using Redline Shock Proof in your Buell transmission/primary? Are you sure? Yes, actually Al's shop is 3 miles from my home and I chat with him on a regular basis. He sold me the Red Line. Redline Shock Proof lubricants contain suspended solids that can accumulate on/around the stator and clutch. For this reason, Redline recommends against using their Shock Proof lubricants in Sportster and Buell transmissions/primaries. Or, I could be mistaken. If Al recommends it, then I'm sure it is okay. Suggest you chat with Al on this. He DID have that concern with the Heavyweight SPO but not with the lighter version. | ||
| Blake |
Consider that with all else being equal, the shearing stresses in an oil at a cooler temperature are greater than the shearing stresses in the oil at a hotter temperature. | ||
| Brucelee |
Consider that with all else being equal, the shearing stresses in an oil at a cooler temperature are greater than the shearing stresses in the oil at a hotter temperature I would not agree with that statement. I would agree that the wear on a cold engine at start up is greater than when fully warm. That is not the same thing as the impact of temp on oil shearing, ie loss of viscosity. | ||
| Mainstreamer |
You can find all the Mobile 1 products here, including Vtwin. http://www.autobarn.net/mobil1store.html | ||
| Blake |
I will talk to Al about the Shockproof issue. I'm concerned about that recommendation as I believe that all the Shock Proof products offered by Redline contain the same suspended solids. The base oils are just different viscosity grades. I do not know what you mean by "shearing down." What do you imagine a lubricant's shear strength has to do with it's viscosity? | ||
| Brucelee |
As I understand it, the term "shearing" refers to the oil molecules actually separating from each other when under stress. This stress can be mechanical or heat induced. When these molecules sep. or shear, the oil's viscosity is reduced and hence, its ability to lubricate at high temps. In used oil analysis, one can see that M1 15-50 starts out as a 50 wt oil but over time, it "shears" down to somewhere around 35-40 wt oil. This shearing effect is much less pronounced in MTWIN and Red Line oil. Help? | ||
| Blake |
Where did you find that viscosity retention data? This may help explain what shearing and shear strength in a lubricant mean... http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm | ||
| Blake |
Basically, the viscosity of an engine oil with inadequate/low shear strength will degrade in operation significantly over time. If the shear strength of a lubricant is adequate, it's viscosity will be little degraded in operation over time by shear stresses. There are however other factors that can degrade an oil's viscosity. | ||
| Brucelee |
I am familiar with Bob's piece on shearing and oil. Bob does not mention specifically the impact of heat on shearing. However, other articles that I have read mention metal to metal action, pressure AND heat as factors that make an oil shear. So, for example, Jet engines typically use an lubricant with a very high HTST to deal with extreme temps in the engine or so I am told. HTST is a test of an oil's ability to resist shearing from all sources. The rating factor for the TWIN and Red Line oils is about 25% higher than for the 15W-50, which BTW is still very good. The used oil analysis that I mentioned were listed on Bob's site. If you do a search, you can find them I think. | ||
| Blake |
I don't know what "HTST" means. Oil experiences shear stress in performance of it's duty, lubricating two surfaces in motion relative to one another. Said shear stresses are inherent as part of the job of a lubricant. If the oil is of adequate shear strength, it will not lose viscosity due to normal operational shearing stresses. Metal to metal contact occurs when the lubricating film has failed. All else being equal, when an oil's temperature increases, the shearing stresses decrease. Where in a Buell engine might high oil shearing stresses exist? | ||
| Pwnzor |
Time: 3 days prior to American Sport Bike BBQ. Place: American Sport Bike Matt: "Al, is there anything better to use in my primary case? I've been running Syn-3 with no problems for 3 years." Al: "Yes, Formula Plus. It's what I use in mine." | ||
| Fcbuell |
Thanks for the comments folks. I didn't realize most were just referring to the extended life product. Makes sense now. But for the record, I'm pretty sure M1 made the 15w-50 in the plain supersyn formula, sounds like they switched it over to EP only at some point. Hmm... I've been using the VTwin 20w50 and have been happy with it, was just looking at 15w50 for the colder weather as this is the first year I'll be commuting year around. I might get some Redline instead, at least I know a guy in town that has it in stock, and its cheaper than M1 EP stuff. Thanks again. | ||
| Fcbuell |
Oh, and thanks for the warning on gear oil Gentleman_jon. Although I had read up on that and have been using Redlin in the tranny. Last time changed it I used MT-90 and the shifting as been butter. Although, not like it was bad before... la la... i'm out of work early today, its too nice outside! I'm going for a ride! | ||
| Brucelee |
All else being equal, when an oil's temperature increases, the shearing stresses decrease You had better tell the guys who develop oil tests. See below: High Temperature/High Shear (ASTM D-4683) The High Temperature/High Shear Test measures a lubricant's viscosity under severe high temperature and shear conditions that resemble highly-loaded journal bearings in fired internal combustion engines. In order to prevent bearing wear, it is important for a lubricant to maintain its protective viscosity under severe operating conditions | ||
| Blake |
No need. They already know it. Don't confuse applied loads with internal stresses. | ||
| Blake |
This is getting interesting. I may have to crack open my advanced fluid mechanics text; on second thought, no need; the undergrad text will suffice for this discussion. Do you know how to calculate shear stress in a lubricating film? (Message edited by Blake on October 27, 2006) | ||
| Brucelee |
Blake, If you want to debate the quality of the test or standard, take it up with ASTM. They created it, they can defend it. You can look this test result up for each of the three oils we have been chatting about. Red Line has the highest rating of the 3, M1 15-50 the lowest, though it is still quite good. You CAN'T look it up for HD Syn3, as they don't publish this number and as near as I can tell, do not submit their oil to these tests. | ||
| Pwnzor |
 | ||
| Blake |
Richard, Look, Matt (Pwnzor) is trying to tell us that beating the oil out of a horse is the way to go.  Seriously though, nothing wrong with the test. My point is that once you exceed the required shear strength to prevent viscosity breakdown in normal operational use in an engine, anything extra is gravy. The shear strength and viscosity retention capabilities of the Mobil-1 15W50 far exceed anything that our Buell engines require, even in hot climates. Can you identify the areas in our Buell engines where lubricant shearing stresses are highest? | ||
| Blake |
You are confusing the applied loading in a test with actual real-world lubricant stresses inside your engine. They are two different things entirely. One is aimed at intentionally testing to failure, the other is aimed at lubricating an engine. An analogy is in order. It is kinda like taking sandpaper to the paint on the hoods of cars and counting how much paint is removed after a period of consistent sanding. The car whose hood retains the most paint would offer the most protection against paint abrasion. But in the real world that may have little relevance, since the paint is unlikely to ever be subject to that kind of punishment. The sanding test is not meant to simulate real world conditions, it is only meant to provide a quick and easy way to compare the relative properties of the various test specimens (painted finishes on hoods of cars). Zat make sense? The lack of inclusion of the H-D products is frustrating. I'm switching to the Syn-III and the Formula+. I do like visiting with my local dealer though. They are nice folks.  | ||
| Blake |
That and Syn3 sponsors the Buell FX racing effort.  | ||
| Pwnzor |
Find me one instance of a critical failure caused by Syn-3 or Formula + and I will eat crow all day long and twice on Sunday. Al gives it the thumbs up, that's good enough for me. | ||
| Brucelee |
"The shear strength and viscosity retention capabilities of the Mobil-1 15W50 far exceed anything that our Buell engines require, even in hot climates." This is an interesting assertion. Is there some way that you know that or is this conjecture? I would love to see the reference. Not trying to pick a fight here but that statement is pretty definitive. As I have consistently said in this thread, M1 15-50 is a fine oil and I have used it in my Buell in the past. I simply prefer to use Red Line as is in my view, it is a superior oil. RL's data is better than the M1 15-50 on all counts that I can see and in my mind (and to my wallet) it is worth it for the "extra protection!" Does it exceed what the XB needs? Who knows, I hope so! I like the idea of an extra margin of safety when it comes to an air cooled engine running in hot climes, where I live. But that is me. I am not trying to convince anyone, I said, "if it were me," I like relying on test spec data and used oil analysis when it comes to discussing oil. In this regard, I have never seen anything that suggests that M1 15-50 is bad, simply that RL and MTwin are better. And that is pretty much what I have to say on the subject. | ||
| Brucelee |
Al gives it the thumbs up, that's good enough for me. Al gave me thumbs up on the RL Shockproof oil. He must have three thumbs! | ||
| Cowboyup |
One question not answered, that I would like to hear some opinions on, is ; what are the pros and cons to using the M1 15w-50 in the primary? | ||
| Pwnzor |
As for Mobil 1 in the primary, I believe the evidence is overwhelming. It does cause premature failure of the stator. Mike ('03 XB9R) in Santa Barbara had his stator go out on the way back to Buellton 2 weeks ago. When I asked what he had in his primary, you guessed it, Mobil 1. The story is all too common to be coincidence. I'm not advocating any particular brand to replace Mobil 1 for use in the primary, but I am asserting that it would be wise to use anything BUT Mobil 1. HD Syn-3 and more recently the Formula + have/are worked/working well for me, and my clutch is in pristine condition. Stator puts out a strong charge. I anticipate 50,000 mile life on my clutch and even longer for the stator. I'll clarify my statement by saying I'm not sure what variety of Mobil 1 people are using in their primary cases. What I know is that everyone I've seen or heard of using something called "Mobil 1" in the primary drive has experienced stator failure within approximately 25,000 miles. I have not heard of anyone experiencing these types of failures when using the following products. If anyone else has, please illuminate me. I'm not saying these are BETTER than other similar products, just trying to point out that Mobil 1 in the primary is most likely a bad idea. The evidence of that seems pretty clear.   | ||
| Perry |
The oil that is suspect is the Mobil-1 GEAR OIL, not the 15w-50 motor oil. The gear oil has significant sulphur compounds (phew, that stinks!) and is a very different product. Some assert the GEAR OIL will cause stator failure through corrosive effects of the compounds in the oil. If you take a wiff of the gear oil, you will instantly know it is a very different kind of stuff. | ||
| Sloppy |
Be very careful about statements about Mobil 1 in the tranny. The problem isn't with Mobil1 -- the problem is that NO GL-5 Gear Oil belong in your transmission, regardless of brand!!! Mobil1 makes EXCELLENT oils. Please refrain from generalizing a brand without a product identification. Please note, that Mobil 1 15-50 engine oil is also classified as a GL-4 gear oil. Mobil 1 15-50 works as a good tranny oil as well. BTW, last I checked with Redline (3 years ago?), they no longer recommend Shockproof in the tranny -- they recommended their engine oil. Shockproof leaves "wax-like" deposits in the transmission. As always, check with the manufacturer of the oil prior to use in your vehicle if you're not sure which hole to put it in. Operators are standing by (bored) to answer your techinical questions... |
