G oog le BadWeB | Login/out | Topics | Search | Custodians | Register | Edit Profile

Buell Forum » XBoard » Buell XBoard Archives » Archive through August 18, 2005 » VROD born on Buell drafting tables? « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Indy_bueller
Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 09:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Court said once in another thread something to the effect that the VROD began life at Buell. Can anyone elaborate on that?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Kootenay
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 01:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I saw an interesting documentary on the development of the V-Rod, and I don't remember any mention of Buell at all...for what it's worth...

Seemed, though, that there was a lot of "back and forth" between Willie G. and the engineering department--Mr. Davidson wanted it to look a certain way, and the engineers had to pull a few rabbits out of their hats to make everything fit and work.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

1313
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 12:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Early in the P4 project (V-Rod to everyone outside H-D), a VR1000 engine was installed in (if memory serves me correctly) a Softail Custom at Buell, kind of as a proof of concept bike.

1313
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Steve_a
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 02:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The VR and the V-Rod projects are almost completely unrelated. The V-Rod was Porsche's design of an engine with similar specifications and configuration as the VR, but intended for series production and with no common components. What became the V-Rod started as a Buell-only project according to Buell CEO Flickinger at the recent homecoming dinner. He was reported to have said that the new engine was ruined for Buell when it became a joint project. I can surmise from conversations with Willie G. that Harley styling had something to do with that; they dictated a lot of the V-Rod's engine design.

There was early on a VR installed in a Softail. According to Willie G., it was the example for Harley Styling of what not to do for the V-Rod.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Whodom
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 02:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Hmmm, Court says Erik's been putting in 75 hour weeks at work and he had very little to do with the XB12X. Hmmm.....
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Indy_bueller
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 06:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Hmmmm.....

1. Erik is working 75 hour weeks.

2. Little/nothing to do with XB12X.

3. Firebolt didn't get the "stretch" mods that the Lightning did.

New 'Bolt for '07? Or mebbe something completely different? Mebbe I'm just wishful thinking?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Coyote_xb12s
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 06:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Was the engine in the HD VR1000 just as big in overall dimension as the VRod motor? Maybe that particular engine could be a good choice for a Firebolt RR model?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Indy_bueller
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 06:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

From what I've heard, Buell tried the VROD motor with an XB frame and it didn't work well. I have no idea where you would put the radiator anyway.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dave
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 07:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Bast P3
VRod P4

DAve
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fullpower
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 07:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

repeat after me " the v-rod is an overweight water-cooled pig"
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

1badbuell
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 09:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

" the v-rod is an overweight water-cooled pig"

Sure but the Street Rod version...thats a fun overweight water cooled pig : )
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Phillyblast
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 09:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Dave,
I thought I was the only one that noticed that ; )
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Psychobueller
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 11:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Does anyone know what the VRSC engine weighs, versus the XB12 engine?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Davegess
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 11:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

more
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Court
Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 04:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Lots
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rocketman
Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 05:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Not if it were air cooled!

Rocket
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Blitzen
Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 11:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

" the v-rod is an overweight water-cooled pig" That handles like a school bus in the corners! If it dosn't slide out from under you that is.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Buell12hundo
Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 01:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

seen the new lightning long and I think the troy boys might have some room for a new engine like the v rod or a smaller version the frame is big

or its the heat thats making me say this

(Message edited by buell12hundo on August 13, 2005)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Davefl
Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 02:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

If I understand correctly the main frame on the Lightning long is the same size as the Lightning not so long frame. It is the swingarm and the subframe that is different.

(Message edited by davefl on August 13, 2005)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Buell12hundo
Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 02:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

big as in wider not longer
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Davefl
Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 02:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

You are right sir, I did not catch that on the long. The big problem with putting in a water cooled engine in an XB is where do you put the radiator. You would still have that problem with a wider frame.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Davefl
Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 02:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Oh and It is wider for increased fuel capacity. The inside dimensions should be the same.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Joele
Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 01:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I've still got a chubby over the concept of getting a Rotax replacement to the push-rod.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Glitch
Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 08:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The big problem with putting in a water cooled engine in an XB is where do you put the radiator.
And the plumbing.
But the main problem is when you liquid cool a Buell, it's no longer a Buell.
Have not you read or asked what Erik thinks of liquid cooling?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Wyckedflesh
Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 10:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

If I understand correctly the main frame on the Lightning long is the same size as the Lightning not so long frame. It is the swingarm and the subframe that is different. There is a slight length difference as well. Not something you would notice with the bikes sitting side by side, but something you would notice in the tale of the tape.

The VROD engine is TOP heavy. The centerline for its weight distribution is higher than the XB engine. To get the same weight balance out of the VROD engine that you have with the XB engine, the bottom of the VROD motor would be about level with the bottom of the stock exhaust canister, then where would the exhaust go?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bomber
Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 10:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I don't think anyone in East Troy thinks badly about water cooling -- or 4 valves per head, or overhead cams, or any other tech, for that matter

if, and when, water colling is needed for some reason, it'll appear on buells (along with 4 valves per head, overhead cams, et al)

if I'm remembering correctly, the stated performance goals were met with a simpler, lighter mill with a lower parts count, all of which equals $$ that can either be used for other things (zoomier frames, better suspension, ZTL brakes), or NOT added to the MSRP --

sounds like a good plan to me!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dave
Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 07:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

So was VROD born on Buell drafting tables?

DAve
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sterfry
Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 10:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I would expect a V-Rod revolution engine to be heavier than a Buell engine since the transmission is integrated and it's a wet sump.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Speedy818
Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 11:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The problem with a V-Rod/Buell hybrid is that it goes completely against what Buell wants. Buell's all about usable powerband - lots of usable torque, low weight, etc. The V-Rod engine is none of those things. It was a Racing engine that was designed to have a very flat torque curve and thus a linear HP delivery to be flexible on a number of tracks. Long story short - they aren't running the engine for racing no more. Buell has no real reason for emissions to resign themselves to liquid cooling - they're already compliant for 2008.

All-in-all - I wouldn't expect any type of V-rod/Buell hybrid anytime soon.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Midknyte
Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 05:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

But the main problem is when you liquid cool a Buell, it's no longer a Buell.
Have not you read or asked what Erik thinks of liquid cooling?


Erik's stance has been that water cooling is not necessary.

He also recognises that there is a "potential" market for one nonetheless.
We might see one if that were ever to become a "profitable" market for one...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lightisright
Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 09:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I say forget the whole 4v heads, OHC stuff. Look at the Chevy V8's versus the Fords. Ford has issues with getting those big headed ohc engines to fit in engine bays (well Mustangs. The Chevy engine is super compact in comparison. Some metric cruisers have water cooled twins but still look big with all the fake cooling fins for (alleged) style. Take a slice of 2 cyl off a vettes LS2. Or how about what Porsche did with the race flat 6 aircooled engines when turbocharged in some later high hp race cars, water cooled heads. That'd take a much smaller rad yet still allow for more compression.

Just ramblin.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Firemanjim
Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 10:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Andrew,the V-Rod motor has nothing in common with the motor from the VR-1000 --two totally different animals.V-rod is designed for the street.VR-1000 was race only with no thought to EPA emmissons or noise regs,or drivability.If I remember correctly there are no interchangeable parts whatsoever.
And when I was at Buell a couple of years back they had a V-Rod as a test mule.It had all kinds of test ports and an exhaust system that said something along the lines of "off road use only".They caned it pretty well on our ride,too.I find that kinda interesting.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Speedy818
Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 09:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Actually Jim, as I have been told, the VRSC engine was based on the VR1000 engine - they're both 60 deg, water cooled, OHV, 4 valve engines - Harley teamed up with Porsche to create the streetable VRSC engine. Saying that the V-Rod motor has nothing in common with the VR1000 is like saying that the XB engine has nothing in common with the Ironhead engine. (Actually, XB vs. Ironhead is even more of a difference than VR1000 vs. VRSC).

But anyways my point is that the XB engine wheelies at the drop of a hat - can use all of the down-low power to pull itself around. The VRSC engine really requires you to have the RPM's quite high to pull that hard, just as you would on the track. The XB's are designed for the street. The VRSC's still have too much of the race bike heritage to catch on well with traditional owners. And so, as I put it, as soon as you put a VRSC engine into a "Buell", it no longer is a Buell as we know it.

JMHO
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Buellshyter
Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 09:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I watched a documentary on the V-Rod on Discovery and they claimed the V-Rod motor got it's start from the VR1000 engine. Apparently, they crated one up and shipped it off to Porsche as a starting point.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Thepup
Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 09:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Speedy,the Street Rod has 80ftlbs at 7000 RPM,thats not exactly high RPM's.Honda,Aprilla,Suzuki,and Ducati don't seem to do to bad with liquid cooled v-twins.I understand there are advantages the current XB engine has over the Revo,but that goes both ways.
« Previous Next »

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image

Username: Posting Information:
This is a public posting area. Enter your username and password if you have an account. Otherwise, enter your full name as your username and leave the password blank. Your e-mail address is optional.
Password:
E-mail:
Options: Post as "Anonymous" (Valid reason required. Abusers will be exposed. If unsure, ask.)
Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action:

Topics | Last Day | Tree View | Search | User List | Help/Instructions | Rules | Program Credits Administration