| Author | Message | ||
     Rfischer |
As a great American once said, "Never argue with an idiot; they merely drag you down to their level and then defeat you with experience." Carry on Rocket. You're doing a fine job.  | ||
| Bearly |
Shoot I get less spam than this on my email account. Rfischer : Well put. (Message edited by bearly on January 21, 2008) | ||
| Rocketman |
Carry on Rocket. You're doing a fine job. Fine job of what exactly? You're quick to point out my theory is bullshit. You doubt my intelligence as a mechanic. And you call me an idiot. Where's your 1125 180rwhp theory? Show some balls and put your words down so we can scrutinise your engine math, race prep, intelligence, and humanity skills. Thought not. You've got nothing. Go ride. Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
"when clearly the 1098R with race kit can't" "can't" or just "doesn't as delivered"? I suspect it's the latter. Therefor (and based off of my suspicion stated in the previous sentence)... How can one possibly use the power output of the duck L-Twin in it's race kitted form as a benchmark to assume that the Helicon "can't" achieve that number? Maybe it can't. Maybe it can. I don't exactly have an opinion that I would bet money on but I see your logic as being a bit disconnected. You're not connecting the dots well. Either do so or admit that maybe the Helicon can get there. If you can't do so then you're just bloviating. | ||
| Rocketman |
You're not connecting the dots well Why the f*ck would Ducati state their official figure of 186BHP at the crank with race kit fitted if it were more? I have never said the 1098R with race kit couldn't achieve more HP. Just that AS IS, with race kit, NOTHING MORE, that is all Ducati say it will give. And that is a mighty distant target for any bike to get to, never mind an 1125. NOW JUST TO BE CLEAR, ROCKET NEVER SAID A 1098R COULD NOT BETTER 186 CRANKSHAFT HP. ROCKET SAID DUCATI QUOTE 186HP AT THE CRANKSHAFT FOR THEIR 1098 WITH RACE KIT FITTED. How can one possibly use the power output of the duck L-Twin in it's race kitted form as a benchmark to assume that the Helicon "can't" achieve that number? Because without race kit fitted Ducati are quoting 180 crankshaft HP. And I didn't use it as a benchmark either. I keep stating this is my theory, which would be based on my expert knowledge and unblinkered towards Buell (or the 1098/S/R) opinion. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Anytime soon we will have the definitive answer as our resident Buell racer, Robin Fischer, is going to chime in and give us his enthralling performance upgrade for the 1125 to reach 186HP at the crank. At which time I will bow down in awe of his knowledge of ball bearing friction co-efficients and heat dissipation algorithm's, at which time I shall slip quietly into the night like I'd never been here before  Rocket | ||
| Court |
You're babbling. | ||
| Rocketman |
Really? I thought I was having an interesting conversation about HP until some took it upon themselves to make out my comments were a put down of the 1125. Some folks eh. You wouldn't be one of them would you Court? Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
I suspect you were pointing at both of us Court  ... You're probably right. I know you haven't stated that the duck can't do more Rocket (now you're seeing my point though... please keep looking). You have stated though that the Duck makes "X" amount of power so it's not possible for the 1125 to. That's the leap of logic that I'm referring to. It assumes that it's not possible that the engineers that put the Helicon together may have possibly gotten it right. "Just that AS IS, with race kit, NOTHING MORE, that is all Ducati say it will give. And that is a mighty distant target for any bike to get to, never mind an 1125. " I agree with this. The last part I believe typifies your mindset WRT Buell (because I read it as "especially the 1125"). If I'm wrong about the last part and you're just saying "including the 1125" then disregard that part. This however... I don't see the logic in... "The 1198cc 1098R with race kit, Ducati claim 186HP . I don't see how Ducati could have been, and I quote, "making close to or over 200 HP" from their 999R. Not to take anything away from the 1125 success story so far, I think this proves an 1125 is not going to yield 180HP at the crankshaft, let alone the rear wheel. " And in... "Airwaves Ducati, the only team who ran Ducatis in 2007 BSB, had 12 F0-7 999R engines, at a cost of £40,000 each. To make their estimated 185 - 190 HP, they needed rebuilding every 750km. The second rebuild at 1500km included crankcase replacement. Each engine could only be rebuilt 3 times before being scrapped completely. Each rebuild took 2 1/2 days from start to finish. Airwaves engine bill, including maintenance for the full season cost £1,000,000 Yep, I can see the 1125 making 180rwhp anytime real soon Blake. I'd wager there's more chance of the ensuing argument over such having my account suspended (again) (and again) (and again), lol. " In both of those (the second of which was the post right before I jumped in here) you seem to be saying "The Duck is here... So the Buell can't do it." My first post in this thread was merely asking for proof of THAT apparent assumption. Nothing more really. I just want to know why you figure that only the engineers at Ducati are capable of making that power with that displacement. It doesn't make any sense to me unless you fail to connect a dot or two for us (like the one between Ducati Corse engineers and God) AND we're just ok with not following the line to see where the gap is. Well there's where I see the gap. Can you just explain to me why I think there's a missing link there and you don't? Why can't the Helicon make the power levels we're discussing? Which parts break? Where's the weakness? I'm not saying there isn't one. I'm just trying to figure out how you know there's one. | ||
| M1combat |
For the record... I don't see what you've said so far as exactly a put down of the 1125. I just think you seem to like Ducati quite a bit. I'm ok with that. I do too. Where DO you think the Helicon can get to with the same racetrack reliability as the 1098R with race kit? (Message edited by m1combat on January 21, 2008) | ||
| 86129squids |
This is bench racing at its finest. The 1125R is an entirely new beast. RIDE the damn bike (Preferably well broken in) and envision the next mutation. And the next. DOG WILL HUNT. HUNT DUCS DAT IZZZZZZ!!! In my humble opinion. I look forward to some real racing, guys. The seat of my pants anticipates it. The hair on my neck knows it. Wait and watch. | ||
| Rocketman |
I don't have the proof because I can't be bothered to spend a lot of time working on the math when the logic is staring me in the face. If the logic is not doing it for you, then fine. I'm happy to conceded somewhere somebody could get 200HP at the crankshaft of the 1125. But there's someone somewhere who's gonna get 225 out of the 1098R. Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
LOL. Thank you Sean. | ||
| Ponti1 |
This is funny...Please, keep it up. | ||
| No_rice |
buy the biggest baddest thing on the planet, and by the next day it wont be anymore. so you get 200 out of an 1125, then you get 225 out of a 1098 then you get 250 out of a vespa... and on and on and on. no one person, place, or thing can be top dog forever. by the time this debate is done it will be irrelevent(sp?) because the next evolution in whatever will have just topped them both | ||
| Bebop |
It's that line of thinking that lead to this...  | ||
| Ccryder |
No_Rice, Bebop: You are 110% correct. You are just feeding Rocket more ammo at every turn. Yes it is bench racing/ tire kicking at it's best. Sean: I would have thought you would be full of Tootsie-rolls by now, I thought I saw your eyes turning brown. Time2Recover Neil S. | ||
| Darkice19 |
I still think Rocketlady is jealous of the 1125r. | ||
| Rocketman |
It's that line of thinking that lead to this... Last time I looked that thing wasn't normally aspirated, lol! You are just feeding Rocket more ammo at every turn. Neil, I find it rather unfortunate you say that in this thread. Yes of course I threw out a lot of those tootsie roll things in other threads, with good reason I might add, and I received plenty in return. This thread though, I have tried to keep civility in it, and the way I'm reading it is two fold where your comments are concerned. First there are some reading that can only see my comments as a put down of the 1125, which they are not. And second, there are those making comments like your own, which only serve to feed the already antagonised. Is it really that difficult to keep this thread on track when trying to point out that the likelihood of an 1125 reaching anywhere near 180rwhp is pretty slim though not impossible? What a pity. I thought the thread was kind of interesting, until the Buell blinkered chimed in and blew it all to hell. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
I still think Rocketlady is jealous of the 1125r. Everyday I look at one of the nicest Buells on the planet. It's sat in my garage. I should be so lucky  Rocket | ||
| Rfischer |
I'll not feed the troll, but for everybody else...Our new Highland 450 MC/SM; very similar in architecture & design to the Helicon, albeit one cylinder. In race trim: 69 rwhp.* do the math. [Hint: 198+ hp @ crank for Helicon] *detuned from testing peak of 71 rwhp; by way of comparison, the world MC championship factory 450 Suzuki [we have one as a test mule] makes 65 rwhp when fresh. Also, we have more development to be done wrt pumping losses. 5% hp gains in modern race engines can be achieved by reducing these losses. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Interesting, never heard of Highland.  And it doesn't look like the Rotax that Aprillia used, is it a new motor from Highland, or is it somebody else's? Z | ||
| Spectrum |
Specs on the Highland V-Twin.. http://www.highland-motorcycles.co.uk/newfiles/mot orcycle-specs.html | ||
| Rfischer |
Highland motors are designed, engineered, and built by Highland Group, AB. 100% proprietary, including the EFI. The V-twin was the first engine-family; the latest is a single, 350/450/510 displacements. | ||
| Court |
Uh . . . excuse me. Those sound like accurate facts. If you are going to start stating true facts you could be ask to sit out of this thread for a day. Don't let it happen again. | ||
| No_rice |
bebop, trust me when i say that thing is WAAAAY faster than both! (unless we are corner carving and then it depends on the corner) we cant seem to find a place around here to top it out for dome reason. it just pulls and pulls and pulls... lol. one of these days we will make it to the salt flats i hope!!!    | ||
| Sheridan_bueller |
Interesting place for an intake! Who would think to put it down there??? sure would like to take one of those for a spin. | ||
| No_rice |
thats the exhaust. another one just like it on the other side. it gets a wee bit warm. | ||
| Ccryder |
Probably the limiting top end factor is the tires. I've also heard that if some cager pisses you off you can just melt his bumper LOL! Time2Recover Neil S. | ||
| Rfischer |
"....start stating true facts you could be asked to sit out of this thread for a day."  |
