| Author | Message | ||
     Jim_Witt |
Hummm ... Guess I'll answer my own question. Looks like you'll have to have a bank account like Courts and a machine shop to afford the dual-carb setup. Or contract out the machinine work to someone in China. Let's see US @ $6000.00 a pop ÷ 16 = about $375.00 in China. Tack on import fees and markup ... about $1,000.00 a set. If you find a supplier, let me know. S'later, -JW:>) | ||
| Sem1 |
Jim: Have you seen the web page about the dual-carb S2? The people behind it might be able to help. Cheers, Semi | ||
| Blake |
Don't XR heads fit Buells? Give Brain Nallin a ping at nascar@shreve.net , he might be able to help. | ||
| Loki |
Jim, Do you want the full images of what I posted earlier. These were of Trip Nobles race bike with a carb hanging on both sides. Looks like no real problem to duplicate the manifolds. Heck Hal's might even start coughing some up if there were to be a demand for them. Loki | ||
| Jim_Witt |
Semi asked: Have you seen the web page about the dual-carb S2? The people behind it might be able to help. Cheers, Yep, I've been talking via e-mail to Doug Lofgren about the adventure they've went through. As a matter of fact, he somewhere lurking. <g> Thanks, -JW:>) | ||
| Jim_Witt |
Brian asked: Do you want the full images of what I posted earlier? Sure, Don't .ZIP them all together. If they're huge, like 3 megs each, then my inbound mailbox at Yahoo won't accept anything that large in my inbound. I'm not sure what the limits are with Yahoo inbound wise. You can try; james-witt@cox.net also. I'm not sure of the inbound filesize that COX accepts after their migration ... probably 6 megs, dunno. Thanks, -JW:>) | ||
| Jim_Witt |
Blake suggested: Give Brain Nallin a ping ...... Cheers, Did that. -JW:>) | ||
| Loki |
JW, will split them up in three seperate echoes to you tomorrow afternoon. Loki | ||
| Cal |
The dual carb headed S2 that every one has seen at dyno shootouts belongs to Mike Roland. he also did the design work on them and I think Shumaker did the production. If you have not heard of Mike Roland he is a top fuel Harley racer and also owns two Buells. He did the work on my top end and i was very impressed. His buisness name is Roland Racing it is located in Spring Park MN. I can't remember his email address but if you email me at pbr1893@aol I can give you his home phone. Ben "Cal" Herheim | ||
| Jim_Witt |
Cal, Mike Rolands e-mail address is listed on Doug Lofgren website. Just so everyone doesn't flood his e-mail with the same questions, Mike e-mailed me the following information about his dual-carb setup ...... Mike rode the Buell all summer without a problem. The next plan is to put dual throttle body fuel injection on the bike. He is waiting for some parts from some of his sponsors on this project. We will be posting progress as it happens on the website. Cheers, -JW:>) | ||
| Kahuna |
Ok, here I go again  I'm still trying to find some solution for the stock air box on my X1. If I understand correctly, the X1 & the S3T seem to share the same specs? Why Could I not install the S3T pro-series air cleaner (914422-99Y) on my X1?  | ||
| Artful |
Also, the hypercharger will fit and not bang your knees if your not to tall. Mine was modified by ASB to use on my DDFI 2000 S3. Works and looks great. Art..... | ||
| Ccryder |
Kahuna: You can instal that S3 airbox. Are you wanting performance or looks? If you want both then you also need to spend about $260 more on the CF tank accents from ASB. If you can tolerate the original airbox and scoop on your X-1 you can easily modify your current set up and get the same results (IMHO). The airbox mods are pretty straight and simple just take a look here: Air Box Mods If you need any more details give me a shout. Neil S. | ||
| Kahuna |
Thanks Neil, I appreciate your help! I'm definitely looking for both, with a slight emphasis on looks (cause i hate the stock box). I've been doing research most of the day and now it seems like a toss between the S3 pro-series cleaner and the kuryakyn hypercharger. Neither mention that it fits the X1? I've already emailed kuryakyn for more info, and was wondering about the S3 kit. When you say the S3 kit fits, do I need any adapters or is it a straight forward procedure? Do you have any experience with the hypercharger? Is that straight forward too? Many thanks again, -Rob | ||
| Aaron |
NOKK (original equipment in my '99 M2) NOKV (I believe this needle is original equipment in later M2's) N65C ('88 XLH 1200 Sportster needle, very popular replacement)  The results had a fair amount of variation, I did my best to pick a result for each needle that was representative of the average result. All of these results were taken with the same main jet, and within a very short period of time between each other. Notice that the carb always goes lean when the throttle is first opened, then fattens up as the rpm's come up, eventually ending up too fat, then it comes back a bit. Changing the main jet (which I did a bunch of) basically moves the whole line up or down without really changing it's shape. My general impression is that the needles aren't terribly far apart. However, the NOKK line is enough flatter than the others that it's probably the needle I would reccommend. I particularly like how it richens up faster than the others. Carlos, you were right! | ||
| Sem1 |
Aaron: Do you have any graphs to show the effect of shimming the needles? Cheers, Semi | ||
| Blake |
Aaron, I wonder if those curves would diverge more if you ran the tests at sea level? In any case, it looks like the conventional wisdom of using the NC65 is out the window. Thanks for running and reporting those tests! | ||
| Aaron |
Semi ... no, I didn't try shimming it. I would think (?) that shimming it would fatten it more on the bottom end and less on top, where the needle has less effect. But I don't really know. Actually, one of my big surprises from this testing is how the needle is still doing something at high rpm. That's almost got to be due to the extra length of the N65C. The NOKV is longer than the NOKK as well (but not as long as the N65C). Really the problem is that the curve isn't flat. Seems like it should be fatter from the get go, then leaner than it is in the 4400rpm range. The NOKK seems like it's better than the others for flatness. I guess there's something to be said for injection, huh? If only they gave us all the knobs to turn I'd probably go that route. I just can't stand the thought of having fewer adjustments to tweak. Blake, I'm curious, why do you think sea level would make them diverge more? Wouldn't it just scale? | ||
| Jmartz |
AAron: What significance do the lower curves have if the the upper curves were all the same? Emissions and carbon accumulation for the needles that run richer? Does your set up measure total hydrocarbons? | ||
| Aaron |
Jose, if I understand your question, you're asking what the hell does it matter which needle you're using if the power curves are overlaying each other? I agree. Really, like I said, the needles are all pretty close to each other. No, just a/f ratio. Man that thing saves a lot of time. No more guessing which way to move the jetting. Just wish it'd work with race gas. | ||
| Jmartz |
You are a good scientist Aaron. | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
From my playing w/ my a/f gauge...shimming the needle just shifts the scope of the needle up the rpm range. Remember, we're talking slopes on the effects of the various fuel circuits and by shimming the needle (and differnt springs too) you can alter when and how the needle comes into play. FWIW#2, The most affect I noticed from needles, shmming, and springs was all in the driveability areas (mostly to provide clean, smooth circuit transitions and to eliminate tip-in pinging)...this assumes proper main and idle jets. Hey Aaron...you ever try using manifold pressure as an indicator of performance on the dyno??? I remember as a kid, being taught to use manifold pressure in tuning carbs on cars (not just balancing carbs, but in actually tuning - don't remember all the details, but manifold pressure was suppossed to be directly correlated to rich/lean conditions...anyone know?? My memory isn't what it was on this subject). Don't really know how effective (say over a seat of the pants feel) it really was as we never dyno'd anything...if it really works, might be an alternative when using race gas. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Bigun283 |
Need some suggestions: I recently installed andrews n-6 cams in my 98 s1w. Before I installed those I put on a force streetfighter exhaust, and noticed the engine chugging at 3,000 when full throttle. Now the cams are in and the engine chugs worse than ever. The service tech could not get it out. He showed me the dyno chart and at 3,000 my air fuel ratio goes extremely rich until around 3600. What could be wrong? | ||
| Aaron |
An exhaust system can certainly cause that. Did it start doing that when the exhaust system was put on? Basically what can happen is air passes through the carb on the intake cycle, picking up gas. Then the intake valve closes and this gas laden air hangs in the intake manifold for a second. During the overlap, as the exhaust valve closes the intake starts to open and there's a short period of time when both valves are open. What you want at that moment is a vacuum in the chamber, caused by the exhaust system, to pull that intke charge in. But if the exhaust is instead creating pressure right then, it shoves the charge back out the carb. Then as the exhaust valve closes and the piston goes down, it draws it back through the carb again. So you end up with a fuel charge that's passed through the carb 3 times (in, out, in) and it picks up fuel each time and voila, a massive rich spot. If it's an exhaust system induced reversion wave, those cams would certainly aggravate it, since they have more overlap than the originals. | ||
| Aaron |
Y'know, that brings up a good point about these air/fuel curves posted above. The shape of that curve is gonna vary depending on the exhaust system. A needle that's right for one bike won't necessarily be right for another bike with a different exhaust and/or cams. That data was taken with a stock M2 by the way ... stock everything, including muffler and cams. Hmm, wonder if the stock exhaust has a little reversion going on at 4400rpm? | ||
| Spike |
Aaron, It seems you get to spend a fair amount of time on the dyno. You said you did a lot of main jet swapping, any chance you'll share with us which one you decided on? While I'm at it, what is your current jetting setup? Also, what is the elevation where you are located? TIA. Spike '99 Cyclone | ||
| Aaron |
Spike: I normally run a Mikuni, and it's optimum jet varies from about a 152.5 up to a 160, depending on the day. CV's up here (5300') generally want something in the 175 to 185 range. I'm always a little leary of jetting on the dyno, wondering what it changes to when the bike is moving. It's better to err on the fat side IMO. | ||
| Aaron |
 Read about this test result here | ||
| Jmartz |
Aaron: It will be interesting to see the results of the test above with a modified motor that can admit more air than a stocker. This "Mikuni 42" is deceiving beacuse the it has the same spigot opening as the CV40. I my bike the stock manifold was very poorly matched to the intake ports at the heads. When I changed it along with the carb (to a CV44) the bike made more power. Having violated a cardinal rule of science I will never know which of the two is the correcting factor. I love the performance of this new carb/manifold during acceleration but I am paying with harder starts, explosions out the pipe and ocassional hesitation during cruising at midrange rpm (3-4 K). | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Curious as I too have a CV44 carb & manifold on my otherwise stock motored X1. - Hard starts? why would this be attributed to an intake setup? - explosions out the pipe? Sounds more like jetting than a intake setup? - hesitation in midrange, maybe but sounds more like jetting. Other than a seat of the pants feeling of power increase (glad you feel it too, makes me more sure) then only downside I've had has been some fluffieness between 2-3k rpm, which is common on an overcarbed setup...but after lots of experimenting w/ jets/needles/slides/springs it's 95% gone. The CV44 was a tricky beast to get setup correctly...especially as there was no one else's experiences to pull similar data. Neil Garretson X0.5 |
