| Author | Message | ||
     Fast1075 |
Clearly define "hard parts" please. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
"Right" ...... Is an interesting word that likely means "what I wish..." as opposed to "right". I can't speak for the U.S. market, but the EU member states have laws in place strictly controlling vehicle sales. Their parts supply, tools for repair, and access to diagnostic technology, all being made available to and for the consumer. Rocket in England | ||
| Stevel |
It appears there is some confusion over the term "hard parts". I am not speaking about replacement spares, they are being supplied by HD, but we will start to see diminishing availability and higher prices for those in the near future. Hard parts are high performance engine parts like cams, valve springs, spring retainers, valves, pistons, piston pins, different injectors etc. Hard parts are those items needed to change the characteristics of the engine, as opposed to soft parts like grips, levers windscreens and anodized pretty parts. There needs to be different cam lobe profiles available and nobody makes them. In order to grind different cams, new cores need to be available, Nobody makes those. The cylinder head can accommodate only 10mm of valve lift. In order to accommodate greater lift, the cam base circle needs to be reduced. In order to accommodate higher lift longer valves are also needed. In order to support greater lobe acceleration rates, longer and larger diameter valve springs are needed. New valve springs require different spring retainers etc. Until the aftermarket starts producing these parts, this engine is at a huge disadvantage, as these pieces are available for other brands. If the tuner wishes to move the valve centers around, he cannot without adjustable drive gears. The standard engine doesn't support this. The advantage a v-twin has is its inherent greater drivability. It is critical that the rider be able to precisely control wheel torque with the throttle in curves to maximize exit drive. Partial throttle response is critical here. Traditionally, this has been achieved by conservative cam timing among other things. The excessively late intake valve closure point and the excessively early opening of the exhaust valve on both the 1125 and 1190 stock cams, as well as the racing cams I have measured enhances pumping losses, hurts fuel efficiency, kills bottom end torque, puts excessive strain on the cam drive chain when opening the exhaust valve under high cylinder pressure and destroys low/mid speed throttle response. All these sacrifices are made for a very slight increase of torque above 8,000 rpm. This very important tuning and testing cannot take place without the availability of these pieces. Most of you ride these Helicon engined bikes and have experienced these shortfalls first hand. I am very certain these faults can be corrected without sacrificing high end power, but not without these parts. | ||
| Wymaen |
Stevel, are you actually surprised that the parts you're describing aren't available for an engine that been out of production for almost 5 years? Really? There is literally no reason for the aftermarket to support the Helicon at all, and it's doubtful the original suppliers have parts on hand for dealership needs, let alone requests by individual end-users for product development. Or you may be referring to the ET-V2; in that case, it should also be unsurprising that EBR (and their suppliers) haven't been flooding the market with bits of tech from their barely-released street bikes. How many RX models have gone out the door and made it onto the road, do you think? Maybe 250? 400? That's certainly not enough of a base for any aftermarket company to spend loads of cash developing any of the parts you've mentioned. Rocket, I'm not sure what your last comment was meant to convey...in the US, we can buy parts and specialty tools from a dealership the same way you can. However, I don't think that's what is being discussed here. Stevel's chief complaint (as I read it) is that the companies who supply EBR with the parts to build their motorcycles aren't interested in (and are contractually obligated to refrain from) selling those same parts to entities outside of EBR. I don't understand why this comes as a surprise to anyone- go to the Bosch website and try to purchase the ABS system for a new BMW motorcycle, or, as someone else already stated, ring up Delco and tell them you want a radio from a new Stingray- it's not going to happen. | ||
| Stevel |
W, Of course I'm not surprised, I have stated this in previous threads. This engine never went out of production. It has been manufactured since 2007. Originally made by Rotax and now being made by EBR with very few changes. However, evolutionary development has never taken place. It has great potential, but is to date undeveloped. Development is expensive My point has been and still is that sharing the burden of this development with the aftermarket reduces EBR's cost dramatically as well as increase development speed. EBR is not of the same opinion and is not encouraging external development. | ||
| Trojan |
My point has been and still is that sharing the burden of this development with the aftermarket reduces EBR's cost dramatically as well as increase development speed. Which is why Suzuki have a relationship with Yoshimura, Kawasaki with Akira, Honda with Cosworth etc. The manufactuer can get on with building street bikes and 'assisting' developent of race parts by third parties without spending all their time on it. if the upgrades work then the maufacturer shares the plaudits, if they don't then they blame the supplier  | ||
| D_adams |
mmmmm, I do believe you are somewhat mis-informed on that front. | ||
| Classax |
Please stop saying the Helicon is a Rotax engine. Every tissue is not a Kleenex. BRP did not brand the Helicon as Rotax nor the 1190, or ET-VT. It was a joint venture between BRP and BMC. The clutch cover will tell you what brand the engine is. On the Helicon it clearly say Buell, on he EBR it clearly states ET-V2 EBR. | ||
| Hughlysses |
So, WSBK testing is happening today and tomorrow at Portimao. I believe Jens posted some info earlier that EBR was expected to be there? http://www.worldsbk.com/en/news/2014/portimao+supe rbike+test+preview 14 hours of track time could be a huge benefit to them right now. | ||
| Fast1075 |
This is amusing to the point of near hilarity. Imagine the first 1125 prototype on the test dyno. Now imagine the first production 1125. Now imagine the first known 1190 (possibly the German race bike)(possibly one built in house at EBR, who knows?) Now imagine the 1190rs, then the current engine. Who cares if the original had "Gunther" or "Erik" scratched on the clutch cover, or if subsequent versions had "Buell" or now EBR. Evolution of a design. Zora Arkus Duntov (all hail the creator of the mighty smallblock)designed a 265 Cubic Inch engine. The originals suffered from some issues like excessive oil consumption. That was ironed out, and the engine evolved over a period of decades to become the most dominant auto engine ever created. Evolution of a design. The competition's "answer" engines were better at the time. Evolution of design changed the course of history. As far as hard parts for the 1190 engine go, as I pointed out some time back, are available, Need slotted cam sprockets? Will 1190rs sprockets fit? If not, it's not HARD to build a jig and run an indexing mill like thousands of drag racers did before slotted cam sprockets became commercially available. Carillo has the CAD drawings, and if they ARE proprietary, send them a pair of rods, they will build a set, they do it all the time. No voodo. Same with cams. Send a set of stockers to Web, and tell them how you want them done. Valves? Ferrea and Kibblwhite have TONS of valve blanks. Spec what you want, they will send you the blanks and you can fit them, or send the heads to APE and tell then what you want. Same with pistons, CP and Wiseco both do custom work. Over the years, I greatly enjoyed racing the weird, the strange, the unusual, where WAS NO support, factory or otherwise. The fun is in figuring out how to make it work. (Message edited by fast1075 on July 21, 2014) | ||
| Trojan |
No EBR at the test so far. Another chance to test gone....makes me wonder how they expect to develop anything in races alone. This from the timing screen on world superbike web site. 1 1 T. SYKES Kawasaki ZX-10R 1'43.128 ------- ------- PIT IN 2 50 S. GUINTOLI Aprilia RSV4 Factory 1'43.279 ------- ------- PIT IN 0.151 3 34 D. GIUGLIANO Ducati 1199 Panigale R 1'43.963 ------- ------- PIT IN 0.835 4 33 M. MELANDRI Aprilia RSV4 Factory 1'44.288 ------- ------- PIT IN 1.160 5 76 L. BAZ Kawasaki ZX-10R 1'44.587 ------- ------- 1'44.971 1.459 6 7 C. DAVIES Ducati 1199 Panigale R 1'44.737 ------- ------- PIT IN 1.609 7 71 C. CORTI MV Agusta F4 RR 1'45.032 ------- ------- PIT IN 1.904 8 44 D. SALOM Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'45.145 ------- ------- PIT OUT 2.017 9 21 A. ANDREOZZI Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'45.400 ------- ------- PIT IN 2.272 10 11 J. GUARNONI Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'45.934 ------- ------- PIT OUT 2.806 | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I don't understand why this comes as a surprise to anyone- go to the Bosch website and try to purchase the ABS system for a new BMW motorcycle, or, as someone else already stated, ring up Delco and tell them you want a radio from a new Stingray- it's not going to happen. But the ABS system has to be available for sale to a customer by law from somewhere under BMW's authority if not from themselves. Ditto the Stingray radio. If Delco can't sell it, Stingray have to. Rocket in England | ||
| Bigblock |
It seems suspicious that there are only and exactly 10 testing riders at Portimao, I wonder if the SBK website is only listing the top ten? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Why would you think that? That means no manufacturer could ever stop making a part. What law and what country are you talking about? | ||
| Court |
>>>Why would you think that? That means no manufacturer could ever stop making a part. As silly as the . . ."HD has to supply parts for 7 years". I've asked, since the day Buell was closed, for someone to show me that in writing. | ||
| Jens |
http://www.speedweek.com/sbk/news/60473/Portimao-T est-Fehlende-Teams-Konsequenzen-drohen.html Translation: Problem for all Teams, each rider have only 8 engines, what includes the test rides. For Buell that is neck breaking, the USTeam is at Portimão, but decided last minute that they will not test, to save engines. For full text use Google Translator | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Eat your heart out.... http://www.clasf.org/CompLRev/Issues/Vol6Issue2Art 3MarcoColino.pdf Rocket in England | ||
| 46champ |
A fine set of rules we have here the only people who can test are the ones who don't need to...The rich get richer. | ||
| Hughlysses |
That is pretty looney. Odd that the team apparently didn't figure out the engine rule for testing until after they showed up for the tests. | ||
| Fastphil |
Court, Dealey Canada had on there webpage that they would supply parts and service for 10 years. I printed this out,and gave it to the person who bought my 1125R. | ||
| Jens |
Let's hope they turn a wheel today.... | ||
| Trojan |
Odd that the team apparently didn't figure out the engine rule for testing until after they showed up for the tests. The way that team has been run this year it isn't odd at all, just seems about par for the course to me. They have already used up more than their 8 allowed engines for the season, and starting from pit lane is hardly going to affect their race result or position, so if the avowed aim is development rather than race results then testing should be extremely important to them. I'd test anyway and take the penalty at the next race. Unless.... they simply don't physically have enough engines to test with? (which then makes you wonder why the went to the trouble of attending Portimao at all?). Seems to me that there is no strategy in the team at all this year. Let's hope that they aren't asked to arrange a p*** up in a brewery | ||
| Jens |
I'd test anyway and take the penalty at the next race. Same I had done. Looks more and more that it´s all about Show and shine to be part of the Circus, but not really aiming on progress and learning within the season. Thats how it works: http://www.speedweek.com/sbk/news/60520/Exklusiv-W ie-Kawasaki-am-Superbike-2015-arbeitet.html Translation Headline: How Kawasaki work on the 2015 Superbike (at Portimão today) PLEASE, dont tell me now, small Team, limited resourches and all that usual blabla. If they are short on money (what they are not I guess)the Team/EBR should put less priority in Trucks and Show. How about get focused on the Job?  | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
its seriously laughable at this point how ridiculous these teams are | ||
| Hughlysses |
Article on EBR at Laguna Seca: http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/07/19/wsbk-ebr-has- breakthrough-weekend-at-laguna-seca/ Erik says both Larry and Geoff's engines were built by EBR in East Troy (implying other engines used this year were not?). Their logic in not testing yesterday or today is hard to fathom. One thing NOT testing will enable them to do is find out how many races Geoff's improved engine will last. That will be a vital piece of info for next year. | ||
| Trojan |
One thing NOT testing will enable them to do is find out how many races Geoff's improved engine will last. Even that doesn't really make sense, as they will already closely monitor engine hours. It really shouldn't matter whether that is in a test, practice or race as overall engine life will be the same surely? One thing is for sure, if they don't use it then the engine will last for years, although that isn't much of an advert for the reliability of the motor! The cost of transporting the team and equipment all the way to Portugal and then not test must be pretty huge. I'm sure that budget could be better spent elsewhere and I wonder what the bean counters at Hero & EBR think when they get the bill. (Message edited by trojan on July 22, 2014) | ||
| Jens |
Most teams had parked the Trucks in the Paddock since the race. But of course all other must be there. I still hope they go out today. All over, 14! hours testing track time yesterday and today available..... | ||
| Court |
>>>its seriously laughable at this point how ridiculous these teams are And . . you forgot to mention . . .how little the internet observers gallery knows. | ||
| Trojan |
And . . you forgot to mention . . .how little the internet observers gallery knows. Please enlighten us ignorant observers further....to the layman on the street it looks like this...... 1.Team needs development and is struggling this year. 2. Testing allowed at Portimao this week that would assist development. 3. Team is at Portimao already. 4. Team don't test. If that is to save engines for races then it is a poor decision, as they need the test time more than anyone else, so a race penalty would be a small price to pay for 14 hours extra track time.......unless they simply don't have the engines available to use. Which is it? Whatever the reason, it is clear even to an ignorant internet gallery oberserver that all is not well, other wise they would have plenty of engines and would be testing right now. | ||
| Rubberdown |
The whole "wise man behind the green curtain" line really gets old. |
