| Author | Message | ||
     Buewulf |
The last few times I had ridden the Uly, I experienced some momentary engine cutting (like a momentary loss of spark) while on the freeway. It would give a few cuts midway through the 40 min commute to work and then be fine. I wanted to resolve this earlier this week (as I had my first big ride of the riding season planned for NW Arkansas this weekend). So I took the seat off Wednesday and I thought I had found the culprit: the battery ground was pretty loose. I brushed it clean and tightened it back up. The ride to work yesterday morning went flawlessly, and I thought I had rectified the problem. The commute home was a different story. I experienced the brief cuts like before about 15 minutes into the ride and thought. About five minutes later, it started cutting out really badly, badly enough to make the bike buck pretty hard. It wasn't constant. The problem manifested itself in barrages of bucking and cutting followed by short lapses of perfect running. I would also experience the following symptoms as I limped back home: 1) Engine shut down completely four times. Restarted instantly with no problem. 2) Three instances of a severe loss of power (as if running on one cylinder) lasted just a few seconds. Two of the four engine shutdowns occurred immediately after this was experienced. 3) The bike idled perfectly. In fact, I got home mostly by accelerating up to about 90 - 100 mph and then pulling the clutch and coasting as long as I could before having to accelerate again. All of the weird stuff happened while the bike was under power (steady or acceleration) except: 4) When I would pull the clutch, engine speed would not drop to idle right away. The tach would slowly (over 6 or 7 seconds) and unevenly fall to idle and would usually hang up around 2200 rpm for a few seconds before getting there. Once at idle, it would idle perfectly without a hiccup. 5) Backfiring. I got this several times along the way following a series of engine cuts. Two of the four engine shutdowns happened after a backfire. 6) The engine check light would illuminate only very briefly (1 second or less) twice during the ride home. 7) Just once, the tach and speedo needles simultaneously dropped to zero before waking back up a split second later. That was the only time the speedo had any type of reaction to what was going on. 8) The last five minutes of the drive were uneventful. The bike seemed fine. Checked the battery ground and leads again. Fine. Rode it around for ten minutes this morning before work. Fine. 9) This may be purely coincidental, but I noticed that the prior, minor instances over the last couple of weeks of the cutting and these major ones occurred when the engine was fully warmed up with fan running. Yesterday's flawless ride to work was on a very cool morning, and the fan did not come on until I turned the key off at the office. So instead of burning through the Ozarks this weekend, I'll be running down gremlins. With what seems to be fuel timing and spark issues, this sounds like it may be an ECM issue, but I am hoping for the best. I plan to look at all the major grounding points. I know of the ones under the seat, behind the lamp assembly and under the airbox. (Any more I need to know about?) I will probably also change out the relays just for good measure assuming one of the local dealers has them in stock. My electrical expertise pretty much ends there. If I can get ECMspy to communicate with the bike this afternoon, I'll post any trouble codes it throws out. Where do you guys think I should start looking? I would appreciate any advice you could give. Thanks! Bike is a 2006. Can't beleive I forgot to mention that earlier. ECM was relocated over a year ago when I noticed the seat was rubbing it. (Message edited by Buewulf on October 21, 2011) | ||
| Rr_eater |
What you are describing sounds just like ECM connector issues that are WELL documented in many posts here in the "Dirty" forum. Check for chaffing from the seat bottom on the ECM housing and connectors. I have begun to surmise that the cutting out and intermittent running issues are tied to the fan running, and have come to believe that the cracked and worn ECM connectors, along with a running fan exacerbate the issue. I may be wrong, I'm not a Buell tech or rocket scientist, but I do find it very odd most people who have these same running issues have it when the fan is running. NO fault of the fan logic or operation, but since the ground for the fan is switched by the ECM to maintain high or low speed operation, that’s a ton of current going through what may already be a questionable connector issue IF it is running. ALSO, what you are describing with the cut-out issue sounds a lot like the old bank angle sensor woes many experienced before the recalls for them were completed. This was an issue primarily with the 2006 and early 2007 (if I remember correctly), so that is something to think about as well. I know your pain man, and I wish there was a sure fire answer to your issue, but cleaning up and tightening the grounds, while VERY preventative maintenance, are most likely not your issue. JUST my .02 Bruce | ||
| Buewulf |
Thanks Bruce. I am worried there is an ECM issue. I just want to try and rule out the cheap stuff before I spend $300 on a new ECM. I noticed some rubbing on one of the ECM connectors quite some time ago after I had installed a "low" seat on the bike. I had relocated the ECM at that time. It looked fine at the time, but perhaps it had some hairline cracks that I couldn't see that have since been further compromised by vibration. I'll have to check. I have replaced the BAS before. The backfiring, fueling and skipping lead me to believe that the BAS is not the culprit here. (Message edited by Buewulf on October 21, 2011) | ||
| Etennuly |
There is a red power supply wire in the wire bundle that crosses over the steering neck and goes up into the headlamp area. You have to un-wrap the bundle to get at it, but it is not that big of a deal, and this is nearly free to do. The red wire has a splicer into three power lead wires for the ignition, gages, and power outlet. For what ever reason they put the splice in an area that has to flex. These wires are in heat shrink that is wax filled. They can break and you can have the broken one in your hands and not know it. You have to cut the shrink wrap to see if they are broken. Because the heat shrink holds them in place, they can give intermittent failures. If the main wire coming into the splice breaks it can do exactly what you are suffering from. The best fix I found was to do a single splice on an extending wire up into the headlamp area, then do the triple splice there where it will not be flexing. There is also a triple splice for the right turnsignal in the same area. White wire I believe, might as well move it up while you have it open. This makes the wire bundle four wires smaller and easier to flex. | ||
| Blake |
The tip sensor issue was not one of bad sensors, but of vibration. If your Uly didn't get the fix for that, well, there you go. | ||
| Etennuly |
The BAS problem was the engine simply shutting off at the most inconvenient of times. Recycling the start switch would fire it right back up without any of the other symptoms he has described. | ||
| Blake |
That's right. Thanks for the correction. | ||
| Buewulf |
Thanks for the tips. I'll take a look at that triple splice Etennuly and move it out of the stress zone whether it is the problem or not. I am about to get started, so I'll let you guys know what I find. The only trouble code ECMspy pulled was, interestingly enough, relating to the BAS. Code 44: BAS short to supply voltage or open. On further initial inspection of everything roughly visible to my eyes was a brown wire with a purple stripe coming from the ECM had the insulation just barely worn to the wire, though it isn't touching anything that I can tell. Anyone know what that is? | ||
| Rays |
The triple splice is shown in the picture (and the blinker one beside it). My '06 has had both of these splices fail - as you can see the original loom guide that forced the loom into the 'S' shape didn't help and the location is plain dumb. I did a temporary fix on the ignition as shown (the broken wire in this case was the backup power to the instruments - the other other two heavier wires are for the ignition switch). When the blinker failed later (the R/H circuit is the Brown one) I did as Etennuly has suggested and moved the splice up into the non-flexing area and moved the other end of the join back below the flexing area. That has been reliable for 40,000miles. You can remove the beak and headlight assembly as one unit quite readily and get good access to this area - if you remove the loom guide and run the bike you now know exactly where to flex the loom to try and induce your problem. If you are careful you can also unwrap the friction tape and re-use it.  | ||
| Etennuly |
Thanks Ray, I looked back for a while today and could not find my pictures of the broken wire. I reused the wire wrap also, then gave it a covering of electrical tape. My failure was also about forty thousand miles ago. | ||
| Teeps |
Move the ECM first. Mine would do the same thing as you describe. After moving the ECM off the stock mount; it has not happened since... Cheap and easy. | ||
| Buewulf |
Teeps - Thanks. I had relocated the ECM some time back when I noticed rubbing. Well, I looked at just about every wire and connector on the bike last night. 1) Found the splices referenced. Tugged, pulled and twisted but could not even get the slightest hiccup out of the bike. They seem to be sound. I will be resplicing and moving the splice into the fairing as suggested for good measure. 2) Insulation on an orange / white wire going into a white connector was exposing wire right at the crimp. Plastic was a little melted around it. Fixed it, but I don't see how this would have anything to do with the problem. 3) Exposed ECM wire mentioned earlier about 12 inchec down from ECM. Did not see anything it could short against, but fixed anyway. 4) Reexamined ECM. I either missed it when I moved the ECM originally, or they have since developed: there is some hairline cracking on both posts. I have to push on the posts firmly to see them, but the cracks are there. However, pushing on both posts, I still wasn't able to replicate the problem. I am about to put things back together, then I'll go for a ride after lunch and try to get the fan running since it always has been on when the issue surfaced. Then, I'll pull over and see if I can replicate the issues with pushing, tugging and twisting on stuff. | ||
| 7873jake |
Initially, my ECM wouldn't act up until it was good and warm under the seat which equated to about 30 mins away from the house. Now, I can wiggle the rear connector on that ECM and shut the bike down, even when its cold. | ||
| Rays |
Buewulf, the pressure on the ECM connectors is a MAJOR problem and if you look at the complexity of the internals of the ECM the failure mode can be very unpredictable in outcome, Your plan to get the ECM nice and hot before wiggling it sounds very valid. My ECM does have cracks as well but that is only an indicator of pressure on the potting compound, definitely not a guarantee the ECM has been damaged internally - is it possible to borrow a good ECM as an isolation exercise? You saw the instruments 'sweep' in synch with one of your hiccups. The splice that was discussed above supplies power to 2 sets of contacts in the ignition switch and these contacts can cause problems when they get dirty. This link has info in relation to another forum member having this manifest itself as cutting out while running. It doesn't match your symptom exactly by the sound of it but could match the situation when you saw the instruments sweep. If nothing else this will alert you to one of the possible XB electrical gremlins. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/481783.html Your failures appear to have very short intervals to cause the momentary on-off so the other things you need to eliminate are the sockets for the fuses and relays and the relays (keyswitch & ignition) themselves. If you swapped the Start & AUX relays with the Keyswitch and Ignition (make sure you record what is swapped with what to let you backtrack) you should see a change in symptom if there is anything suspect. I probably don't need to tell you that electrical gremlins are notoriously difficult to isolate at the best of times so in the high temperature, high vibration environment of a Buell they are even more frustrating. Sometimes it is a case of documenting what is working to zero in on the issue. | ||
| Buewulf |
Thanks for all of the great info, guys. I switched the relays for the ride this afternoon, and it is fine. I'll check the contacts Rays mentioned just to see how they are, but I think I verified the problem: the ECM. After getting it good and hot, the bike started coughing again. I pulled over and started wiggling stuff. Nada. Continued back home, coughing along the way. I noticed that when my RPMs were above 5000, the hiccups almost never manifested, and above 5500 it didn't hiccup at all. Drop below 5000 gain, and the coughs would start almost immediately. That happens to be an engine speed on my bike where the vibes transition from a prominent, lower-frequency thrumming that I notice mostly through the pegs to a mild, higher-frequency buzz that I feel mostly in the bars. Got me thinking. Started wiggling things again when I got home. Still nothing. Pulled the ECM out of its spot between the battery and fuse box and struck the body lightly with a wrench. Hiccup. Gave a few firm, rapid knocks. Hiccup, backfire, hiccup, die. Fuel pump priming erratically. Restart, same test, same result. I was able to duplicate it five times without fail. My hypothesis is that it is slowly vibrating to death, and the more forceful vibes at lower RPMs augment the symptoms. In any case, I am pretty sure I need a new ECM. Wish I had access to another ECM just to be 100% sure, but I don't. If anyone is brave enough to knock on your perfectly good ECM with a wrench to see if it misbehaves when beaten, please let me know the result.  Dammit. Does Erik Buell Racing make them for the pre-08 XBs? If so, will I still be able to use ECMspy for diagnostics, TPS resets and all that other fun stuff on the Erik Buell Racing ECM? | ||
| Rays |
Buewulf - have a look at the internals of an ECM on this link: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/597784.html?1286216751 There is absolutely nothing in there that should react to tapping / vibration so it looks like you might have a smoking gun. If nobody from the US chimes in I could help with the loan of a spare ECM but shipping / time from Australia would be a nuisance I imagine? | ||
| Buewulf |
Could be Rays, but I am pretty sure it is the ECM. Plus whether it should react or not to the tapping, I get repeatable results by doing so. I went out again this morning and began checking things again after some sustained skipping. This time the engine coughed and shut down as I was moving the ECM out of its place. I was able to get it to shut down and/or cough by the aforementioned tapping as well as by wiggling one of the connectors this time. Thanks for offering to loan a spare ECM. That says a lot about you. But you are correct: shipping time from Australia can be lengthly plus I'd be worried it would get lost in the mail. I wouldn't need to borrow an ECM, though. I could just send mine to someone willing to put it on their bike. If they get the same symptoms, they can throw it away, and I can buy a new ECM. Otherwise, they can ship it back, and I'll go back to the proverbial drawing board and try to run this gremlin down. | ||
| Rr_eater |
Jeremy If you want to send it my way, I would be more then happy to test it. I have an 06 as well, no current issues and I cannot get a hiccup utilizing your methods of testing, so I would say I am a good transplant candidate. And like you said, if it is AFU, I have a trash can right next to the bike!! Plus I have ECM spy which I would love to datalog with while testing to see exactly what part of the ECM is going wacky. LMK Bruce | ||
| 7873jake |
FWIW, just returned from picking up my 07 from the dealer. Got a brand new ECM under warranty by way of the EPA mandated warranty period on emissions control devices. As stated previously, mine had gotten so bad that by merely touching it, I could make it act up. (that doesn't really sound like I intended it to) Check your owner's manual for EPA warranty limits. | ||
| Buewulf |
Thanks, Jake. I'll look into the warranty deal. Bruce, I'll definitely take you up on your offer if there is no warranty coverage. Thanks for offering! | ||
| Mattmcc00 |
My bike did the same for 3 months and culminated in a boken channel key. HD is rebuilding my engine for free. We will see if it still does it after the rebuild. I get th bike back tomorrow. I have a Drummer SS and an EBR ECM that i never installed, wanting to fix the problem before. If it still does this problem i will try the ecm tapping test. | ||
| Bike_pilot |
FWIW the two dealers near me and one near where the bike was stranded (boston) flatly refused to warranty my cracked ECM ('09 that was, at the time, below the mileage cut-off for the emissions warranty). The fed warranty is clear enough and the ECM is even on HD's list of "emissions" parts. Still, if the dealer is no good sueing them would cost a heck of a lot more than the $250 I paid for an E B R ECM. | ||
| Buewulf |
What I got from the dealer here is that if the ECM is cracked due to the seat contacting it, then the seat (not under warranty) is the cause of the problem and the ECM would not be covered. If the ECM just went bad, then there would still be coverage. That is fair enough. The original seat did not make contact with the ECM. I didn't notice rubbing until I put the low seat on the bike. Plus by the time I pay them to diagnose an ECM that probably wouldn't be covered, I could have bought a used one somewhere for the same money. Plus there is still the freak chance that it is something besides the ECM. | ||
| Etennuly |
So the seat causes the ECM to fail and HD won't cover it? I would have asked who mounted the ECM where it could rub the seat, and referenced the large number of seats that have been noted to have rubbed the ECM here, and how moving the ECM has helped many. Did you buy the low seat from Buell/HD? My new low seat came with a little ECM Spacer Block. I would assume that meant they knew of a potential problem. The seats use the same plastic pan, but with less foam material to work with, the low seat's pan tends to bend or flex more. | ||
| Buewulf |
The low seat was given to me by a former Uly rider, but it is a factory item. I bought my bike used with the original gigantor seat on it, but there was already a spacer as you described on the foremost ECM bolt, so the previous owner may have had a low seat at some point. The seat was rubbing the aft connector (as well as the spacer). Their reasoning is that the out-of-warranty seat failed, not the ECM. That is their story, and they are sticking to it. Apparently, this is the latest H-D position, so others may have difficulty getting their ECMs replaced under the emmissions warranty in the future. In any event, it is not so expensive an item that I am going to waste a few hours on the phone trying to get someone of authority to reverse the decision. Bruce is going to hook it up to his bike and hopefully confirm one way or the other whether the ECM is truly toast or not. | ||
| Buewulf |
Well, Bruce was kind enough to run my ECM through some rigorous testing... and found absolutely nothing wrong with it. So Rays gut instinct was apparently correct, and an issue other than the ECM is causing my problems. I am just quite surprised since messing with the ECM got me repeatable results that were exactly like the symptoms I was experiencing, and that was the ONLY thing that got any type of reaction from the bike. I just don't know where to go from here. I am going to replace the BAS when I get the ECM back, but I am out of options after that. If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know. I have already missed one planned ride to the mountains due to this, a trip to the Twisted Sisters this weekend, and I may miss another planned ride on the TAT over Thanksgiving if I can't get this resolved. If that happens, I'll probably kick the Uly to the curb and buy something I can count on. Sorry. Just getting frustrated. | ||
| Dirt |
You might want to check the engine temp sensor. Your symptoms are nearly identical to what I experienced with a bad temp sensor on my S3. Bike would run good for the first 25 miles and then all hell would beak loose for the next 25, then back to normal again. It never registered an error code, but the problem slowly worsened over a period of a week or so. It finally got to the point of backfiring and refusing to hold at idle. I could not even ride it out of my driveway. The problem is fairly common on the tubers, not sure about the XB's. Worth a look though. Good luck. | ||
| Buewulf |
Thanks, Dirt. That engine temp sensor is a very good lead. When I searched for issues concerning that part, I found several posts that described similar issues to what I am facing. Still don't know why I can get the bike to act up by dinking with the ECM, but I'll live with a few ghosts in the machine so long as I can get it running. | ||
| Testcase |
I am having the EXACT same problem with my Uly! It's in the dealer shop right now. First they checked the ECM and added a shim to keep the seat from rubbing. Then they changed the fuel filter, saying that it was pretty sludgy. Problem happened coming OUT of the dealer and the shop mgr was able to jump on it and ride it out with it happening. Seems they hadn't noticed it before as it only manifests above 5K on the tach. They've had it a couple weeks now since and... well, we'll see.  | ||
| Ejbeert |
just spit balling here is it possible that the connector or the pins in the ecm or connector loose or dirty. New location that you mounted it in try another location Hold the ecm steady move the wire loom. Temporarily remount the ecm in its factory position move the wire loom with the bike running and then bike off ignition on |
