| Author | Message | ||
     Drdorsey |
This just out. HD recieved 2.3 billion of my tax money. Maybe for a couple of more BILLION they could have treated their Buell customers better...not! | ||
| Mickeyq |
Is that true? Here is a recent statement from the big hog, "As previously announced, Harley-Davidson anticipates a reduction in the size of its Wisconsin production workforce upon implementation of the new labor agreements in 2012," and this kinda ties in with this statement, "Harley-Davidson Inc. said Tuesday it will open a factory in India in the first half of next year...will assemble motorcycles from kits...Harley currently imports fully built motorcycles, which cost more than kits because of higher taxes." Globalization is true progress...more like redistribution of wealth. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
nice, a 'not' joke.... | ||
| Daniii |
Dude, the India plant is only for bikes for sale in India. It avoids a huge import tax. Don't try to make something out of what isn't there. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
daniii - exactly, thank you. people need not get so worked up over it, they've been doing it in Brazil for a decade | ||
| Jdugger |
The borrowed $2.3B from the federal reserve when the commercial paper market dried up and the fed started acting like an ordinary commercial bank for a while. I'm no fan of HD. Actually, I hope they fail and go bankrupt and disappear from the earth. But the facts of the situation are not what you imply, and it doesn't take much effort to get a decent understanding of the issues involved. | ||
| Mickeyq |
People will pay through the nose for a Duk--even in advance of production. You don't see that company building plants in other countries. We have free, virtually wide open trade here in the US--but the other countries slam our products with "higher taxes". Why should we bend over backwards. The perception that USA is the best is being decimated. HD is just another example. What is GM doing; building cars in China. | ||
| Ratsmc |
Mickeyq, nearly every car company from Japan builds or assembles cars here rather than import them. Before getting angry and self-righteous, learn the facts. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Ratsmc - I may be wrong but I think Mickeyq was speaking about the unfair playing field that occurs when USA products are tariffed into being unobtainable while the same countries products come here with no tariffs and with predatory intent are priced low. | ||
| Jules |
Mickeyq - HD bullied the US govt to put restrictive import duties onto foreign bikes just to keep them afloat decades ago, so before anyone whinges about how other countries slam US products with "higher tax" you need to look closer to home! Don't get me wrong, I love the US of A but I absolutely hate it when some citizens of that fine country start to say it's all the fault of the rest of the world. Import duty is a fact of life - everywhere. | ||
| Reepicheep |
LOL. Yeah, keep telling yourself that. | ||
| Mickeyq |
Wasn't knocking Japan--they are one of our best friends! For example, I own a Kawasaki KDX400--made in the USA. Yes, I remember when HD lobbied and got tariffs on imports over 700cc; but HD did not want to build modern bikes then (sounds familiar) in order to compete. The other countries have always restricted the amount of US products that would compete with their own industries--that's a fact. It's a delicate subject for sure. Fact of the matter is US continues to lose jobs, we import almost all of the oil we consume, and practically everything we buy now is made in China. I would like to see how the unions would react to wages being set to Chinese levels. Like yesterday, I would like to see all US autos, trucks, buses run on natural gas (LNG). This is a fuel we have an overabundance of, technology readily available, cheaper, runs cleaner and it is 100% USA production. 2/3 of our trade deficit comes from petroleum imports. Why do you think Qatar got the soccer cup--cause they have all our money. I've traveled and worked in other countries and for a US company to open shop there is a real challenge (to put it mildly). We restrict ourselves with regulations in regard to doing business overseas and our competition has a free pass from their own govt. China changed their restrictive system and opened up to US companies, only because they saw $ and the opportunity to take the ball and run. United we stand, divided we fall. I'm saving my dollars to buy the next Buell/Erik Buell Racing--that I am sure of! I think I'm getting a 6 of LeinenKugel as soon as I get the heck out of work... | ||
| Court |
>>>>It avoids a huge import tax. And Harley-Davidson . . .to avoid that large import tariff (it's 110% if you need to know) was party to a deal that's just a bit tough . . . with a straight face . . to explain.
Be mindful that . . in addition . . this is 4 year old news. To see the parts where it really gets good . . . as they say "follow the mangoes". You'll find some very interesting relationships and transactions. Fortunately Indian laws are far less stringent than ours . . . | ||
| Drdorsey |
Yeah, I like "not" jokes to! "People will pay through the nose for a Duk--even in advance of production. You don't see that company building plants in other countries." That is a great point. A quote from Buell in my newly arrived Motorcyclist magazine: "Buell was disrupting HD's ability to focus on it's core customers." By core customers he probably meant Indians. I'm sure it was the 2.3 BILLION that distracted their focus. $2,300,000,000 buys alot of chrome! Thank You Mr. Bernanke for...your honesty? | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Reepi - again, they've been doing this in Brazil for a decade now, you dont see them bringing in Brazilian HDs, do you? | ||
| Gschuette |
Do you have a source? I assume this is concerning the short term financing that the fed provided many big companies when the short term paper market dried up post lehman. Some context would be nice here as most in this thread seem content to ignore facts. | ||
| Zac4mac |
I just got this in an e-mail the other day. Now I understand... It is a slow day in the small Saskatchewan town of Pumphandle , and streets are deserted. Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody is living on credit. A tourist visiting the area drives through town, stops at the motel, and lays a $100 bill on the desk saying he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs to pick one for the night. As soon as he walks upstairs, the motel owner grabs the bill and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher. The butcher takes the $100 and runs down the street to retire his debt to the pig farmer. The pig farmer takes the $100 and heads off to pay his bill to his supplier, the Co-op. The guy at the Co-op takes the $100 and runs to pay his debt to the local prostitute, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer her "services" on credit. The hooker rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill with the hotel owner. The hotel proprietor then places the $100 back on the counter so the traveler will not suspect anything. At that moment the traveler comes down the stairs, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, picks up the $100 bill and leaves. No one produced anything. No one earned anything. However, the whole town is now out of debt and looks to the future with a lot more optimism. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how a Stimulus package works. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
wow, i actually really liked that Zac well said on how the whole deal works Though I think this is a little different, this was just a loan from America to keep some people going for a short bit but I agree, stimulus packages are a bit whack. the 600 bucks a few years ago was bogus cause it did exactly as you said | ||
| Forerunner |
I'm bet a lot of people would like a loan from America to keep going for a bit. Nels | ||
| Freight_dog |
Those bogus oversimplified emails annoy the hell out of me. That describes the whole economy, except the part where the rich guy who owns the town takes the $100 and ships it off to the Caymans so he doesn't have to pay any taxes and then passes it off tax free to his trust fund children. | ||
| Court |
>>>they've been doing this in Brazil for a decade now, Kind of. I think if you look into it you'll find the Brazil thing is quite a bit different. I don't remember the details but it had to do with someone or some dealer arrangement. HD is going to face much larger hurdles in India. My bet is that they didn't count on the Indian economy taking a dump (search "Bombay Bombshell" for details). The motorcycle industry in India is most certainly "in flux" with Honda looking to break up with Hero after 26 years. For more detail: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Honda-to-Quit-Indian -zacks-2906384716.html?x=0&.v=1 | ||
| Brumbear |
quote: Dude, the India plant is only for bikes for sale in India. It avoids a huge import tax. Don't try to make something out of what isn't there. look at how many jobs were lost to NAFTA and you will get a clearer picture of what is about to happen. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Freight_dog - +1 That 'little house on the prairie' story assumes that credit is a support network of individuals. Welcome to Big Business 101, time to wake up and smell the coffee. Banks that couldn't fail and bonuses for the talent in those industries that drove us to this precipice we call an economy. The real issues in America are closer to class warfare, the rich getting richer with more homeless families everyday. Keep sending those jobs overseas, put some more gas on the fire! What happens when the troops and contractors come home and their old job isn't there anymore? Meanwhile Richy Rich is driving by in his Sunday afternoon Ferrari as the masses are returning home from their weekly dose of hope. Wall Street or the homeless on the street? An answer that would help both is a domestic industrial policy that places key industries and infrastructures into the realm of national priority. Investments multiply dollars and jobs. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
court - I think youre a knowledgable guy but Im scratching my head on your post. It IS what they did in Brazil - build them here and then break them down to ship there and avoid taxes. I dont get what people dont understand about that, it makes it easier for HD and easier for consumers to buy - WIN WIN They get what they want to ride and an American company makes more profit. | ||
| Jdugger |
Let me guess Danny, the solution is a progressive income redistibution plan to make everything more equal and establish a new, fair "social justice" in this country? | ||
| Dannybuell |
Jdugger - did I say that? How do you measure the health of a society when every generation of Richy Riches wants to pay less taxes than their previous generation? How long will a society last when its most influential members refuse to accept any social responsibility? In ANY other country in the world people with those extremes in wealth employ armed security for every member of the family and live in gated communities. The trend of moving middle class jobs to Asia and then telling people to get more education. Get smarter so you can compete with Asians? It doesn't take brains to compete with the developing world just a willingness to have a lower standard of living. WTF! A society that takes a mans opportunity to provide Food, Shelter & Clothing for his family by sending jobs to other countries will not stand for very long. (Message edited by dannybuell on December 26, 2010) | ||
| Freight_dog |
Thanks Danny, I expected to get flamed for my post. To answer Jdugger, look at the relationship between historical highest tax bracket rates, and economic stability. The last time rates were this low was right before the Great Depression. We should expect continued economic instability until the rate on the highest levels of income are returned to +50%. Yes, income redistribution is real, yes it is a class war, and those of us who work for a living are losing in a big way. And believe me, paying more than 50% taxes on any income over a million, or even $250k is no hardship, nor does it hurt economic growth. Low taxes are not job creators, people buying stuff, and government expenditures are. When people who have everything they need get more money, they don't create job growth, they create Swiss bank account growth. Even "wasteful government spending" is usually spent on jobs for those who need it. I would rather have the government "waste" my tax dollars giving teachers good benefits than having Richie Rich buy another house in the Hamptons with those dollars. So much misdirected anger...thanks Faux News. | ||
| Milt |
Let's save this dialog for the Quick Board. (Message edited by milt on December 26, 2010) | ||
| Court |
I agree completely except I don't think the motivation, in the case of Brazil, was taxes. Brazil was done in an entirely different fashion. If I am not mistaken the 1998 opening of the facility in Manaus, Brazil had more to do with the HDSP/Grupo Izzo relationship than simple tariffs like the 110% tariff imposed in India. Harley-Davidson just announced, on December 2, 2010, plans for a major expansion in Brazil as a result of declining sales in the United States. I think . . although you're gonna make me go back and check my notes. . . that the Brazil arrangement had more to do with a person than regulation. Interesting side note . . there is a country where one frustrated local businessman said "screw it" and just bought a ton of Buells and sold them himself. There was also a nasty little game of chicken played when a foreign company opened a business called "Buell Motorcycle Company, LTD" . . they learned an interesting lesson. The Brazil facility, by the way, was opened about the same time HD opened Franklin and a number of other huge HD facilities . . Brazil is the only one of those still open. | ||
| Jdugger |
Less than 1% of the people in this country pay 40% of the federal tax bill. Move that number down to the top 10% and you get to close to 90%. Are you in the top ten? Well, a family consisting of a nurse and an IT professional are way above what it takes to cross that threshold. In fact, almost any two income family with one professional of any kind is likely way above the line. It's less than $140k per year. It's actually pretty shocking that more than 50% of Americans pay no tax at all, and that roughly one in ten are responsible for EVERYTHING you look around and see on a day to day basis. Roads, government, social security, unemployment insurnace... EVERYTHING. The entire bill for everyone is paid by a surprisingly tiny group of people. The "tax the rich" rhetoric gets pretty old pretty fast for me, because almost any ordinary professinoal easily qualifies as "rich", at least so far as taxation and distribution of tax liability are concerned. We actually tax the "rich" rather heavily in this country. Without them, we'd have nothing at all. They pay the vast quantity of the bils. If I were a wealthy person, I'd look to move my money into more tax friendly and advantageous jurisdictions, too. It's just common business sense, you know. |
