| Author |
Message |
    
Ponti1
| | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 08:56 am: | 
|
Highscore, have you tried relocated the ambient temp sensor?
I wonder if that would have a positive effect, or a negative one?
If the bike is getting hot air, but thinks it is getting cool, what actually happens? Does it add extra fuel to the mixture to compensate for the more dense air it *thinks* it is getting? |
Moosestang
| | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 09:06 am: |
|
I'm talking about moving it further inside the airbox. As I've said before, this is just a dyno thing. My ambient temps are the same as the actual air temp when moving or colder. |
Highscore
| | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 09:51 am: |
|
Yes, the problem with hot air and false readings by the AT-sensor is just a dyno thing.
But do not we talk here about dyno graphs which should prove, the EBR-ECM does not make its job properly?
Relocating the AT-sensor to a position, where it is not affected directly by the engine´s heat, may be helpful on the dyno. But this does not solve the problem, it does not avoid the engine of breathing that hot air, blown by the radiator fans onto the air box intake.
During normal riding the air stream around the bike dissipates this hot radiator air. At the dyno there is no air stream with + 50 mph. Therefore this special trouble occurs here. |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 09:54 am: |
|
Highscore has made a very interesting assertion. Ditto on Ponti1 and Moosestangs responses.
Nice presentation Highscore.
dannybuell
(Message edited by dannybuell on February 14, 2010) |
Ponti1
| | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 10:03 am: |
|
My mistake...I thought the suggestion was to move the sensor farther away, permanently.
I think follow now, though may be still one step off. The dyno rooms I have been in have all had pretty powerful fans blowing air on the front of the engine area, in addition to exhaust suction at the rear of the bike. Is the thought that these fans are still not equivalent to airflow at higher speeds, thus allowing lots of extra heat to tamper with IAT?
(Message edited by ponti1 on February 14, 2010) |
Moosestang
| | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 10:09 am: |
|
I'd still expect better results with the race ecm, heat or no heat.
Since EBR doesn't offer a race ecm for the stock exhaust, I was probably going to buy a power commander anyway. It would still be nice to see the race ecm on a stock bike or I should say another race ecm on another stock bike, because clearly something was wrong here. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 10:13 am: |
|
Moose, I read on another post here that EBR plans on selling a ECM configured for the stock pipe. |
Highscore
| | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 10:20 am: |
|
Always keep in mind that energy of an airstream raises by square, when its speed doubles. This is the same relation, valid for air drag.
To mobilize an airflow of 50 mph around a motorcycle, there is a fan necessary, powered by 20kw.
I do not think, such a fan is the standard equipment in a dyno compartment. |
D_adams
| | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 10:27 am: |
|
I'm still waiting on the race inner airbox. I can't imagine how you'd get even more capacity under the airbox cover, but I'd still like to see it. I'm guessing the intake snorkel will be a weee bit larger also. |
Justa4banger
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 01:51 am: |
|
It would still be nice to see the race ecm on a stock bike or I should say another race ecm on another stock bike, because clearly something was wrong here.
FYI, i put my bike back to stock and the bike runs fine..  |
Xelerator
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 10:03 am: |
|
4Banger, where did the dyno operator put the dyno's IAT sensor? Was it clamped to the airbox intake?
Thanks
Chris |
Justa4banger
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 01:09 pm: |
|
IAT sensor from a dyno... thats first... Neither shop that i went to hooked up or placed any IAT sensor near or on the bike.
I can't see what an IAT sensor for the dyno would do...can you explain your question. |
Xelerator
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 01:15 pm: |
|
The dyno would correct the results according to the ambient (intake) temperature. At least that's what I have experienced on car dyno's. |
Mountainstorm
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 01:23 pm: |
|
J_Banger did the Dyno operator properly pressurize the blinker fluid? It can throw off the ECM if the blinker fluid isn't pumped up to at least 80 PSI. On the road the blinker fluid is pressurized by the RAM air intake on the foot pegs, but without a 20 KW fan you can't keep the pressure up without injecting some liquid nitrogen. Just a heads up. |
Xelerator
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 01:47 pm: |
|
Now that's expertise you can trust!  |
Mountainstorm
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 02:38 pm: |
|
Just living those Buell Values |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 03:27 pm: |
|
Mountainstorm;
I must add one thing to your procedure; there must be parity between the first and second harmonic states or the flux capacitor will melt. inconsistencies between the harmonic states will do this.
J4B;
ecm mix up is still bugging me. its too bad there aren't multiple state ecm's able to adapt to whatever the available octane might be.
dannybuell |
Justa4banger
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 04:08 pm: |
|
Dannybuell, i don't believe a ECM mix up occured.
What i need to get is one of these
http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_ info&cPath=1&products_id=3
that would fix any exhaust issues..
In fact this retailer has a bunch of go fast Goodies.. check it out.
http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=index |
Highscore
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 04:10 pm: |
|
Putting the dyno´s IAT-sensor into the hot engine compartment is a cheap trick to sweeten the dyno-numbers, to make the HP visible on the graph everybody is waiting for. No serious tuner will do this, because it is a fake.
A thermal engine is simply weak when there is only hot air available for it. The lower density of hot air means a less dense charge at the engine´s intake causing scarifying its performance by two separate effects:
1.) Hot air is "thinner" and covers less oxygen than cooler air. This limits also it ability to burn fuel. The correction by the ECM reflects this fact by reducing its fuel supply according its internal correction map. The effect is nevertheless: less fuel - less combustion heat - less power.
For this reason an engine looses approx. 1% power for each increase of 10° of its intake charge temperature.
The correction of a dyno for IAT compensates this loss using (pretty) the same factor as the ECM for its fuel adjustment.
2.) But less dense charge effects negatively performance by another mechanism. This density effect also directly, by changing the local sonic speed, the resonances and wave pattern inside of the engine´s intake system.
This explains why some engines suffer dramatic losses,when operated with hot air,especially in some areas of its working range.
And it looks like as the Helicon engine is prone for this second phenomenon.It looses not only peak power, when operated with hit air, but additionally disproportionately - more than the standard dyno-correction for IAT may compensate - torque.
After assembly Rotax,testes each Helicon-engine at a dyno for performance. Therefore really "bad" engines should not be around and 130 WHP on a Dynojet should be the bare minimum for this engine in stock condition.
If someone sees less power something is wrong with the test conditions of dyno testing. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 04:19 pm: |
|
There are nearly 100 customers who have purchased 1125R Race ECM's from EBR, and other than this one instance, no one is having problems. In fact we have received multiple e-mails lauding the performance, both on the track and on the dyno. I think the posts by certain people here really speak loudly to their desire to make EBR look bad, and that is a real disappointment to us. |
Justa4banger
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 04:21 pm: |
|
Well if 130whp is the norm , than in stock configuration my bike is pretty close. 126.XX at 2000 ft elevation plus Vegas is know for its "thin" air.
i was happy with my baseline numbers, they seem to be in par with other bikes around the usa on various dyno's. |
Justa4banger
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 04:44 pm: |
|
Anonymous,
I just want my bike to run well like others are claiming...thats all i ever wanted.
I love my buell, i have always liked Buells and i surely did not set out on a rampage to make EBR or Buell look bad.
I did how ever test off the shelf items and recieved poor results. that upset me extremely and led to my initial out burst.
Now my goal is to make it right. |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 04:44 pm: |
|
Anonymous
Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 04:19 pm:
"I think the posts by certain people here really speak loudly to their desire to make EBR look bad, and that is a real disappointment to us."
Would that be the Dyno operators?
We all want EB to succeed at racing and selling bikes. I want the EBR Race module so bad I can taste it.
Put an EBR tag on it I will buy it. I remember what the race module did for my 96s1 and it lasted for over 10 years! I expect the same for my CR.
just a few things in the way, getting the bikes suspension setup and break-in miles. After that I want an exhaust w/ EBR ECM Setup.
dannybuell |
Xelerator
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 05:27 pm: |
|
Highscore, nice dissertation but again, I said airbox intake, that's the part where the engine's air goes thru. 
"...into the hot engine compartment is a cheap trick to sweeten the dyno-numbers"
(Message edited by Xelerator on February 15, 2010) |
Mountainstorm
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 06:33 pm: |
|
Anonymous
Are you taking issue with Justa4Banger's posted information. Despite taking a bashing from half the forum he's still here and he's not instigating any riots. In fact he's trying to figure it out.
If there are customers with EBR Race ECMs calibrated for pump gas, K&N, Slip on that have provided you with Dyno Runs why not post those up instead of posting baseless innuendos?
I'm just as drunk on Buellaid as most enthusiasts but I'm not going to kill the messenger just because I don't like the message.
He posted valuable info. Are you saying the info is false or misleading?
Let's keep this honest. I love my Buells and I admire EBR and am a huge supporter of the effort. If you are affliated with EBR state that clearly so we know who's talking. If not then you're not adding anything useful to the discussion...just stirring the pot like so many others. |
Jules
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 06:39 pm: |
|
just stirring the pot like so many others.
Which is, it has to be said exactly what popped into my head when I read your post...
Things were said in the heat of the moment but we're all grown ups on here so surely we can just put any misunderstandings behind us and move forward... |
Mountainstorm
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 07:06 pm: |
|
It's the internet. Weeding information from disinformation is hard enough. If there are other Dyno runs of a Pump gas ECM let's see them. Otherwise what have we learned?
(Message edited by Mountainstorm on February 15, 2010) |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 08:23 pm: |
|
Mountainstorm;
There is every reason to think that Anonymous is blowing hot air. I had the same thought, lets see the dyno sheets!
If there are so many positive dyno posts why of all the groups in the world would we be out in the dark on this one?
EBR takes all with good numbers.
dannybuell |
Mountainstorm
| | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 10:07 pm: |
|
Well count me as one of the satisfied "100" because as far as I can tell the EBR product is doing exactly what I want it to do. But only a Dyno run will show me the A/F ratio. Bottom line is I want my bike to last many years, just like my other Buells. I am not that concerned about some RWHP figure, my bike makes over 130 on the Dynojet stock. In my opinion the EPA mandated calibration sucks, so I want a better calibration. And I think I got that. |
