| Author | Message | ||
     Mrakz83 |
"I dont care who buys it as long as it continues to make bikes and will branch out and not do just 180hp sportbikes etc Thanks to BB for trying to buy it once, thats awesome. But I dont care if he gets it in December or not" We know that Bruce and/or Erik has/have started another company called EBR, right? So, if Bruce doesn't obtain the old assets, there will still be a new EBR technically in existence. However, I would think that obtaining hose old assets would be a massive help to getting some kind of ball rolling again. Without them, the already difficult uphill battle might well be insurmountable. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems things would be much better off if Bruce wins the next auction. Edit: There's also no garantee that whoever Bruce might lose to would use those assets to pick up where Erik left off. (Message edited by Mrakz83 on November 30, 2015) | ||
| Ace117 |
No one ever said 200 at the wheel. "180hp bikes" I believe it was, RX makes 185 at the crank. Common sense dictates 200hp at the crank, It wasn't stated as 180RWHP so its obvious crank HP was being implied. | ||
| D_adams |
Well then, if it's crank rated numbers we're going to go with, then mine has broken 200 hp. 162 hp stock, 178.8 hp now, assuming a direct linear correlation, would make it possibly 201 hp. There's a guy on facebook claiming a shop has hit 200+ hp at the crank with a stock motor, pipe and ecm, which I'm finding difficult to believe at best. | ||
| Stevel |
Let's just assume the engine was making 200hp at the crank when measuring 180 at the wheel. That's a 20hp difference or just shy of 13KW..........that's a lot of heat and that heat is NOT OBSERVABLE anywhere! I can see maybe 5-8hp loss due to tire slippage, but no more or the tire would self destruct. | ||
| Buelliedan |
on the average dyno there is about 15-20 hp loss from crank to the rear wheel. It is not about heat, it is about the energy required to move the parts in the primary, trans, chain drive, wheel/tire etc. (Message edited by buelliedan on November 30, 2015) | ||
| Bud |
about all delivered here in Europe made 170 on the rear wheel +/- 1 stock | ||
| Buelliedan |
"bout all delivered here in Europe made 170 on the rear wheel +/- 1 " Wonder how they were making 10 hp more than the American bikes? | ||
| Steveford |
Italian horses? | ||
| D_adams |
Well, easyrider's numbers have always been somewhat inflated, maybe it's just the way things are measured over there? | ||
| Hootowl |
"It is not about heat, it is about the energy required to move the parts in the primary, trans, chain drive, wheel/tire etc." Isn't all that lost, ultimately, as heat? | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"We know that Bruce and/or Erik has/have started another company called EBR, right?" wut? Erik Buell created EBR, yes. But BB? No, I dont think he started that company, and from what it sounds like he never had any part of it as the deal didnt go through. Am I right in that?I mean, if he had bought the company/assets then they couldnt have taken it back etc | ||
| 2kx1 |
I think Bruce did say that he had people on his payroll that worked for EBR. | ||
| Snacktoast |
Lots of factors in dyno numbers: Brand of dyno, gear the pull is done in (4th, 5th, 6th), heat of the engine when the pull is done, dyno operator, SAE vs. STD correction factor, etc. Generally speaking, rear wheel horsepower numbers are spoken of in "Dynojet numbers". Not that they are the industry standard for a dyno, but it's probably the most common one out there. Superflow dynos, which are generally preferred by engineers, will show a slightly lower number at the wheel. Heck, even 2 different properly calibrated Dynojet 250i dynos can show different numbers on the same day. I can tell you, with absolute certainty, you aren't gonna take a stock engined 1190RX up to 200 rwhp without significant modifications. Just not happening, I don't care whose dyno it's spun on. I will also say, that when the general public is talking motorcycle engines, it's always rear wheel horsepower numbers. You don't take your motorcycle engine to an engine dyno for tuning. So, for someone to assume that "common sense dictates 200hp at the crank" well, that's not very true and is slightly misleading. The reason that you see a crank rated horsepower number published by manufacturers is that there is a standardized SAE test in the US that is done to determine output as part of the homologation process. | ||
| Mrakz83 |
From Bruce: ...While we are busy finishing up with HERO, the following have also been accomplished: -Incorporated in Wisconsin (Docs filed, tax ID, employer ID, etc. -Set up local bank accounts -Set up employee files... I read "Incorporated in Wisconsin" as them starting another company-- Maybe I misread it? I'm no expert... or novice, for that matter. The point I meant to make, though, was that the assets are probably better off with Bruce than anyone else for the sake of a "going concern". | ||
| Alex |
"about all delivered here in Europe made 170 on the rear wheel +/- 1 stock" Thatīs probably on Your Dynostar fairy tale dyno. On my Superflow a RX made 153rwhp stock. I do have the numbers of 1190RS and 1190RR to compare and the result fits just perfect into the picture. | ||
| Classax |
Not that it matters but my stock RX made 159 and 161 rwhp on the same dyno on the same day in consecutive runs. A week later with the Race ECU and Resonator deleted it made 164 rwhp. These engines just aren't going to rev beyond 12k and they don't like to do that much either. RPMs equal horsepower. The engine spins up just as fast as the I4s and a tad faster than the 1199. Yet no one is talking about the fact that RPM for RPM it makes more torque and leads even the mighty S1KRR in hp output everywhere up until 11.5K where the rest of these engines get it done with rpm. Will it make 200 plus rwhp the math says its theoretically good for about 230-240 at the crank so its possible theoretically possible to get 210rwhp but the engine would last very long and an errant shift would be all that's needed to grenade it with the current parts in place. The R1 reception as the greatest motorcycle ever(since the panigale, since the RSV4 since the k5 Gixxer1k ... you get the point) proves its not enough anymore to have the most power, Electronics, chassis, suspension and power delivery all have to come together as a package. The 1190 would make a great clup racer, with better brake pad materials and a serious electronics package it would still compete and thus sell in the moto mag wars. As for WSBK, unless you make a high reving twin, you're not going attract a rider capable of taking it near the front and thus you will never win. | ||
| Buellerxt |
I sure enjoy your posts, Classax. | ||
| Sprintst |
Ah, but this board poo-poo'ed electronics back when EBR was first founded and selling $40k bikes.... | ||
| Classax |
"Ah, but this board poo-poo'ed electronics back when EBR was first founded and selling $40k bikes...." I think most of us still do, however the market demands them. I went on record that the bike should have come stock with a quick shifter and the ability to connect to a smartphone. That said, the EBR by all accounts performed dead even with the 1199S(the previous bike of the year) and SuperDuke (current bike of the year). The fact that moto journos picked an "under-powered machine for the class" as this year's bike of the year due to how it handles would have boded well for EBR if they were still around for the test and could manage to send them a bike with no issues. It sucked that since they were all waiting for the 2015-16 updates they skipped doing 2014 shoot outs. | ||
| Stevel |
I appreciate that we are all different in how we want our bikes to behave and our perceived value of certain attributes. Here are some of mine. Horsepower is nothing more than properly burned fuel over time. Torque and RPM are the factors involved. Torque is what we feel and use. High power at extreme RPM is not very practical, unless you are happy with a new motor every 5,000 Km. (Wear and component stress goes up exponentially with RPM) These Rotax engines are happy up to 11,000 RPM. Beyond that, durability is questionable. I like V Twins because they exhibit a higher and flatter torque curve than the 4 cylinder engines and because of this, they are easier to drive fast. This brings up the next point, electronics. I for one do not wish my throttle to be controlled by a transistor. I think it is unsafe. The really high power multi-cylinder bikes need the electronics to prevent the bike from spitting the rider of the bike. I like the idea of a quick shifter and ABS, but not the throttle. It is possible to increase the power of the Rotax engine without the use of extreme RPM. The key is to increase engine torque within the designed speed range. Unlike all the other competing engines, this one has not received any re-engineering, since its original design. There are glaring faults that if corrected could generate both greater power and better drivability. Do not discount this engine. Another couple of engineering iterations and this motor will be right up with the best of them. I have no doubt. | ||
| Henshao |
1290 anyone | ||
| Buelliedan |
we will be very lucky if there ever is another Buell/EBR whatever produced. All this talk about what "they" should do next is worthless without a "they" to do it. | ||
| Classax |
"Another couple of engineering iterations and this motor will be right up with the best of them. I have no doubt." Suzuki, Honda, Aprillia and KTM all tried and failed with iconic machines. The thing is A) only at the very highest levels do you need and exploit the power of WSBK spec machines. B) the more you ride with S1kRRs and Panigales, the more you realize that coming off a corner, 1190 is putting it power down better and even though the other machines have more power available its limited to just about what the 1190 is doing by their electronics, so its at best a draw for most of the rev range. I think there's both place and a for precision high performance analog items in this digital world, but they must be marketed as such and perform almost as well. Unfortunately to compete for sales the next version if there is one will have to have all that in order to even be considered. Case in point look at CBR1KRR or Gixxer1k sales slides in the last three years. | ||
| Henshao |
Honestly in stock trim the 1190 is about on par, power-wise, with the other factory machines. Maybe a little behind, but it was in WSBK where they were down like 25+ horsepower | ||
| 2kx1 |
The same basic 4valve Ducati twin was made from 1990 until 2012 and kind of competitive. The second generation ET V2 has only been made for a year and a half. If EBR has been doing anything the past few month's I hope they have been making it better. And working on the AX. | ||
| Buelliedan |
"If EBR has been doing anything the past few month's I hope they have been making it better. And working on the AX." There is no EBR!!! The company has been dormant since they shut down. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"If EBR has been doing anything the past few month's I hope they have been making it better. And working on the AX." lol Who do you think MIGHT be working on these things? The company is no more. BB deal didnt go through its still up for auction | ||
| D_adams |
And if I win the lottery between now and the auction, I'm BUYING IT ALL. | ||
| Steveford |
He probably can't say but I'm sure Court knows what Erik has been up to. He seems to like to keep busy. | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
Yeh, I thought I saw Erik testing out a hoverbike the other day. |
