| Author | Message | ||
     Snackbar64 |
Hey Guys, Just trying to get some perspective here. For years it has been said that V-Twins have no shot at competing with the likes of Gixxer 1000s, R1s the list goes on. How good are these new V-Twin bikes from Ducati and Buell? Does their 195 HP and 175 HP compete with any new liter bike on the street? Also what Makes a Hyabusa so much faster when its horsepower numbers are the same or lower than that of the Ducati? I believe. Does the Buell or Panigale stand a chance in a straight line? Why not? What's the secret to it all? Your thoughts are much appreciated. | ||
| D_adams |
Haven't you watched any of the ama races lately? Between Geoff and Danny, there's been multiple top 5-10 finishes against IL-4's and they keep moving closer to the podium with every race. | ||
| Snackbar64 |
No I haven't seen any of them. | ||
| Terrys1980 |
The August '12 Cycle World issue covered this pretty well. The Panigale is as fast or faster than most of the liter bikes. The Buell is right up there. The last time I checked the 1190RS was in the top 5 in AMA Superbike!? Although the Busa is fast, the Hayabusa isn't really a true super bike it's more of a sport touring bike. Even though it's HP is in the 170 range, it has at least 20 ft-lbs more torque than any of the liter and v-twin bikes. The 1190RS is a new bike and doesn't have the years or millions of dollars spent on R&D. It's all about usable power. | ||
| Terrys1980 |
#5 Geoff May and #7 Danny Eslick both ride the 1190RS. http://amaproracing.com/rr/events/standings.cfm?cl ass=sb | ||
| Reepicheep |
The physics behind the whole thing are really interesting. The twins really are at a disadvantage from a physics standpoint... four smaller masses moving through a shorter stroke will always be able to rev higher than two bigger masses moving through a longer stroke. So any tricks you use to make the twins more powerful can also be used to make the fours even more powerful. That being said, if someone is only shopping for peak HP, and you plan to use the bike for anything more than 1/4 mile drag races, they are missing out on 90% of what makes a great motorcycle. There is SO much more to it than that. Even in terms of power, "peak HP" (which is what is always quoted) is the power your bike makes at one specific (very high) RPM. Below that RPM, the bike is making less than peak power. So if your bike is say a 170 HP superbike and you are at 5000 RPM, you aren't making 170 HP even with the throttle WFO. You are making 70 HP if you are lucky. An 1125 is making 70 HP at about that same RPM. So if you were on both bikes and whacked the throttle at the same RPM, the lighter bike is faster. Now when you hit 9500 RPM, the 1125 needs to shift, and the inline four can keep reving for another 20% (and therefore has another 20% higher peak horsepower). But only when you are riding at those extreme RPM's. And frankly, riding at that high an RPM for extended time (and that high a power) is annoying, dangerous, and unplesant. The way Ducati gets those big power numbers out of their motors is to go to absurd oversquare piston dimensions. Meaning a very short stroke with an incredibly large piston. This makes for a poor fuel mix at low RPM, which leads to awful fuel economy and poor performance at low RPM. It drives like a freight train at high RPM though. If you really are shopping just for peak power, you should be looking at the inline fours, its the thing they do best (but at the expense of other characterstics). I had one inline four, and hated the power characteristics, so I'll never go back if I can help it. But some people aren't bothered by them. | ||
| Craigg |
I think my 125R compares more to a 750 then an actually liter bike if you are looking at drag numbers. The reasons I like my buell over my previous GSXR 600 is more consistant power throughout the whole power band. There is no burst like in the inline 4s. Where after a certain RPM it gets to redline so quick. Also the torque is great for throttling out of a corner if you are in the wrong gear. These are my opions not sure how accurate they are. Just how it feels to me. Though I will have to admit I have more expierence on a Vtwin. I do think about going back to an inline every now and then. | ||
| Snackbar64 |
Wow! Reepicheep thanks for the info and deep perspective. Yeah Craigg all I have ridden are Buells. I have only tested my buddy's 954. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I enjoy thinking about it (though I generally over-simplify it to a large degree just to keep my head wrapped around it). Even if you can get the crank and connecting rods strong enough to move two bigger and heavier pistons faster through a longer stroke (relative to an inline four), you come up against another barrier, oil film strength. When you move metal across metal, good oils will form a few molecule wide lubrication barrier and keep them from wearing. But it turns out that if those two materials are moving relative to each other above a certain speed, then the molecular film boundary will break, and oil looses it's ability to lubricate. That is another factor that limits how fast an internal combustion engine can rev. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
The reality is that , in real life, the difference comes down to the nut holding the handlebars. | ||
| Jaimec |
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| Bob_thompson |
Reep said: "When you move metal across metal, good oils will form a few molecule wide lubrication barrier and keep them from wearing. But it turns out that if those two materials are moving relative to each other above a certain speed, then the molecular film boundary will break, and oil looses it's ability to lubricate" Very true and I will add: for that reason most "race" engines incorporate greater clearances for oil retention then do street production type engines. It really IS a tradeoff between the two uses and why race engines need rebuilds more often. With the profound thought that one should never "really" race on the street I have found my 1125R is one of the best compromises in comfort, handling and usable H.P. there is but I do not race it. I just ride very quick sometimes. The new 1190RS might just be overkill on the street but many will want it if the price is right. At least the street version. | ||
| Sprintst |
I grew up with I4's and never considered a Vtwin to a modern, desirable engine All that changed when I rode a buddy's 1098, and was driven home when I bought my 1125 For the street, they are way better, imo. Tons of playful torque, plenty of top end power, rev well, what more could I want? I will always take more power, but I never feel deficient with this bike, and that's the first bike I've owned I can honestly say that. I never feel lacking when riding with buddies on liter bikes (Message edited by sprintst on August 10, 2012) | ||
| Ratbuell |
As noted above, twins provide much more torque, which makes them more "rideable" in the real world. You can be in the "wrong" gear and still get through a turn, accelerate up a hill, etc. I4 torque numbers are virtually nil, compared to a twins numbers. They are peaky. You have to spin them to make power, or they're relatively "flat". Their powerband is much narrower. Straight-line performance is about half power, and half chassis. Buells are short-wheelbase bikes with lots of torque. Torque, by definition, "rotates" - as in, a short-wheelbase bike's wheel towards the sky. Road racing is vehicle dynamics - power is only a fraction of the equation. Braking. Handling. Balance. Consistency. And of course, the loose nut behind the bars  The 1190RS may be down on power compared to some of the competition...but the track record that Geoff and Danny are laying down for the season proves that it's more than just raw HP that puts you in the front of the pack. Read the old Buell lit - Trilogy of Tech in particular. Low unsprung weight. Mass Centralization. Chassis Rigidity. These are key features of Buell motorcycles, and they're more than just marketing terms. They're actual engineering concepts, and their worth is being proven on these racetracks around the country. I forget the exact source, but I want to say it was RRW that said recently "the rake and trail that the Buells have...should not work, according to the racing world. But...it does." Or a quote similar to that. Erik thinks outside the box. The box appears to be getting bigger, as far as "what works". Imagine what a couple more seasons' of race R&D will net | ||
| Buellmojo |
Z1K/Ninja 1K??? | ||
| Snackbar64 |
I agree Bob, The 1125R has more than enough power to get me from point A to B in a hurry. I don't really want to race it either as I'd like to preserve it. | ||
| Ridegreen2oo |
Now what's everyone's take on a V4, like in the Aprilia RSV4 ? I've never ridden one, so just curious on their characteristics. Is it more similar to an I4,V twin, or kind of in between? | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Great question Ridegreen2oo. I think probably more like I4's but I would have to think first about their firing order; weather each cylinder fires individually as 1,4,3,2 or if they fire two at a time, 1&4, 3&2 which I don't think they do. Engineers for MC dirt track racing figured out years ago that traction to the ground takes place in that mili-second between power firing cycles. That can contribute to better traction throughout the rpm range and better pull out of the turns. And more then likely why I4's with the better H.P. "NEED" traction control. I believe the V-4's main advantage is a narrower engine and bike. | ||
| Brumbear |
It's all in the riders and now the electronics @ the top level all the bikes there can compete IMO | ||
| Craigg |
Ridegreen2oo from what I've read in all the magazine. Everyone loves the RSV4 engine. | ||
| Crowley |
I've ridden one, and while I can't fault it (very good in fact) it doesn't 'grunt' like a V twin. Not really my cup of tea. Maybe, this is what Yamaha were after with their R1 ' Big Bang' motor? | ||
| Oldog |
On engine Rpm numbers there is a factor called mean piston speed, some years ago the limit was about 4500 fps beyond that your motor is going to suffer oiling and metal issues, having about 50K miles on a mild IL4 and the older TF buells, the HD motor for all of its draw backs is still a hoot to ride and on a tight road the tractable v2 engine ( rotax or hd ) work well, you spend less mental energy managing the motor and more working on riding my 0.02$ the Japanese have good engines but the idea of having to disturb the cams to set valve clearences is not some thing that I like to consider, Even though you have to rotate or pull the frame to get to the rotax the actual work setting the valve clearences is fairly strait forward | ||
| Curve__carver |
I4s not being able to produce torque is a myth. It may have been true years ago & and is still true for small I4s. For big bore I4s, it really comes down the state of tune. If the desired result of the state of tune is max peak HP, low end and midrange power will suffer incrementally. Even the Panigale is tuned for max top end at a cost of some low and mid range power. If you ride a modern literbike, I seriously doubt your first reaction will be that they are down on power anywhere. When I4s are 'tuned for midrange' (which usually means they will not sell in the US), the power delivery is extremely close to what many consider to be the advantage of twins. Consider bikes like: Ninja 1000/Z100 121hp 72tq Bandit 1250 93hp 73tq @ 3,500 RPM FZ1 125hp 68tq I have owned many twins and many I4s. I like both. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Iamarchangel ~ "the nut holding the handlebars" +1. | ||
| Sprintst |
Peak numbers are always deceptive, since we seldom run these engines at their peaks You really need to view the whole curve, and see the power under that curve for a better picture of how it will feel | ||
| Crowley |
My 1198 Duc puts out 98ft/lb for a spread of nearly 5k rpm on a Dyno (although it's got Termis and the DP ecu) and that's what makes it so 'driveable'. An IL4 may make similar torque but may be for not as long. I've no idea what a 'Busa makes. | ||
| Duphuckincati |
I'm of the mind also that fours for the track and twins for the street, but it does come down to individual motor designs. Ride an I-4 1979 Yamaha XS1100 and you'll find no need to "keep the rev's up". And what about I-4 farm tractors? The word on the new Ducati is that it has very little low-down and needs to be spinning for any power. | ||
| Curve__carver |
It's state of tune. Bikes tuned for street do better on the street. Bikes tuned for track do better on the track. Shocking  Z1000 Dyno http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/2010/146_1003_2010 _kawasaki_z1000_dyno/photo_01.html 1125R Dyno http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/122_080 7_2008_buell_1125r_versus_2008_aprilia_rsv1000r/ph oto_18.html These numbers and curves are very similar. They both make about 60 ft/lbs at 3,500 rpm. The Buell's torque curve is slightly flatter. I've ridden these bikes back to back. Power delivery is quite similar. | ||
| Sprintst |
Side by side Buell 1125R  Kawaski Z1000  (Message edited by sprintst on August 13, 2012) | ||
| Curve__carver |
Thanks Sprint. I suspect that the design criteria for both motors was pretty similar. Wide flat spread of torque, lots of hp (subjective of course), and primarily meant for street duty. For the 1125 the street duty part was probably imposed by HD, but I digress. The end result is shockingly similar for 2 completely different engine designs 1043cc I4 vs 1125cc V2. | ||
| Coastrambler |
As it happens I took test rides on a Z1000 and a Ninja 1000 back to back at the AMA Womens Motorcyclist Conference 2 weeks ago, with a lady friend. A very good test. Carson City, NV up to Virginia City and back. Some very fast twisties and sweeping curves, sharp downhills. Hit 80 at one point. Liked the Ninja more. Both very smooth, capable. Felt like they were less fun than my 1125R. The Buell has more pazazz and panache. Now I want to go back with the 1125 and ride the same route, would have been nice to do that then. Was there on the V-Rod. | ||
| Curve__carver |
^^^ In terms of handling manners I would definitely give the edge to the 1125R. Lighter, better performing chassis, higher spec suspensions bits, etc. IMO, power delivery is a coin toss. | ||
| Sir_wadsalot |
It's about rideability- Two words...POWER PULSES. (I have a pic of my SV1K rear tire with credit card sized patches worn into the shoulders where the power pulses hit on exit)....I don't care what the dyno says, when you slam open the throttle on exit at lean, the I4 will break traction first. Linear power vs pulses. This is why good riders on SV650s or supermotos blow by literbikes in the corners, they can put more power down on exit, earlier. It is the whole point of racing a twin, the deficit is you are weaker on top end, but it's faster to be fast in the slow bits, as they say. The V4 splits the diff, toward the 4 end smoother, Triples split it to the twin side, torquier. That being said, an expert who can control the wheelspin on the four can use the extra power....99% can't...thus traction control on almost all the liter bikes now. I promise you the next CBR1000RR will have it. Busa's are faster because they have big, stupid power. Long wheel base, lazy rake/trail, long swingarm. Makes it easy to go in a straight line, garbage on the race track. Good sport tourer, bad corner carver. When parity can be achieved twins are always competative....look at Ducati in WSB, only recently knocked off by the crossplane R1, which emulates twin power characteristics....the Honda RC51 was only raced two seasons, I think, and took the AMA title both years. The Suzuki TL/SV1K motor was a monster but never utilised by Suzuki for fear of cutting into Gixxer sales....but Bimota ran the it in WSB on year when they couldnt get the Duc 999 engine and were competative, and the 1K is a blast at the track. It's all about what you want the bike for. Sport touring? Corner carving? Twin or V4 all day, who wants to worry about highsiding on throttle? Enter the turn a gear high? Crack it open and tractor it out...it's addictive on track and spoils you on the road. Big sport tourer? I4...why not? I'm not gettin the knee down, and big stupid power with hard luggage is kewl. Squid wanting to do stand up wheelies on the highway on youtube and blow by cops at 170? Literbike all the way baby! So sayeth Sir Wadsalot, Master of All Things Twin. (Except Buells) |
