| Author | Message | ||
     Jdugger |
When I took my bike in, as I reported earlier, I had the entire service department stinkin' of fuel. It was a warm (80F) day and I got to sit in traffic a bit. Well, since that day, it's been in the 50s and 60s, and the dealer, despite putting about 125 miles on the bike, has not been able to reproduce the fuel smell problem. So, the 1125r is on her way home from the dealership, and when it gets hot again and she starts to smell, I'll take her back. Somewhere in here is a good joke about a fine lookin' girl smelling after you get her hot and ride her hard. Too bad the smell is gasoline and not burnt "rubber". | ||
| Bigblock |
So, I don't know if this will help anyone, but I picked my bike up yesterday afternoon and here's the story... So I just got my bike back today after almost 3 weeks in the shop. It got the venting system replaced, consisting of the tank vent, and the charcoal canister. My bike started out having a hard start problem, a fuel smell, and it had a big hesitation a couple times under brisk but not heavy acceleration where it felt like it died, but then came back up just before I soiled myself( once passing a car(safe and easy pass) and another time merging onto the freeway) I brought it right in, was told probably bad fuel. Then, it started running a bit funny, a bit down on power and throttle response a little soggy. Also lost about 4 mpg. Brought it home and idled her for the oil level check, shut her down let her sit for a minute(till the fans stopped) then thought I would check my fuel level ( also strong fuel smell) Undid the cap, and it was quite pressurized, it popped up into my hand, and a wave of hot fuel vapor hit me in the face. I look down in the tank, and it is bubbling like mad, the fuel is only about 3 inches down, and I can see it bubbling furiously, and it sounds like a tea kettle on full boil. It has been sitting for a few minutes now, and is stilll bubbling like mad, so I call the dealer, get my service manager on the phone(who cant believe it) and stick the phone on speaker down into the filler neck so he can hear it. He believed me then! It has been well over 5 minutes now, and it is still bubbling away like mad. I put my fingers down into the filler neck, and the fumes coing up are quite warm. Not scorch your hand hot, but pretty hot. Needles to say, the dealer sent out a truck for my bike the next morning. He was able to duplicate the symptoms I was having. So, the question is, what the heck happened? At the time, the bike's frame felt pretty hot, not real uncomfortable, but hotter than I would think it should be. And, there was definitely a venting issue, there was pressure in the tank. Measurements taken of the frame down by the exhaust were showing 140 degrees, and I think 104 to 108 on the upper areas of the frame. This is while they were duplicating the bubbling or boiling condition. My dealer has been working with Buell techs and engineers in an effort to find the cause of these problems and fix the issues. He tells me the guys at Buell are way more familiar with him than they would like to be!(Jokingly?) At this point, with the new venting system it appears to have solved the problems. OF course, I rode only 40 miles today taking the long way home, and it was not very hot, lower 60's to upper 50's on the way home. I did get to run her up pretty good a couple times, but didn't beat her too hard on the way home. Temp stayed normal, frame felt warm but not hot at all, seems much improved. Put hand on frame right down by the "trouble spot" and was able to hold it there without discomfort. No hot hard start issue at all, but only tried twice. Power and throttle response seem normal again. No fuel smell. So what really happened? We are not real sure, we thought for sure a fuel boiling issue was happening, and things were pretty darn hot in there. I have been repeatedly assured that this is in no way, and never was, an actual safety issue, as the bike would be way to hot to sit on, and would quit running way before it ever got hot enough- to become unsafe, as in ignite, or whatever. Apparently, according to Buell, the tank pressure caused by the faulty vent causes the frame and fuel temperature to go way up, and also somehow pressurizes the fuel and causing it to bubble. So, the claim is not actual boiling of the fuel, but pressurization and aeration, aggravated by excessive heat build-up, I guess some sort of vicious circle. Myself, personally, that rear exhaust tube passes awful close to the frame and fuel pump down there on the right side, and I suspect this may make things a bit hotter than they could be down there. Now, my dealer tells me they are still working on this with BUell, and that there may be an additional issue with the oxygenated CA winter gasoline aggravating this issue that happened with my bike. So, I suppose there will be further testing done here, I hope I am not their guinea pig! My guy at the dealer was saying something about possible wrapping of the pipe or additional heat shielding, I guess I am riding it for now and we'll see what happens, I can say that as of today, SO FAR SO GOOD! It sure is nice to get my baby back, I sure did miss her so... | ||
| Doerman |
For whatever it is worth, I was riding around in 80 degree temps yesterday. The bike behaved like it should the AT gets really high when there's little ventilation across intake where the pickup sensor is. The CT stayed between 195 and 210, which is par for the course in riding like that (I think). I did have the pressurized tank issue a long time ago and it triggered the check engine light. When I got home I discovered that the hose from the tank vent going back to the charcoal cannister (CA stuff) was pinched (when you put the seat back on). I re-routed the vent hose to prevent pinching and have not had tank pressurization or other troublesome symptoms since (fuel odor or otherwise). That whole thing was about 2,000 miles ago. Strange thing about the tank vent hose between the front of the tank to the cannister. It seems to be just a bit short. You have to stretch it in the airbox cover groove to make it reach back to the cannister.  During that "check engine" event I had two codes show up. 1) front O2 sensor 2) Fuel pressure The Fuel pressure is understandable since the tank pressure was a considerable amount above atmospheric. The dealer decided to replace the O2 sensor since it had been triggered. I don't know if it is a coincidence or not, but there has been no issues with difficult warm starts since the sensor was replaced. | ||
| Hwyranger |
I rode 150 miles yesterday in 85-90 degree temps. The ct started going up to 190-195 when I was slow and go splitting lanes. However, once I got back in the open, the temps went right back down 185-190. I noticed my tank started getting warm (the check engine light came on intermittently, but no problems). About 1 1/2 hours after I got home, the wife got home and said the garage smelled like gas. I checked, no odor, but the tank was still REALLY hot. The engine, pipes, and exhaust had all cooled down. I didn't smell any gas, but the garage door had been open for approx. 5 mins before I went out there. I checked my fuel tank (I filled it just before getting home 1 mile away), and noticed the fuel level had risen to just over the fill line. When I filled the tank, I left it 1/2 inch below the fill line. Would this be another tank venting problem, or is this normal. I haven't had my tank get that hot on me before, especially for that long after a ride. BTW, the O2 sensor code did come up, but that's the only one. | ||
| Jos51700 |
The fuel level will rise quite a bit as the fuel comes from the nice, cool ground tank where it's good n' dense, and goes into your nice, warm tank where it expands (Obviously, to the point of having bubbles form). What's funny is, capping the vent and thereby increasing the internal pressure should reduce the tendency to boil. Radiator cap, anyone? I know the XBRR stayed very hot to the touch for several hours after the last laps at the track, and was still warm at 6am the next morning after a 55 degree night. | ||
| No_rice |
i was also thinking the fact that it was pressurized should have reduced its tendancy to boil | ||
| Spatten1 |
The boiling probably started after opening the filler cap and lowering the pressure, while the heat remained constant. If there is excessive heat, it might still cause aggressive venting even if pressurized to a point, thus the smell. Like the radiator cap analogy above, if it is getting high pressure it probably relieves by venting at some point. | ||
| Court |
Lowering the pressure will make something boil quite quickly. If you want to see an example . . . go push the button on a can of shaving cream and watch it boil (they call it "foaming" in the shaving cream world) as it goes from the high pressure in the can to the familiar world of 14.7 psi. | ||
| Davegess |
Open a radiator cap on an overheating car. Instant boiling, geyser is more like it. liquids have a much higher boiling point under pressure, when the pressure is removed they boil instantly. | ||
| Jos51700 |
Good point! I didn't think about how merely modifying the bike so one could observe the fuel would result in a rapid pressure drop thus leading to boiling. (I knew you guys are sharper than me.) | ||
| Jpfive |
My frame is not getting any warmer than what I was used to with my XB, and I have had no excessive fuel odor. There would have to be a serious anomaly of some kind, IMO, for heat to build up to such an extent on one bike, and not on another. I wonder if the problem could be an exhaust leak in the area of the rear cylinder, either through a material fault of some kind, or just a faulty connection at the exhaust port. Jack | ||
| Bobup |
All this talk of pressure makes me think back to when I put a large capacity tank on my Jeep Cherokee. 1) fuel pump is inside of fuel tank 2) fuel pump PUSHES fuel to the carb or injectors 3) restrictive nozzle was at the return tube on the tank (at least on my tank it was) 4) all of this makes for a pressurized fuel line NOT a pressurized tank 5) the non-vented gas caps (on cars) are for keeping vapors from escaping to atmosphere to comply with EPA specs 6) the XB's and the 1125s have a vented system (in my opinion) otherwise EVERY TIME you open the tank the cap would "POP" open...and they don't, do they  just some food for thought | ||
| Jos51700 |
Venting allows for air to replace fuel as it's consumed. Fuel vents that are plugged create a lean or no-fuel condition due to the vacuum build up within the tank. I've always wondered how a non vented tank system worked, until a friend explained that they use a check valve, so air goes in, but fumes don't come out. In internal return on the fuel system does not generate pressure within the tank. For example, 60 PSI goes out from the pump, anything over 60 PSI is bled off (or, "returned"), anywhere from 1 to 30 PSI, but it's less pressure being bled off than the what the pump is generating while pumping. The pump generates no more "pull" than it does "push", or vice versa, in other words. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Fuel vents that are plugged create a lean or no-fuel condition due to the vacuum build up within the tank. Classic troubleshooting! | ||
| Blake |
Venting also allows for fumes to escape as heating causes pressure to build inside the fuel tank, hence the charcoal canisters required in California. | ||
| Jpfive |
Another thought occurred to me. Where are the cats on the Cali bikes? I have read somewhere that they are located in the exhaust can. On my VFR, they were upstream of the cans. If that is the case on the 1125 - well that would be a lot of heat in the vicinity of the frame. Jack | ||
| Spatten1 |
Jack, great question. I know that the 2-way cats on some Kawi's used a Pre-cat, which was an upstream cat, to get the gases hotter so the primary cat in the muffler was more effective. | ||
| Bobup |
pics of CA bikes show the front section of the muffler to be "unpainted" like the main body. this could be where it is....purely speculation on my part | ||
| Unibear12r |
The cats are definitely in the muffler. A few were shipped with the wrong ones and a bunch of guys had to take back their bikes to get them replaced. I think I remember seeing a diagram showing them in that unpainted part of the Cali muffler at the collector. My apologies to those who first reported this as I posted that I thought it to be sensationalism and wild speculation. I humbly eat my words. As pointed out above the pump should not be the problem and IMHO a blocked vent would only make the problem worse not cause it. Most posters state that they notice it after they park. Also many posters state that they were going slow speeds or stuck in traffic before the incident. And so do many of the fuel pressure trouble code posts. The AT sensor is, more often than not, very inaccurate at speeds below 40mph. Is that due to not enough air flow? It is at the front of the air stream through the fuel frame isn't it? When the 1125 was introduced (in the hot season) it cooked the riders feet with the coolant air being drafted out of the fuel frame and on to the riders feet by a low pressure area there. Now only the low pressure area behind the bike drafts that air through the fuel frame. The XBs are no slouch at dumping heat into the area at the fuel tank and might be even putting out more than the 1125. So what's the difference? I think it's the fan, it not only cools the heads on the XB but also the fuel frame at slow speeds and after shutdown until the temps drop. And on some 1125s, if the VR is marginal, the high temps might be effecting that too. I know Zack did a test of such but I believe he had the seat off and therefore the VR would not be in the same environment. Of course this only a simi-educated guess and I could be way off from what's really going on. (Message edited by unibear12r on March 02, 2008) | ||
| Donutclub |
I dropped my bike off earlier this week at the Dealer (AD Farrows in Columbus, Ohio) for the "fuel smell" and let them know that they should call the Buell Technical crew for details. I talked to the Dealer today and they said it was done and ready to be picked up. They were not able to duplicate the fuel smell problem. They ran the bike on the dyno for about 20 miles and didn't smell anything after letting it cool down. They also said that they took the vent out of the tank and checked the o-rings and that everything looked ok. Having not seen what they are talking about, I really don't know what they checked. They proceeded to inform me that I'll have to pay for an hour of labor time for the trouble shooting ($82.00)and that doing wheelies or stoppies would cause the vent to discharge gasoline. I'm not happy about the hour labor charge, but I'm willing to pay it if need be. However, the wheelie and stoppie comment really burns me up. I guess it's a sportbike so they assume that I'm doing wheelies and stoppies everywhere. That's total horse pucky. I called Buell Customer Service and explained my situation looking for some help. They said they would call the Dealer and sort things out and give me a call tomorrow. In the meantime, I called the Dealer back to let them know to expect a phone call from Buell. The Dealer said they just got off the phone with Buell about the issue (wow, the Buell Customer Service is fast). According to the Dealer, Buell agreed with their trouble shooting and they recommended to wait to see if it happens again. I'm not sure how this is going to play out, but I'm very certain that I'll be traveling an hour away to visit another Dealer to service my bike when/if the fuel smell presents itself again. The bike smells really strong after I ride it about 25 "highway" miles. The first time I rode it, my wife complained that it was stinking up our house. At the time I figured it was because it was new. The last time I rode it, it had about a half of a tank of gas (or less) and it smelled extremely bad. I opened the garage manually for fear of a spark. | ||
| Spatten1 |
That sucks. | ||
| Tsrf900r |
Not having much luck myself. My dealer has NO CLUE as to what is wrong. They didn't even know how to check for fault codes until I told them. They still have the bike,it's been there since last Tuesday, with no answers. I guess they figure if it sits there long enough it will fix itself. | ||
| Tsrf900r |
Got the bike back. Haven't taken it for a long ride yet, but no fuel smell after a 5 mile ride. BUT I have the following error codes. U0001 P0087 P0193 The throttle is also surging all over the place from 2000 rpm-5000 rpm... Called the dealer, they didn't check the error codes, because they didn't know how to check  . Anyways, the dealer is going to call Buell on Tuesday and find out what the error codes mean. Man if I would have know about all this going in... I wouldn't be on a Buell thats for sure... | ||
| No_rice |
thats just a lazy service department, they didnt even bother to make a call to find out how to check the codes while the bike was there? who sends a bike home knowing they havent even looked at half the problems. i dont know what the codes mean either, but a little time with the draft copy of the service manual and a phone call to buell im sure i could figure it out instead of just sending our customers bike home that way. (Message edited by no_rice on March 08, 2008) | ||
| Zac4mac |
I had those same error codes early on. Pretty sure they're related to flooding the engine and running the battery down. I remember 193, 087 I think is from trying to start before the fuel rail pressure is up. Also pretty sure you get U0001 when the voltage drops below communications' threshold. Good luck, I'd keep an eye on your dealership. Maybe a call or two to Buell CS and ask them to get more involved with the dealership's "troubleshooting". Zack | ||
| Bearly |
Where's Bernoulli when you need him? | ||
| Unibear12r |
+1 Zack The tech who worked on my bike had no problems getting the help he needed from Buell by phone and fax the next day! I'd say your dealer is not doing right by you Tsr. (Message edited by unibear12r on March 08, 2008) | ||
| Tsrf900r |
Just went for a longer ride... Fuel smell still there. At least the dealer didn't lie, they straight up told me they didn't fix anything. I'm scared to take it back, last time it sat there for 2 weeks and they did absolutely nothing. Not sure what my options are at this point, brand new bike that's un-ridable, with a dealer that cannot fix it... Live and learn.... | ||
| Jos51700 |
Can you find a new dealer? I would if possible. | ||
| Blake |
Who is your dealer? You don't list them in your profile and you haven't said. Please advise. |
