| Author | Message | ||
     Slypiranna |
Multiple o2 sensor errors...hmmm, wonder what else could cause that, besides o2 sensors? One wire and one ground for each, very little to check. Seems worth a call above whomever's head told you there isn't an in between in failures. | ||
| Xb9 |
I don't agree with that good or bad statement, as they will get slower transitions with time as they wear out. They do not last forever, especially when exposed to contaminants or used outside the O2 sensor manufacturer's specified temperature parameters. One thing you could check is start the bike in diag mode and watch the O2 voltage transitions while it is idling and running. Although the refresh on the dash is very slow thereby not a true picture of the transitions, the voltage should be constantly moving high and low of .49 volts (once warmed up on a normally operating system) ECMSpy will give you the best look at this function. If the voltage is not moving, or staying on one side of .49 volts, it's an indication something is not right. Lower than .49v is lean, Higher than .49v is rich. Keep in mind if the O2 sensor is indicating a rich condition, the ECM will adjust leaner and vice versa. If you do some research on O2 sensors, there are manufacturer's specified max temperature limit (Delta T) on what these devices should be exposed to, and the device should be placed in a position on the exhaust system where the EGT does not exceed this delta T. (I can't remember what the temp limit is) My guess why the '09 O2 sensor location is further downstream. | ||
| Xb9 |
Permissible maximum exhaust gas temperature at sensor element: + 800º C (1472ºF) Sustained exhaust gas temperature: + 150…+ 600º C (1112ºF) Operating temperature of the sensor housing hexagon: < + 500º C (932ºF) (Message edited by xb9 on December 18, 2008) | ||
| Slypiranna |
Wait a minute...this might be a quick test that might narrow down a few; Assuming your AFV's aren't way off, simply disconnect your o2's from the harness. This will force OL feeding off of base maps only. Just follow the little black wire on each O2 to disconnect and test. One is right above the intake snorkel on the front, the other is under the seat. P.s...Smokin' info Xb9! No pun intended! | ||
| Xb9 |
So i guess the question is: How hot is it getting? At what temp will stainless steel glow red? Doesn't really matter what the emitter is stainless steel, cast iron, tungsten in your light bulb, the temps are about the same for a given color. Generally accepted colors/temps are: C F Color 400 752 Red heat, visible in the dark 474 885 Red heat, visible in the twilight 525 975 Red heat, visible in the daylight 581 1077 Red heat, visible in the sunlight 700 1292 Dark red 800 1472 Dull cherry-red 900 1652 Cherry-red 1000 1832 Bright cherry-red 1100 2012 Orange-red (Message edited by xb9 on December 18, 2008) | ||
| Slypiranna |
Any of YOU's w/the thread starter's wonders done anything yet? | ||
| Ponti1 |
Hmmm...Does asking the dealer to look into it count? I'm not even sure if mine exhibits this condition yet, but want to know what do do if it does. I'll be trying to get it fired up and checked in the next few days. If I see red, I want to know dealer recommendation. | ||
| Zac4mac |
I did let Loretta warm up in the garage until the rear pipe started glowing. Then I put a small(14") box fan blowing on the side. The glow went away rapidly - less than a minute. I'm not worried, I believe it's a combination of lean intake and too advanced timing for idle. In my case, the 8' of aluminum downspout taking exhaust out the garage door may contribute also. After I get a new front tire, I will get Dave's software and start playing. First changes will be to idle map to address my suspicions. Zack | ||
| Slypiranna |
The idle timing isn't too advanced. It is 16' at 1000, 12' 1200rpm, 12' at 1850 and then back up to 15' 2200rpm. Not until 3000 and higher do we see any real "lead" in the timing maps. It would be nice to know any corrections to timing that might be thrown in the mix tho...There ARE! Gotta love Dave's program! (Message edited by slypiranna on December 20, 2008) | ||
| Chevycummins |
Front exhaust manifold at idle just before the cooling fan comes on.  Does that look normal? | ||
| Ponti1 |
Wow...Now, I'm no expert, but that looks HOT! What is the air temp where it's parked idling? If this was right before fans kicked on, it was at CT of high 160s, right? My fan kicks on at 171. | ||
| Chevycummins |
It was 21 degrees out when I took the picture. It took about 5 minutes of idle time to get it that hot. After the fans turn on the pipe cools down from the air blowing on them. Very hot is my expert opinion. | ||
| Buellborn |
Chevycummins Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2008 - 10:32 pm: ....... Very hot is my expert opinion. I'm going out on a limb here and seconding your opinion.  | ||
| Diablo1 |
I'm guessing 1350F for that glowing exhaust manifold, and I'm a pretty good guesser when it comes to hot metal. | ||
| Xb9 |
  | ||
| Steeleagle |
For giggles I started mine up this morning, garage temp is about 29F. The headers took an immediate glow and eventually looked exactly like Chevycummins' pix. When the fan kicked on, the glow pretty much disappeared except around the collector. All at idle, bone stock, FYI my AFVs are at 105 F/R. | ||
| Xbswede |
Wow! Just amazing. Now I will have to check mine. | ||
| Slaughter |
Hey - I hate to break it to you but what you have in the pictures is an ENGINE EXHAUST. Further, I believe the images are taken of that same exhaust with out ANY air flowing around it to cool it. Flame front temperatures in combustion chamber at ignition are about 3500 (F) if I recall. They exit about 1600 (F) They're cooled rapidly in the exhaust stroke as pressure drops but it's still gonna be hot when exhaust hits the pipes. I'd suggest not running the engine without air flowing over it. Besides, it's just more interesting to ride the motorcycle WITH air flowing around it. | ||
| Buellborn |
THat makes sense Slaughter but makes me wonder why most bikes don't show it. why does this one? | ||
| Doerman |
Many bikes have double wall headers | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
and plastic fairings EVERYWHERE!!! lol... | ||
| Slypiranna |
This motorcycle doesn't have double wall primaries and these glowing pics are not that of what should be considered, normal...no matter the motorcycle. Stock and/or high performance & racing gasoline turbo engines don't glow @ idle/no load...unless there is something off. Interesting to read all the posts that attempt to explain it ok, tho. Hopefully, this thread will live long enough to read proven/factual reasons why. Reminds me of what we all went through earlier this year when herky jerky was "normal", unfounded but "defended"...mm | ||
| Zac4mac |
jerky jerky was never OK in my book. I told y'all over and over how smooth Loretta ran once her AFVs set. Your race engines have air circulating with either electric fans or one run by belts. As soon as I got some Airflow on mine it quit glowing. Z | ||
| Dentguy |
Stock and/or high performance & racing gasoline turbo engines don't glow @ idle/no load...unless there is something off. Interesting to read all the posts that attempt to explain it ok, tho. Interesting to read the posts that say it is a problem also. If you think it's a problem, what's the problem? If there is "something off", then a lot of Buells on here have a problem. About ten people on this thread have said they have seen it and plenty in the past with XBs. If YOU KNOW there is "something off" please tell Buell and enlighten everyone here what it is so it can be fixed. If anyone on here has had a problem with their Buell because their headers were glowing a little at idle, in the dark, please explain your problem. All this speculation that it is a problem is getting silly. | ||
| Skylerxb12r |
+1 Dentguy | ||
| Slypiranna |
I respect your opinion Dentguy but that doesn't explain the condition and/or why it exists. Simple logic within each ear should be the reason for wonder as to the temps related and how they effect upper end internals. I do not have the answers that you ask. If I did, there wouldn't be a reason to continue questioning this thread's content. Non of this is personal or meant to send panic within an owner group. I assume that we all are adults and can communicate/share questions/comments and answers in a constructive and argumentative way in order to understand one and other...AND this particular thread's condition? Perhaps that subject needs another looksee. Too much defense, how bout a little more open input as to the FACTS, hows and whys relevant? Personally, I don't spend my time here on BadWeb to be popular, any one member's best friend, agreed with or disagreed with for any reason or to gain or receive any one thing other than FACTUAL information relevant to MY/YOURS/OURS ownership experience...with the mere hope of in fact, benefiting BUELL in the process. What a concept. Or simply let this thread die and forget about it. | ||
| Buellborn |
Good post Slypiranna's . I wish anomalies were not just brushed aside. There are a lot more people out there that may buy Buell products when confidence is raised, some of the defensive positions come off as silly as they get handled one by one through design improvements and reals and flashes all for stuff that is normal? | ||
| Black |
Hi Guys! As my post has now disappeared into the archive, I thought I might reiterate a couple of things I said in case somebody missed the post. We were originally looking at a new bike, cold, just started (five or so minutes) that had glowing red headers. I brought those conditions to a group of mechanics (three Buell/HD) an engineer (author on motorcycle repair) and they gave me the following unanimous consensus: 1. Lean condition. 2. Cause of condition either machine does not have all the flashes (the earlier machines were mapped lean) OR an issue with the sensor suite. There are ten sensors. They are: 1.Bank angle, 2. Barometric pressure, 3. fuel pressure, 4. Intake air temp, 5. Manifold absolute pressure, 6. front O2, 7. rear O2, 8. throttle position, 9. side stand, 10. crank shaft position sensor, 11. vehicle speed sensor, and 12. coolant temp sensor. Like I said, ten sensors! I think if you are running hot, immediately after starting, you should drop by your dealer for a diagnostic. I'm just hoping to save you some time troubleshooting. It could be a combination of conditions induced by bad sensors. Bottom line is that my techs think that getting that hot that fast is not normal, and sensors do fail. Fortunately, all of these bikes are under warranty. Take 'em in. I am looking forward to some feedback reports after these machines go into the dealerships. Hey, hope all of you have a great holiday season! | ||
| Slypiranna |
Black, Who informed you that any particular flash of 08 was "leaner" or "richer" than any other? | ||
| Black |
Sorry if I was unclear or misleading. It wasn't the flash. The tech said that, as he remembered, one of the first flashes corrected a lean condition. He could be remembering incorrectly. I think his point was that all the bikes should have all the flashes. Come to think of it, without that troubleshooting will be a lot more difficult. I hope I answered your question. |
