| Author | Message | ||
     Johnnylunchbox |
Nick just saw your profile... that is a beautiful blue S3, and you got the deep bags to boot. Nice!!!! | ||
| Naustin |
Thanks... I LOVE the bike, and so does my wife. It will be pulling a lot of 2-up duty. ;D Nick | ||
| Tunes |
My S3T performs the way most of you are describing your bikes. Great all the time except at low rpm. Noisey engine. I have 22K miles and I just had the 20K service performed. Buell Race Kit installed. I was one of the unlucky owners who's EFI was not working properly when I picked up my new bike. Bad Engine Temp Sensor and TPS. I was one of the lucky ones who's bike was tuned by two Buell technicians who were flown out from corp. hdqtrs. While they were here, they taught the Manchester tech's how to tune EFI Buells. Their job at Buell was to dyno tune engines and write the maps. I was also lucky enough to be present when all this tuning on my bike was going on. They were still a small co. at the time but very serious about customer satisfaction. Count me in. Riding the bike at 2750 or under will cause the engine to buck/stumble a bit here and there... but the engine was not designed to run there. Run the engine closer to 3K and above and it will love you and you will continue to love your S3. Shortly after I bought my '99, I think it was the same year or maybe 2K, I had a chance to ride with "Eric" on an official Buell group ride up the Kancamangus Hwy in NH. He was riding a demo S3 and I was directly behind him. I had several occasions to chat with him during stops and I questioned him on the proper way to run the engine.. hence my reason for the comments. I was very new to Buells at the time. I was coming off a couple of HD's. I think your better off coming off an IL4 type bike for better compatibility. Most HD riders are used to running at low rpm... which is where the EFI Buell should not be... and even though I have owned the bike since new, I'm still tying to get the hang of NOT running at low rpm. | ||
| Naustin |
Tunes - You bring up the thought I was having yesterday... Maybe this is just the way it is and there's nothing wrong with it... I'm just anal and want to make sure everything is up to par...  (Message edited by naustin on August 21, 2006) | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
I'm new to Buells this year, but FWIW I agree with Tunes- either pull in the clutch and downshift, pull in the clutch and come to a stop (if that is what you are doing), or increase your revs. These aren't cruisers and there is no reason to run them down that low. That said, I do it occasionally- a steady hand and smooth input will let you get away with it most of the time, but if it starts bucking I do one of the above... | ||
| Tunes |
My bike ran so bad when I picked it up compared to after the techs repaired/tuned it... it took some getting used to... and still does. (I'm still a Harley rider at heart.) I've had the Temp Sensor go on me twice, the Speedo Sensor, the Tip-over Sensor, and the O2 Sensor. I've felt all sorts of goings on... but I know when it's right and that's more important. This bike has performed beautifully for many miles, makes me smile when I ride it, and not stranded me. What more could you ask? All I gotta do is keep the revs up!  | ||
| Naustin |
Update: Tonight the Miss came back. Right in the 2900 - 3000 RPM range coming off the 02 sensor and onto the map on hard accelaration. This was intermittent and did not manifest until the bike was good and hot. The slip-fit connection where the pro series joins the collector shows some soot - so I konw it has an exhaust leak at that point. Intake seals are also suspect. Have not replace the o2 sensor yet either. Ironically the low rpm, throttle closed surging seemed less apparant. But I was getting used to keeping the revs up too so I may simply have not been duplicating the circumstances as often. The decel 'burbling' is still there too from 3000 rpm and down. Almost like the bike is gargling. I'm sure this is the intake/exhaust leak. But the stumble/miss at 2900-3000 rpm has me more concerned... (Message edited by naustin on August 25, 2006) | ||
| Naustin |
Update: I dropped the bike off at the dealer. They told me that the last time I had it in they discovered some tom foolery in the air box, and now they think that might be the problem. The previous owner installed a K&N in the airbox and zip tied the IAT sensor to one of the breather tubes. There were also some other changes made I gather. I asked them to give me an idea what it'll cost to put the airbox back to stock. Hopefully that cures the problem. The Tech did not feel the intake seals were bad... | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
Good deal Naustin. Keep us informed. | ||
| Naustin |
Just got the bike back from the dealer. I haven't had a chance to ride it any distance yet, just basically from the dealer back to work which is only about 2 miles. They completely rebuilt the airbox back to stock. It might be a little better (maybe), but it still does buck and burble on decel. I still have not had a chance to RTV my exhaust header at the connection to the muffler, but I'll hopefully get that done this weekend finally. And I will probably end up replacing the O2 sensor too. This is really frustrating. It doesn't seem real critical, but it bugs the hell out of me. The dealer is no help. I've had it in to them twice and both times when they give it back to me they tell me it runs great and act like it is 100%, but it doesn't seem any better at all to me. Maybe what I am noticing is normal - but I hope not. I'm headed out now to take it for a long ride to make sure the AFV is reset and see if it misses at all when it gets hot and I get on the gas. (Message edited by naustin on September 08, 2006) | ||
| Bookyoh |
Naustin: I forgot about this discussion so I went back and read your earlier symptoms. I have an '01 S3T and '00 M2. A couple of things to think about from what you described a few weeks ago. 1. Your bike sat for 2 years. My S3T only had 1950 miles on it when I bought it in Dec 2005 so it spent most of its life not being ridden. I was getting a little stumble from 2500 - 3000 rpm in 1st or 2nd gear. I have run a number of different fuel system cleaners through it for the first 2000 or so miles; sometimes in pretty high concentrations. A couple of times the bike really ran like crap because I had so much of the stuff in the gas. The last one I tried I got at Autozone and I think it was called TC3. I think it actually did help because the stumble is gone. 2. Another thing you are describing as burble sounds like some popping and roughness on decel. In my experience, this seems to be a common thing with an open exhaust. Between my two bikes, I have run stock muffler, modified opened up stock muffler, totally gutted stock muffler, and Wileyco muffler. Open (loud) exhausts tend to pop on decel. On the M2, I have fiddled with the air screw and pilot jet but it still pops some. I have high temperature RTV'd the exhaust flange too. If what you are hearing is popping you can probably get rid of it with a stock muffler. Listen to other bikes on the road with open exhausts and you will often hear them popping on decel. 3. Don't expect any type of smooth running below 2500 RPM so don't run it there. I bought my M2 new and the absolute worst time I ever had riding it was during the recommended break-in miles. Staying below 2500RPM for the first 50 miles and below 3000 for the next 450. Good luck. I hope you get this sorted out. Mark | ||
| Naustin |
Thanks for the reply. Let me try to clarify. The bike is smooth as silk if I'm accelerating off idle from 1,000 RPM up to 3,000. It is not rough at all - it pulls strong and smoothly. However, this is only if I am on the gas. If I close the throttle, the bike will not coast smoothly and "bucks". The Blast used to do this if I coasted the RPMs down below normal idle speeds - it would power pulse and lug. That's the best description I can muster. Its not just a sound. The bike literally lurches when coasting with the throttle closed, but will accelerate smoothly and easily from the same RPM. I don't expect that behaviour from the S3 at 2,500 rpm which is why I think there is some problem. I believe the "burble" I mentioned is a separate issue from the "lurching" and not really full -fledged exhaust popping - a symptom of a leak rather than a characteristic of an open exhaust?... I had a Bub on my blast and before I got it jetted properly, it would pop on decel. The S3 is not doing that. Its almost like a purring cat sound - roll your tongue - "Ruffles have Rrrrrridges". I did have a small exhaust leak at the slip joint and I applied RTV sealant this weekend, so that part of it may be solved - but I haven't ridden the bike since doing the RTV yet. It was low 50 degrees and raining here all weekend and after I did the RTV, I detailed the bike and polished the wheels, so I didn't want to take it out in the crap. I have run a bottle of Techron through it with the last tank of fuel too. I did notice some mid-range improvement and it pulls stronger, but the fuel system cleaner did not impact the "lurching". I tried testing the intake seals with Carb Cleaner and did not notice any change in idle. I have strong suspecions of the o2 sensor and I'll probably replace it. If that isn't the problem, At least I will have eliminated it as a cause. Maybe its normal for a fuel injected Thunderstorm to get the 'dry heaves' when you coast it with the throttle closed/clutch out in the bottom half of the RPM range, but I doubt it. The only thing the pisses me off is that my dealer won't acknowledge the issue and acts like the bike is 100%. (Message edited by naustin on September 11, 2006) | ||
| Bookyoh |
I hope the O2 sensor helps. I am still a little suspicious about the fuel side. How well does it accelerate in first and second at very light throttle? Is there some surging. Can you hold it pretty steady at low speed <3000 RPM in first and second? Just for the heck of it, you might want to try setting your idle RPM higher a lot higher and see if the decel behavior changes. If you actually felt a difference after running some fuel system cleaner through it I am still suspicious of the injectors and the bike sitting for 2 years. Mark | ||
| Naustin |
It accelerates smooth like butter in 1st and second from just off idle to anything you please. It will run steady in 2nd at <3,000 RPM too - no problem as long as I'm in the throttle, even if only barely. The bike is "touchy" at 2,900 steady in second. I don't know how else to describe it. It isn't missing or sputtering, but it has some character - a bit of a "snort". So, while it runs steady under 3,000 rpm smoothly, the throttle is extremely sensitive and that's when my exhaust leak/burble was most apparent as well. (Still need to test ride to see if that has been fixed or changed any.) How much higher should I set the idle? It idles at just over 1,000 now. I think 1060 is ideal. But I read somewhere that the computer will compensate for the manual idle adjustment?? Does the TPS need to be reset again if I mess with the Idle adjuster? I'll check the KV I guess.... | ||
| Bookyoh |
What happens if you just hold your speed steady in first/second below 3000 RPM? Does it surge? Mine used to but has improved significantly after running a few tanks of fuel system cleaner in high concentrations. I would suggest you set it to 1500 rpm and see how the decel fells. It should feel very different but I am most interested to know if the "lurching" disappears. If so, you may want to try some different settings within the min/max specification limits. Adjusting your idle speed is a manual setting and the ECM will not compensate by trying to raise it or lower it to some pre determined value. Also, when they do a TPS reset, they screw it out far enough to be sure the throttle is resting at it's zero most point. Mark | ||
| Naustin |
I'll pay close attention when I ride it tonight. I would describe it as being smooth at 2,500 in 2nd if I hold it steady with no surging, except that the throttle is sooo touchy that bumps cause me to change the throttle input. I'll pay close attention to it tonight on some real smooth road and see if I can notice anything. I'll try the idle adjustment and see if that makes a difference, and if so, what. The reason I suspect the o2 sensor is that i'm only having a problem under 3Ks and that's when the o2 sensor controls the mixture. Above 3K its set by the Map, right? If the o2 sensor is fouled from sitting for two years, it may just be slightly out of spec - not completely dead, which could explain the symptoms?... | ||
| Naustin |
WEll I rode it tonight for a good hour. The lurching didn't seem as bad. Its still there, but it was noticibly less intrusive and was almost ignorable. However, once it was good and hot, I gave it some throttle and the bike lost power and studdered a little, then recovered. After that, I took it out on the freeway for a long run at 75. Then on a secondary back road, and asked it for full throttle acceleration comming off an intersection. In 2nd around 4K, the bike missed badly. As though hitting the rev limiter for 4 beats, and then it pulled hard through the rest of 2nd, 3rd and 4th. I went home and adjusted the idle up to 1,500rpm. When for just a short ride and the lurching was gone. The bike would coast down smoothly to 2,000 rpm and then barely decelerate at all. It would idle down the road maintaining 30mph in 2nd with no throttle input at all. IF I then pulled in the clutch, the idle would slowly drop to 1500. I don't know what any of that means. So I went home, adjusted the idle back to 1050, and put it away.  (Message edited by naustin on September 11, 2006) (Message edited by naustin on September 11, 2006) | ||
| Bookyoh |
Perhaps others have some experience here. My bike behaved a little like you are describing when I put in a over half a bottle of Techron (on purpose because I wanted the highest concentration I thought I could live with). Really ran like crap at low throttle position but idled OK. I ran the tank all the way down, filled it with almost 5 gallons, and the hesitation was gone. Other things that come to mind: 1. Bad or fouled spark plug. Are you using those split fires? I didn't like them. 2. Loose or bad plug wire. 3. Water in the gas. The test with the high idle speed has me doubting it is an O2 sensor thing. Same with the hesitation. I have no experience with symptoms of a bad or loose head temperature sensor but others do. At this point, and as long as the bike is safe to ride, I would recommend you ride it for two or three tanks of gas and just see what happens. If that bike truly sat for 2 years I am still suspicious of fuel system varnish deposits. Mark | ||
| Naustin |
Plugs are new, The dealer said the same thing about the Buell branded plugs (I think they are the split-fires?) that were in it orginally. I'll inspect the wires, and I'm taking it out of town this weekend so I'll be running lots of fuel though it. Thanks for the help. I'll update if there are any changes next week. | ||
| Oldog |
Lurching: slack in FDB and PC? I run the primary chain to the loose side of the range and the belt "scarry loose" much better coasting and crusing, the X1 fi is the same. belt and chain set a little loose seem to ease this problem. the temp sensor going off makes it run bad every where, usualy way way rich. it will randomly come and go as it fails. O2 does not effect low ranges, are you snapping the throttle open? and getting the stumble? fuel pressure been tested? timing checked? filter been replaced? injectors cleaned or replaced? o2 and temp sensors unless intermitting connections are the issue are easy to spot. | ||
| Naustin |
Yes the stumble occurs when snapping the throttle open. But not all the time. I've had the bike in to the dealer twice since I just bought it. It ran like this when I bought it and they said they'd make it right. Anyway, I don't think they tested anything. I doubt they checked the timing. They said the day I bought it that it needs to have fuel system cleaner run though it because it sat a long time and that I should just ride it alot until it gets better. I brought it in and made them change the oil, and primary fluid. They said they did both of those things - but I doubt it... They did change the plugs. No improvement. The second time when I took it back, they said it was probably running bad because of the airbox mods, and charged me $140 to rebuild it back to stock. That made some but very little difference. I asked them about the exhaust leak, and they said, "Yeah it'll do that until it gets carbon'd-up -- don't worry about it." I don't think they really want to help me... They don't have a single buell on their show floor and the only guy that rides one in the whole shop is the owner's kid. I didn't really understand your last statment there Olddog. Thanks for trying to help. | ||
| Naustin |
Update - Had another BWBer ride the bike (Thanks Brad! (Blumz2)). He was able to confirm that I'm not hallucinating, and that the "burble" is not "popping" or "backfiring". The bike didn't do the hesitation or miss for him. But, it did it to me on the way there, on a freeway entrance ramp at about 4K RPM when I was trying to get in front of a Semi. Lost power, hesitate stutter - and then it all came back and the bike took off like a scalded cat. The hesitation/miss is very intermittent. Took the back back to the dealer... http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=47623&post=743932#POS T743932 I'll update this again when I get it back. Nick | ||
| Naustin |
Update Got the bike back from the dealer - Actually I took it back because of their incompetence. Anyway, I got the VDSTS software in the mail this morning from Henrik Thanks!!, and at noon I was able to successfully install and connect to the bike. I didn't have time to do the procedure and I was still wearing work clothes, so all I had time to do was set up the software and verify that I could interface with the ECM. I did notice however that with the Idle screw backed all the way off, the TPS was reading .7 degrees rather than zero. I have a feeling I'll have good news later tonight... (Message edited by naustin on October 02, 2006) | ||
| Naustin |
Update OK, well my initial conclusion was not correct. The TPS reading was .7 with the idle screw all the way backed off. But, when I snapped the throttle closed it dropped to .2-.3, and forcing the throttle closed so that it "sticks" brought the TPS reading to 0. I went ahead and reset it, as well as the AFV anyway. I noticed a couple of things. First, following the TPS and AFV reset, I let the bike warm up to 220 degrees, and set the idle. At 220 degrees, I had to turn the TPS from 5.1 up to 6.0 to get 1050 idle speed. Well, actually the idle jumps around from 980 to 1060, but that’s as close as I could get. Then I went for a ride. After a few minutes, the idle speed increased quite a bit. I pulled over and adjusted back down to the correct range. The low speed behavior was unchanged once I set the hot idle back to normal, though it had initially seems somewhat better when the idle was too high. When I got home, I plugged it back in to the VDSTS and found the TPS was at 5.3 and the engine temp was 320. I let the bike cool off to 220 and fired it up and it idled at around 900 rpm. Also, during my ride, the 4.5K RPM hesitation was still there and I was able to reproduce it several times on hard acceleration. Rolling slowly through that RPM range produces no noticeable problem. Only on hard acceleration. Something I noticed while I was running the bike and monitoring all the data was the ECM/02 reading. While the bike was idling, it was sitting at .50 and then it slowing started to drop and got down to .47. Then I held the throttle at 2500 RPM and the O2 reading was jumping all over the place from .25 up to .85 down to .34 up to .60 etc. It fluctuated several times per second and was very erratic. After that I let the bike idle again and the erratic readings on the 02 sensor continued and it jumped from .07 all the way to .82 and everything in between. The bike seemed to be idling normally while it was doing this. SO Is it a reasonable assumption that the O2 sensor is bad? What about that engine temp and idle speed situation - is that normal?? Thanks anybody!! Nick (Message edited by naustin on October 02, 2006) | ||
| Al_lighton |
It is PERFECTLY normal. It is the way the Buell ECM works. Read this: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/17143/230583.html?1159469404 That should explain why you see the O2 voltage fluctuating. The TPS should read 0 when the throttle plate is gently forced closed. You can use the TPS readings to get the idle in the ballpark after doing a reset, but after that, use only the warmed up engine idle speed to set the TP and disregard the actual TP values. 1050 is the "right" value, but many have had to set it slightly lower in order not to have idle hanging issues when the engine is hot. Idling below 900 is not a great idea, though, and many bikes will idle too slow during warmup if it is set too low to stop the idle hanging. ON my carbed buell, I'm always screwing with the idle adjustment, I bring it up a bit when it's cold, turn it down a bit when warm. But the adjuster is plenty easy to get to with my right hand. I don't like the XB idle adjust location at all, I wish it was as easy to adjust by hand as on my carbed S1W. | ||
| Naustin |
So - accepting that the o2 sensor is normal, the Temp sensor is probably fine, and the bikes idle is normal - the only remaining cause of the 4.5K rpm hesitation must be the Timing? I read that the timing advance takes a big jump at 4,500 rpm and that one should retard the static timing a few degrees to fix the problems in that range. See Davo's post here: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=32777&post=688154#POST688154 Is that what I should do next? (Message edited by naustin on October 03, 2006) | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Nick, I've still got the temp sensor if you want to try it. Brad | ||
| Naustin |
The VDSTS software showed the voltage output of the engine temp sensor to increase and decrease linearly, and it was within spec, I really don't think that's the problem at this point as it appeared to be operating normally- but who knows? I ordered a service manual today and am planning to verify the static timing next before I start throwing parts at it. There are a large number of complaints around the board from all different years on all different models about a mysterious 4K RPM Hiccup/Hesitation/Miss/Hole - whatever you want to call it. I've waded through about a dozen of them and none of these threads contain a solution or pattern that I have been able to find - other than the RACE ECM. I am starting to wonder if the RACE ECM is simply not compatible with anything other than the RACE exhaust, intake and header. Maybe I need to add or remove discs from my Pro-Series Supertrapp, or just put the bike back to stock. I thought the bike was stock when I bought it and would never have put the Race ECM in it in the first place. It pisses me off that this frickin "upgrade" is the only common denominator among those with the 4K RPM Miss. One of the threads was talking about "POT"s in reference to dyno tuning. Whats this all about? (Message edited by naustin on October 03, 2006) | ||
| Raceautobody |
Naustin, My X1 has the race ecm and the buell pro-series supertrapp with a k&n air filter and I do not have the hesitation you describe. I have 12 discs in the supertrapp and I always keep it packed. If you do set static timing work slow and be exact. Use this http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=32777&post=441639#POS T441639 It does work to let you set static timing on our FI tubers. Al | ||
| Raceautobody |
Oh one more thing , The only time my X1 had a hesitation at that high of rpm is when the TPS was going bad. To check it I used a DMM but that was before I got the VDSTS so now when ever I have my bike hooked up I watch voltage of the tps as i open the throttle with the engine stopped and the ignition on. 0.5- 1.5 volts closed throttle greater than 4 volts wide open throttle. Turn throttle gradually and watch. the voltage should change gradually without spikes or drops in voltage. |
