| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
Here's a photo from a motorcycle.com article showing a closeup:  Notice you can't see daylight through the slots, then look at the edge of the rotor. It looks like a "sandwich" of metal with perhaps an insulating material in the middle? I'd be interested to hear more about this. | ||
| 1324 |
I clearly don't have any insight into this rotor, but I don't think it is a sandwich-design. The slots are on both sides, but don't go all the way through. The edges of the rotor look to have the same machined groove my 5 mm finned rotor has. Now the wheel! That is the ticket! | ||
| Davegess |
One of the first products Erik designed and brought to market was a stainless steel aluminum sandwiched rotor. Very light but he had trouble getting the mill to provide the material for a motorcycle application. The potential liability scared the crap out of them. If they had not backed out Erik would likely be a very rich man today. Honda wanted to use them on all their sport bikes. The entire Buell story would be different. | ||
| 1324 |
Interesting information, that surely would have changed things for all of us. Technology continues to improve in the materials business, so maybe there is still hope. My fingers are crossed... | ||
| Velocity |
Lets hope he sells it on his web, I can see that on my 1125r  Scott | ||
| Drawkward |
Court....Anonymous..... Any info on this rotor? Looks like nothing any of us have seen that's currently on the market. | ||
| Ratsmc |
I'm not seeing much different in that Rotor. Clearly, it isn't exactly the same as the finned rotor they sell on the site but it is the same concept. It just has a groove around the circumference. | ||
| Court |
Look . . let's face it . . . Erik's been obsessed with the science of converting motion to heat for a long time. Two years ago, while we could still capture it, he and I spent time in the barn and I, ever the enthusiast, confess I was impressed by some of the stuff he did years before CAD and some of the testing techniques now available. He still has the original blueprints, yep real hand drawn blueprints, and the reality of some of the changes that Buell went through saw much of the work in progress frozen in motion. There is a mill with some of Henry's work on some rotors that sits there as if he left it yesterday. Shelves with parts and pieces of "tired and failed" and "tried and moved forward a bit" brake experiments are still there. Brakes are simple science . . . . but pushing their performance limits is the perfect puzzle for the innovative and creative mind. We know how good they CAN be . . . . now, how can we make them better. Beyond mere "fitness for purpose", in it's intended role to slow/stop a motorcycle, the 1190RS brake is, as has been mentioned, PURE ART. Harry Wirth would be proud. I'm not exactly certain what the characteristics of the one you see here are. I do know that smart folks have been hard at work on this. . . . 2nd place does little to move the Buell game piece across the board at this point. I suspect we'll be hearing a great deal more about the brakes and some various components on the bike, For those of you attending Homecoming this year, you'll get to hear more about the development and the work of a couple "old time" Elves who's names never make headlines but who are toiling away . . . The Leash Came Off . . . . .  | ||
| Jdugger |
The fins on the inside and outside edge of the rotor look the same to me as the 5mm product they sell presently. The vents for off-gassing are different, in that they are slots and also not through the rotor. Also, the hardware kit is different than the improved mounting kit they sell presently. The bolts look lighter without that huge head on them. | ||
| Court |
>>>Notice you can't see daylight through the slots Are you seeing daylight or perhaps some other material in the center? I, truthfully, don't know but it almost looks like a ceramic material sandwiched in there . . . . they didn't???...they couldn't?? . . no. . . .don't tell me! ! | ||
| Hughlysses |
I, truthfully, don't know but it almost looks like a ceramic material sandwiched in there That's exactly what I thought when I first saw it. It does look like the existing "finned" 5mm E_B_R brake rotor, except that it apparently has some substance in what were open spaces on that rotor. As 1324 says, it doesn't look like it can be a true "sandwich" as the stainless material is solid at the mounting points, but they could have cut the edge slot all the way through the rotor between the mounting points and then filled that with something. Like I said, whatever they've done, it's interesting and I'm sure it's something very cool.  | ||
| Dannybuell |
My first thought was sandwich over ceramic. then Ratsmc suggested a groove in the circumference. The mystery continues... | ||
| Stirz007 |
The 6mm finned and drilled rotor, available from the fine folks over at Erik Buell Racing, is similar when viewed on-end. Or, it's the same, except drilled instead of slotted. | ||
| Steve_a |
The rotor is in stainless, as all Buell (or Erik Buell Racing) production and race ZTL rotors in the past have been. (There certainly have been experimental rotors in other materials; either cost, performance, or rules issues have meant that they have never been selected for even race production, though at least one of them was very promising) This rotor is the best ever, says the man who designed it -- but fortunately Geoff May will similarly attest to that, as he ran it toward the end of last season, including VIR and Barber. It's made from one piece of stainless, with deeper fins on the ID than previous finned rotors, with shallow slots instead of holes serving as the pad wiping features, with detail changes to the rotor mounting flanges to reduce weight, in 5mm thickness rather than the 6mm of recent race rotors. There also has been a lot of work on rotor mounting for extreme racing conditions at Erik Buell Racing, and that led to some subtle changes to this rotor from the first prototypes that were tested in 2009. You'll see that reflected in the production bike. The combination of the brake cooling duct, caliper changes, pad changes, pad backing plate changes, rotor changes, and rotor-mounting changes involving wheel, rotor, and other mounting hardware have all produced a more-than-competitive brake system for Superbike racing, something that many people doubted would ever happen with the ZTL. (Energy dumped in the system goes up with the square of speed increases, so the 20-25 mph increase in top speed of a Superbike over a DSB bike is a really big deal). Geoff is very, very happy with the 1190RS brake system, even at Road America at Superbike race distance, a track so hard on brakes that a Honda dual-disk system failed there a few years ago on one of their works Superbikes. Erik will almost certainly be selling this rotor (this is my assumption; I haven't specifically asked) for Buell racers as it will mount to XB/1125 wheels. While the absolutely best solution would be to use the new 1190RS front wheel, Erik Buell Racing I believe is offering mounting hardware with the advantages of the new design that will work with the old wheels. The rotor can also be used with the old mounting system, but the new system offers better brake feel. At this point, the addition of a 1190RS wheel would allow every bit of this system -- and it most definitely is a system, with changes to every part -- to be used on a 1125 or XB. A little bit of work would be required to fit the wheel, as its designed to work with a 5mm bigger axle. (Message edited by steve_a on February 21, 2011) | ||
| 99buellx1 |
I've also seen the brake rotors in the old shed. Cool stuff it was. | ||
| Steeleagle |
Is there a benefit to having an insulating material (ceramic) as part of the "sandwich"? Seems like all the heat generated would be collected by the "bread", making it hotter, but therefore more easily rejected due to the greater thermal delta. Interesting topic. I guess my posting is a little slow. The post above explains better. Thanks! (Message edited by steeleagle on February 21, 2011) | ||
| Court |
Steve: Thanks! That settles that. Court | ||
| Cataract2 |
From the looks of that wheel and bearing I would say it'll fit our current XB/1125's. How much for that sucker? | ||
| Betzy |
Great review and insight Steve_a. I have the upgraded Erik Buell Racing front ZTL and it was night and day with the stocker! I wonder how much more of an upgrade this one is to mine? I only have 1125r engine with Erik Buell Racing Race ECM and Full Erik Buell Racing race exhaust so not the 190rwhp... I also weigh more than 230lbs so all the stopping power is needed | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
I really hope many of those parts can be fitted on 1125 models. If not Erik Buell Racing should develop parts to make them fit. | ||
| Jdugger |
I'll bet ya that rotor is a bolt on. I don't know, but I'll bet. The same rotor that works on the old XBRR 16.5" wheels also works on modern 1125r wheels. I want the wheel, though. I wonder if a bearing swap could make it happen... | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
i bet thats beryllium in the middle of the rotor...  Jake | ||
| D_adams |
Jim, I think I read that the axle is 5mm larger in diameter. | ||
| Hughlysses |
All the info you need about fitting this to older Buells is in Steve Anderson's post above. | ||
| Jdugger |
> Jim, I think I read that the axle is 5mm larger in diameter. Yes... The chain drive kit uses a larger axle, too, and the solution is a "low profile" bearing in the otherwise OEM rear wheel. Hence my question about a bearing swap... | ||
| Blake |
Thank you Steve! So nice to learn. | ||
| Stirz007 |
Not the best pics, sorry, but the new 6mm rotor:   link: http://www.EBRacing.com/shop/product6.html | ||
| Court |
>>>i bet thats b*******um in the middle of the rotor... You may not say b*******um. It's like Beetlejuice . . . you say it 3 times and suddenly some guy who is half a lawyer and half an engineer shows up, spouts silliness, then vanishes like the Wicked Witch of the West. Poof. | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
HAHAHAHAHA touche court, i guess that wasnt enough, i want a doctor, judge, astronaut, oil tycoon, billionaire to tell me of the wrong doings and idioracy's Erik Buell has done for this industry, buisness, and COUNTRY (yes i know buell-aid, but guess what im talking RESPECT in the ENTIRE racing community) you know i bet Erik comes here sometimes for a good chuckle and think to himself (if they only knew the half of it...) id be pleased to know that Erik would be a few of the anonymous posters that people claimed were dead wrong and didnt know squat lol Jake | ||
| Jdugger |
A few of the anony posters DO make errors from time to time. No one's perfect. The anony posts in the big rotor debate thread are an example when the vent holes were cited for clearing dust, etc. They are for outgassing. Stirz, Do you think the 6mm is worth the weight? Were you still having heat issues with the 5mm finned rotor? (Message edited by jdugger on February 22, 2011) |
