| Author | Message | ||
     Jonboy250 |
I bought a 2000 Blast and the timing side of the motor was off of the bike. The gears for the timing have been moved so I have no idea where they are supposed to be. I can't find anything on the internet about it. Anybody know how it is supposed to be set up?} | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/201 64/280643.html?1210997702 Let me know if this helps. | ||
| Jonboy250 |
Thank you for the post but it wasn't what I needed. I need to know how to line up the notches on the gears and what to line them up to.} | ||
| Jonboy250 |
I didn't even see the picture. That might help me out. Thank you.} | ||
| Jonboy250 |
Are those gears aligned at TDC? I assume they are but I can't tell on one of the gears.} | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Yes, TDC. You'll have to look very carefully at the picture as there are multiple marks on the cams. The bottom gear (that also drives the oil pump) is the crankshaft, so that mark will always be in the same place at TDC. | ||
| Jonboy250 |
I'll give it a shot and see what happens. Thanks for your help.} | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Couple more shots as I know the timing marks are hard to see. I assume your using stock camshafts?   | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
This thread has been moved to the cam installation thread under "Cam Timing". | ||
| Truthnexile |
Thank you Erik- these pics help. On my 2000 Blast, I neglected to mark the timing cup before I pulled the gearcase cover to change the gasket, and the intake cam came out with the cover. I already pulled the rocker cover to let pressure off the push rods and am curious about a couple things. Can I just raise the rear wheel and find top dead center through the inspection hole without messing anything up top end, and then install the cams according to the positions shown in your pic (the bike was shut off in neutral, ignition and cams are stock)? This is the first time I've been into this part of the engine, didn't mean to get in this deep right now, but want to make sure timing is correct before reassembling with new gaskets and new oil. | ||
| Crackhead |
jack it up, shift in to fifth gear and spin until everything lines up. | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Concur. Just be careful not to spit any cam gears still in the engine on the floor. | ||
| Truthnexile |
I took my time yesterday, trying to be painstakingly careful, but it's not right (the LED on the module did not light up after reassembly). Thus I gotta pull the cover and look at the cams again (already reassembled everything, sigh). When trying to find TDC, I kept barely overshooting the mark. To go from 5th gear back to neutral required moving the wheel slightly to downshift from each gear. Perhaps that threw me off? It's a bit of a headache but I'm gonna try again. Thanks guys. | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
I'm confused??? Why do you need to go back to neutral? and...while i just woke up (seriously) You might just have things 180 degrees out as far as the timing. I dont think that timing the cams and timing the ignition are related in setting either of them (if you can understand what I mean-you'll still get an LED flash even if the cams are timed wrong). I would not pull the cover again unless you are sure you've got it wrong. You'll need (or should replace) a new gasket and if they are spot on, you've wasted you time. I always take pictures of cam timing as they are often seem subject to interpretation and never seem to be exact (like always a half tooth off). It also doesnt matter where the cams are you'll get an LED light if the ignition is working. No LED light-then there is a different problem. If you've already tried spinning the engine with the starter, then do that and look for the LED flashing. If it doesnt flash you have a different problem. WARNING:If you havent spun the engine and the cams are way off, you can bend a valve. Hope that all makes sense-yawn.... | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
PS You can spin the engine all you want if the rocker arm assemblies are still off. Pull the spark plug out though and ground the plug wire (lest you get a "surprise"!). | ||
| Jetlee |
Here's my XB cams in my Blast. Note the timing marks are similar. If you're not DEAD-ON with that exhaust cam, it runs poorly.  Also note the notch for the timing cup. You need to modify your timing cup to run these cams. (Message edited by Jetlee on September 23, 2011) | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Nice picture (insert thumbs up emoticon here)! The notch is in a really different spot. I used an old camshaft to re-notch the rotor for my timing cup. | ||
| Jetlee |
Ok, so I've been battling fuel spray from the carb. I think I've nailed it down. My cam timing is SE551/XB: (V-O/C-Dur-Lift-Lift @ TDC) I-25/44-249-.551-.192 E-59/10-249-.551-.122 Compare to a B50: I-16/32-228-.498-.163 E-43/15-238-.498-.146 or a stock Blast: I-10/26-215-.475-.073 E-39/11-230-.475-.080 Notice the position and duration of the overlap. The B50 and W cams have a very balanced overlap. The XB cams are heavily weighted on the intake side. Wtf? Now an N4 (which is supposed to be similar output to the SE551): I-30/46-256-.465-.180 E-52/24-256-.440-.155 The N4, while more duration, is more balanced than mine as well. If I retard the intake cam one notch, it retards all events ~16º to: I-9/60 E-43/26 The original install, I had the exhaust retarded 1 notch by accident and it ran very poorly: I-25/44 E-33/36 Adjusting the intake cam one tooth gives ~16º change to both cams (720/46=15.65º) while changing the exhaust cam one tooth gives a ~26º degree change to exhaust alone (720/28=25.71º) I could retard the intake and advance the exhaust, but that would end up with: I-9/60 E-69/0 Blah...So...my question...is it possible to re-degree these cams to balance the overlap and reduce reversion? Maybe with a press, pull off the gears and degree them where I want. Or should I bite the bullet and find some SE536's? I only paid like $135 for these SE551's (Acutally off an XB9), is why I'm insistent on using them. | ||
| Jetlee |
Maybe I can use an offset woodruff key on the pinion shaft to get an end result similar to: I-17/52 E-52/17 I figure that would require ~.05" offset to get ~8º. Now to find either an offset key, or a stock key to weld/grind. (Message edited by Jetlee on December 09, 2011) | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
I really cant speak to the whole scenario but...the key is prone to failure so I'd use caution if using an offset key. I think the gears can be pressed off (as I think this is the way Red Shift does/or did them). As far as reversion (or likewise buildup of atomized fuel around the intake): The type of intake and placement used can also affect this. Rather than try to re engineer a good cam, tuning the exhaust would be a better solution. Since overlap is intended to improve the 'scavange' effect from the exhaust gases, the exhaust can likewise be tuned where the pulse isnt pushing the fuel back in the cylinder but pulling it out. Some links to ponder: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/201 64/19257.html#POST95487 http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/201 64/12385.html I'm in no way qualified to give a correct and full answer to your problem as there's more to it than in my simplified form. But I think the direction to go is to tune the engine to the cam, not detune the cam to the engine. EZ's 'Land Speed Exhaust" is a fine example of how much tuning work can be done to an exhaust for maximum performance. I'd consider biting the bullet for another set of cams, but I think you'll still end up with issues. I'd certainly like to hear from others on this subject. FWIW: Every modification from stock rarely comes without detriment or trade off. IMHO the stock XB top end on the Blast engine offers very little in loss as I see the only drawback is reduced low to midrange power which might make the Blast a little less drivable for the new rider. I think with proper tuning (or fuel injection) this would be eliminated almost completely. | ||
| Jetlee |
I have another idea on an exhaust, as I think I started my steps too large on this header. But looking at 15 different cams for the Blast, this has the worst overlap balance. The next is a 45 degree overlap offset to the intake by 9 degrees. These XB cams are 35 offset by 15...that's a LOT! In my unprofessional but well-read opinion, I think the exhaust valve is timed too early. All the rest are fairly close to even. I think these cams are just a poor choice for single cylinder, non-fi engines because of that timing. In an FI engine, there's not standing fuel in the port to blow out during initial reversion. In a twin-cyl engine, this fuel just gets sucked into the other cylinder. For us singles, it gets blow back out the carb. Balance the overlap a little more, and I think it should help quite a bit. If it were possible to re-time the exhaust cam, I think retarding it 10-15 degrees would be optimum. I've looked up pressings on/off the pinion gear, so taking into account the key failure that you mention, I think this will be a fairly quick and easy thing to do once I degree the cam. I plan to degree them this afternoon and we'll go from there. I'll use the tools/machines at work to do the pressing (HUGE mfg shop) hopefully on Sunday, if I can get them degree'd today. Doing this, I'll just take the existing overlap and balance it out. I'm thinking for exhaust, to build something like Pierce's or the Peashooter, starting at 1.5" ID and stepping up from there in 1/8" increments ending at 2" at the can. This is about the best I can come up with using online header/pipe calculators. However the lengths of each step are still yet to be determined/calculated, as I need to take into consideration cooling and density for optimum rpm range, etc. (Message edited by Jet-Lee on December 10, 2011) | ||
| Jetlee |
I just think these cams would benefit a lot from having the open/close times and overlap more balanced. | ||
| Styxnpicks |
running the simulations of the exhaust cam retarded 10-15 degrees with everything else being the same you gain more middle ground but loose a little top end. torque from 4000-5500 is increased with a max increase of about 2 ft-lb at 4750. you give up about .2-.7 ft-lb from 5600 on up. honestly I'd call it more work than its worth however you would have more umph from 4000 to 5500.. your quarter mile time would suffer a tad | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Nice! Some very well thought out posts. This is why I came to Badweb all those years ago! I understand now what you mean on the overlap and reversion. Makes sense. | ||
| Jetlee |
@Styx: Considering this is a torque cam anyways, known to drop off where the 536 keeps going, I think I'd like that little gain. That's the rpm rang that I usually cruise in as well. If your simulations are correct, that would be great! Don't get me wrong, I'd love more top end...but these cams just aren't for that so I'll take what I can get. If I can gain ~2 ft-lb in my normal operating range while only suffering ~.5 ft-lb elsewhere, I'll take it. Throttle response for the win! Can you tell me at which rpm is the worst loss? I have the tools and time, I enjoy fiddling. That's also why I'm going to pull my exhaust diameter down a little. I feel this exhaust is more for top-end, which these cams aren't making. So I'll keep this one and build one tuned for these. Maybe not a stump puller, but decent low end with a sick midrange and decent top-end...that will suit me fine while I research others and figure out exactly what I want. -Edit- Can you run the sims with only 8 degree retarded? I missed in the first response that you said 15 degrees, but I don't like those open/close events. I can get 15 degrees by offsetting the intake came from the shaft by one tooth; I wouldn't need to press it off/on. I'm considering pressing it to get 7-8 degrees retarded for a better balance of the overlap. Keep in mind, the intake cam will get the same degrees retarded as well. (Message edited by Jet-Lee on December 10, 2011) (Message edited by Jet-Lee on December 10, 2011) | ||
| Styxnpicks |
I think your on to something here. keep in mind I'm running the sims with stage 2 lite xb head flow numbers and a 515 kit @10.5:1 but the trend results will likely be simalar. both intake and exhaust cams retarded 8 degrees added 5ft/lb of torque at 4750rpm with torque being better fromm 4000-6200.. and the top end only suffering a ft lbs at 6500. | ||
| Jetlee |
Ok...dont retard both cams 15 degrees. Idle was very lopey and sounded awesome...when it would idle with ~1/4 throttle. Exhaust got VERY hot VERY fast! It didn't do anything but die if I tried to give it any throttle. Will set back to original after it cools down. This weekend it will get the 8 degree's retard when I take it to work. -Edit- Wait, just realized that set my timing 15 degrees retarded as well! Going to fix that and see how it runs then... (Message edited by Jet-Lee on December 12, 2011) | ||
| Jetlee |
Ok, re-notched my timing cup and played with the static timing. HOLY COW! Styx, how does retarding both int/exh 15 degrees compare to 8 degrees? I feel like I lost some power on the very bottom end. The midrange is AMAZING and comes on VERY smooth, unlike before. The top end feels to have more power as well, as it smacks that 7500rpm rev limiter with authority! I'd say this was very worthwhile! If the sims say 8 degrees should be better, I'll be doing some pressing, but I'm very happy as is. Shifting from 2nd to 3rd at WOT is pretty scary. From 1st to 2nd and I almost shat myself! Front wheel just pops right up if I'm not on top of that tank. -Edit- AND! I have nowhere near as much fuel spray on my leg! BONUS! (Message edited by Jet-Lee on December 12, 2011) | ||
| Jetlee |
Still some fuel spray, enough to still annoy me. Ordering the steel for the new exhaust, soon. Pulling on the highway...I topped out every gear relatively easily, except 5th. I think wind drag just caught up to me. In my summer jacket (tight fit, no seams) I've done 107mph. This morning in my winter jacket (loose fit, textile, seams) I couldn't much top 99mph. I could feel the power was there, and the more I tucked, the faster I got, so I think if I had my summer jacket on, I would top out 5th ~113mph. I'm really interested what Styx sims show 15º retard both cams vs 8º retard both cams. (Message edited by Jetlee on December 13, 2011) | ||
| Styxnpicks |
I'll run the numbers later tonight. but so far from what I've seen. you gain a ton of theoretical midrange with a very minimal loss in top end. the only difference really is that I'm running a 515 10.5:1 kit with a stage 2 light xb head. so the numbers might not be exact because the increase in displacement is good for 1 ft-lb of torque across the board. and I'm sure the larger ported valves I have are good for more flow at the top end. |
