| Author | Message | ||
     Clutchreaper |
This is another try at getting this corrected. EBR ECM matched with Keda RT-3. The bike ran perfect with this setup, then one day it just started running too lean. Backfiring, stalling, etc. Plug inspection confirmed it. Stock ECM runs great. AFRs 116F/122R, which is what I would expect with an RT-3. I thought the EBR ECM went bad by some weird chance. They were nice enough to test it and even reflashed it saying everything was good. I reinstalled it and it still ran way too lean. New battery installed, still same results. Stock ECM runs fantastic. What could be the differences between the two causing the issues with the EBR? I don't think the IAC setting was lost since it was inspected and even reflashed. I don't have an ECM spy to dig further, eventhough it would definitely help. I'm really frustrated that I haven't figured it out yet and I can't use the EBR ECM. Really looking for some insight here. | ||
| Nuts4mc |
SWAG- the injectors are controlled by the ECM - not only to "open"(timing in relation to crank) but the "duration" ( or number of pulses)that they remain open.... 1) in some bikes it has been reported that the trigger wheel was faulty.(scroll down) http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/658386.html 2) fuel pump pressure is too low to handle the program in the EBR/ECM/RT-3 unit. 3) send a PM to Dean - he knows his pipe(s) and these bikes Hope this helped | ||
| D_adams |
The EBR full system map and the RT-3 map are fairly similar, but shouldn't be maxing out the fuel pump. The highest number I recall seeing on the map was about 221 or so out of 255. Kinda odd that it runs fine with the stock ecm and not the race one, so I doubt it would be the CPS. | ||
| Clutchreaper |
I checked the fuel pressure in diagnostic mode according to the manual. It is within range. Do you think ECM SPY would help me pinpoint? Another thing to note is that the bike almost stalls when pulling out from a stop with the race ECM. The stock one pulls out great. I really wonder if its something with the IAC being open too far causing a lean condition with the race ECM. But why wouldn't it do it with the stock one? As far the system goes the exhaust is sealed TIGHT. The bike runs very well with the RT-3 and stock ECM. No popping at all, no surging, and low speed maneuvering is easier than when the stock exhaust was on. The stock ECM does a great job with AFRs with that exhaust. There is something the stock one has can compensate for or regulate that the EBR is missing on. Or maybe Im not thinking clearly on this. | ||
| Nuts4mc |
I have an '08 - rescued from the salvage yard...stock Cali exhaust- de-noided it...Once I got it reliable - I took it to the local HD dealer for the latest "flash" on the stock ECM - bike ran OK but was lean...hot,surging, hard starting, "knocked" when hot and I asked it to "pull" (lousy gas we have here on the left coast) Dynoed at 126hp @ 69ftlbs. bought the race ECM for the stock Cali pipe - it runs great ( even with our lousy gas) timing, fueling had to be changed to make the bike run smoother - the Noid is automatically "turned off" with the race ECM - I did do the de-noid procedure which requires tying the butterflys together....I doubt the solenoid is the issue on your bike - but it sounds like something is confusing the race ecm up in the throttle bodies. suggestion- when changing ecms, I disconnect my battery - remove the old ecm - install the new ecm and then reconnect the batt. Then do a TPS re-set and let it idle for about 20 minutes...I don't know if it will help but it sure sounds like the IAC or the TPS is not "talking" to the race ecm on yours. If you go with the ECM Spy route - suggest you do it with a dyno ...so you can easily see the results of changes you make on the program. hope this helps (Message edited by nuts4mc on June 24, 2013) | ||
| Cherry_bomb |
o2 sensors damaged or not working properly? | ||
| Clutchreaper |
I'm going to plug the EBR back in and ride it in diagnostic mode and record everything available. Then I'll compare to all of the stock ECM info and see where there may be a hang up. Maybe something will show out of whack. | ||
| Xtreme6669 |
You will have to unplug the speed sensor to ride in diag mode... | ||
| S21125r |
First thought is a TPS reset. If you still need to find the needle in the haystack after that then my suggestion would be put the stock ECM in AND the stock muffler on then ride it long enough that the AFV #'s stabilize. Stock ECM and Stock muffler should net you somewhere close to 100 AFV +/- 10 maybe (mine never deviates by more than 5...). If the AVFs are still high at that point then you'll know the ECM had to compensate for either be too much air (intake leak, Stuck IAC) or not enough fuel (clogged injector, low pump pressure). Certainly not an all inclusive issue list but the point is to eliminate as many variables as possibly and to use the AFV numbers from the stock ECM as a guide on where to look. | ||
| Kruizen |
The only variable, that isn't working is the EBR ECM. OP says bike runs fine with exhaust and stock ECM. Puts in the EBR ECM and has issues. sounds like he either has a bad connection on EBR ECM or wrong map. | ||
| Clutchreaper |
I've reset the TPS numerous times. Not an issue. Even tried an IAC reset (can't remember off the top of my head anymore how to do it). Didn't help. I've read other posts about stock ECMs with the RT-3 and I would say my AFRs are pretty good compared to others. I won't have a chance to dick around with it until the weekend. The thought of having to put the stock exhaust on to test is irritating since I don't know where all the parts are, but...I totally agree with it. It is a process of elimination and it's crossed my mind with a cringe. I sent the EBR ECM back to them and they tested it and reflashed it. The mapping was for an RT-3 and it ran great until one day after riding around at RA I fired it up and it ran like sh*t. I wonder if somebody had another EBR ECM in the area would let me try theirs out and see if the results are the same. Its easy to tell within the first couple of minutes riding. | ||
| Kruizen |
I don't know why you would put stock exhaust back on or pull anything apart. You say It runs fine with stock ECM. The stock ECM uses all stock sensors, where as the EBR ecm can be set to not use o2 sensors, open/closed loop programming etc. Find another ebr ECM to test with. | ||
| Clutchreaper |
I'm not going to change out the exhaust. Thought about it some more last night and if it's not the problem its not getting changed. Its the fueling. If anybody on here is willing to help by borrowing out an EBR ECM, which is kind of awkward to ask for, I will pay for shipping costs and return immediately after a test run. Otherwise, I will have to go alternative routes, whichever those are. I will do a diagnostic check on all possibilities soon and report back. Thank you all for the help so far. I was starting to get clouded by over thinking it. | ||
| Zac4mac |
You've got mail | ||
| S21125r |
The reason I suggest stock ECM and stock exhaust is that the stock ECM will compensate by ramping the AFVs up if needed. My understanding is that the EBR ECM doesn't operate the same and either locks or resets AFVs back to 100 (some one verify please...). So if the stock calibration is made for the stock exhaust then you should be able to spot whether you have a fuel delivery or air leak problem by watching the AFV climb significantly above 100. If it's out of whack enough and if it's confirmed that the EBR ECM won't learn like the stock one, then it will never compensate for the current mechanical issue with your engine. BTW - if it is confirmed that the EBR ECM will compensate just like the stocker, then I'm all wet and apologize in advance for leading you on a goose chase. For what it's worth, there have been a handful of post over the past couple of years with symptoms similar to yours and I believe one was a manifold leaks and couple were were bad/clogged injectors. Good luck - and let us know how it goes. | ||
| Clutchreaper |
Thanks. Zack. I responded. S21125r, I get what you're saying and I did research the hell outta it. Your line of think is right but let me explain why I believe otherwise. My AFRs don't reflect an intake leak when matched with the RT-3. They are on the lower end when compared to other riders with the same setup. Also, the lean condition is across both cylinders and it is so lean that the plugs show no carbon buildup at all; they look like new. The EBR ECM should at least be able to leave some kind of deposit on one of the cylinders if it was an intake leak. When the condition happened it was immediate, right on a start-up and I could tell it was trouble. It ran perfect right up to that point. It was like a switch was flipped and shit ensued. Zack is being a good Samaritan and hopefully I will get some answers as to what is going on soon. Who knows what the results will be. All I care about is getting things right. | ||
| D_adams |
The only way you're going to know 100% for sure what it's doing is put wideband sensors on it. I do know the EBR unit is tuned for under 13:1 A/F ratio. | ||
| Clutchreaper |
Dean, what else would go with the widebands? I wouldn't just swap them with the 02s and run it as is then, or would I? What would I be able to pull from this? Wouldn't I need to somehow log it with widebands and then review the data? I've never tuned before so pardon the questions about using widebands.  | ||
| D_adams |
That's pretty much what I did on both bikes. Installed widebands, wired in the narrow band side to the stock connections, then use tunerpro rt to log it. I'm only using the wideband for visual reference myself to see what it's doing. I've heard that the 1125 can accept wideband data, but I've never hooked it up to try it. I'd go this route. Yes it's on my xb, but it's still the same info. The display on my 1125 is a lot smaller and harder to read at a glance. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Jesse I can't find your reply in my mail... Offer stands tho, let me know. Z | ||
| Clutchreaper |
Zack, I just sent the reply again. My tablet gets a little weird at times so maybe it didn't go through the first time. Thanks | ||
| Clutchreaper |
If you still don't get it let me know. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Got it Jesse. Will try to get it out today. Z Nope, had to ride 80 miles north to Cheyenne to get meds from the VA. I WILL get it out tomorrow.. (Message edited by zac4mac on July 02, 2013) | ||
| Zac4mac |
It went out Priority Mail on Wed the 3rd. Not bad, cost 11 bucks with insurance. Z | ||
| Clutchreaper |
Thanks Zack! I'll be watching for it! | ||
| Clutchreaper |
Well, it's not the ECM. It ran even shittier with Loretta's which would point to the bike. Pulling out of an intersection sucks. As soon as I start letting the clutch out and giving it a bit of throttle it stumbles hard and damn near shuts off. I have to give it a substantial rev to keep it from falling on its face. No error codes. Fuel pressure in Diag mode while running with Loretta's ECM was in the same range, about 415 KPA at 4000 RPM. Does anybody have the readings in diagnostic mode with a bike that has an EBR ECM and runs right? The readings should be when the bike is warmed up. Like IAC steps, MAP, voltage readings, etc. Idle to 4000 RPMs preferred. I would like to not have to start putting more money into widebands and testing, but if I have to so be it. Thanks. (Message edited by clutchreaper on July 06, 2013) | ||
| Clutchreaper |
One thing I noticed. The fuel KPA at 4000 on the EBR ECM was around 415. The fuel KPA on the stock ECM was more around 390-405. This would ge attributed to the stock ECM flowing more fuel? Or would it not be that because the pressure sensor is independent and placed before the injectors. You would think if the stock ECM flowed more fuel then there would be less back pressure for the sensor to read off of. BTW, as I was giving my bike a lobotomy somebody living above the parking garage had to be smoking some serious pot. It was like a cloud down there.  | ||
| Clutchreaper |
Zack. I emailed you. I wonder if there isn't a leak in the vacuum assist line which would be why both cylinders are affected. Tomorrow is another troubleshooting day. | ||
| Zac4mac |
I don't remember the numbers exactly but 415 is better than 395-405. "key on-motor off" should be 517 or 527 kPa IIRC. The pressure issues I've seen(relating to a bad pump) are - good numbers while running but way-low on "key on-motor off". That mode seems to be responsible for WFO transients. No LSR for you!!! Z | ||
| Clutchreaper |
Lol. Can you clarify the key on motor off fuel pressure? Mine hits 517 at key on but then starts to drop before starting it. The manual does not state whether the pressure is allowed to drop after key on or if its supposed to hold. After it hits the pressure its a constant fall until I start it. |
