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Skifastbadly
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2011 - 11:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here's what my pistons look like....


two pistons
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Hughlysses
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2011 - 11:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mine looked almost exactly like that.
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Johnboy777
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2011 - 12:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey Skifastbadly

Is the left the rear - or vice versa?

John
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Skifastbadly
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2011 - 01:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

John,

I can't answer that, I didn't do the disassembly, but I sure wish I had. HD service took it apart, told me how much damage there was, and quoted me a price to fix which I passed on. Then they gave me a nice big bill for the time and brought the parts back in a box.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2011 - 01:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I haven't had time to do any further teardown on the bike yet; I've been trying to get my motorcycle gear/tool room straightened up as it's going to have to house all these take-off parts in an orderly fashion until I can put the Uly back together. I'm making good progress on that.

So far I've found three places that can repair my crank: Revtech, Johnson Engineering, and Darkhorse. Darkhorse says the 08 crank upgrade significantly improves reliability of the bearings that failed on mine and it would only run $25 more than repair of the stocker, so I'm heavily leaning that way.

Next major decision is the cylinders. HD doesn't sell just the pistons (only cylinder/piston/ring sets); aftermarket pistons are ~2/3 the cost of new OEM cylinder sets, and I may find my cylinders can't be over-bored enough to remove the scratches. The aftermarket 1250 barrels and pistons would be 1.5 to 2 times the cost of OEM cylinders. Seems like a lot of money to pay for 50cc, but there may be some improvement in quality of the parts as well.

I'm still watching ebay for used engines, and I did e-mail one motorcycle junkyard in SC who quoted me $2100 for an 06 Uly engine. That's in line with most of the ebay prices, but it still looks like I can do a better-than-stock rebuild on mine for about the same money.

Hopefully disassembly/engine removal will resume tomorrow. I'll post more photos as I proceed.
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Xbimmer
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2011 - 02:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Darkhorse says the 08 crank upgrade significantly improves reliability of the bearings that failed on mine and it would only run $25 more than repair of the stocker...
Pleading ignorance, is that only a bearing change? IIRC the rotor and oil pump drive changed also in '08. Good luck on your fix, has to be a bummer.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2011 - 02:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The 08 crank has a 1-1/2" diameter crankpin vs. 1-1/4" on pre-08 XB's, with larger bearings to suit. Just like increasing the size of the rear wheel bearings, they will withstand more load without failing. The 08-up engines do have a different oil pump and larger oil cooler, but they also have a higher redline RPM.

Apparently quite a few of these conversions have been done on 02-07 XB race bikes and are pretty well proven, so the old-style oil pump must be adequate even with the larger crankpin bearings.
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Xbimmer
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2011 - 03:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Guess I should've been more clear, what I meant to ask was whether your wormgear-drive oil pump will still work, and your alternator rotor also. IIRC those changed in '08, but maybe I'm wrong. Doesn't the '08-up primary gear/alternator fasten with a bolt instead of a nut? Still wondering and interested.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2011 - 06:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I know that the crank will handle the old-style oil pump drive gear Ok & that you have to install an 08 primary sprocket. Hopefully the 07 alternator rotor can be pressed on the 08 sprocket.
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Mnrider
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2011 - 08:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I had a crank bearing go on my 1985 Ski-doo MX snowmobile,that was a Rotax 2 stroke so all the bearing pieces went up and smashed the piston and the rod broke the cyl. sleeve.
Had it sleeved and the crank repaired and bored and new pistons.
I couple years later the other crank bearing went out so I had to do it again.
Two strokes are easier to overhaul so it wasn't too big of deal just $ for parts.
If they can do the 08 bearings and rods that would be a good upgrade.

Good luck,sounds like it will work out OK.
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Xbimmer
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2011 - 08:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OK Hugh, thanks!
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Teeps
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2011 - 01:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The larger main bearing sounds like a win/win if it's not cost prohibitive...
Any interference issues with the ignition reluctor built onto the '08 crank wheels?

So, just how many XB12s have had big end bearing failures?
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Hughlysses
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2011 - 04:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Apparently no problems with interference with putting the 08 crank in earlier cases; I'll try and find out all the details when I talk to Darkhorse on the phone.

We've had 3 guys (including me) mention in this thread that they had the same bearing failure. I found a thread on a Sportster forum that reported the same failure on a few ~2005 model Sportsters. I don't think it's a very common failure, but it doesn't seem to be unknown by any means either. Maybe this was the main driving reason behind the 08 crank upgrade. I'll be interested to see if Darkhorse has seen a lot of them.
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Skifastbadly
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2011 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Just to be perfectly clear I haven't yet done a bearing inspection so I can't be sure my engine puke was a bearing failure. The symptoms are a lot like Hugh's, but I'm not certain.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Haven't had any time to work on the bike since my last post, but I have done some additional research. I figured who better to ask about the 08 crank upgrade than Erik Buell Racing? Here's what they had to say:

quote:

Hugh,

The small crank pins are the first thing to wear out. Put in a big one and
it will really increase engine longevity and then whatever does wear out
long term will be a much simpler repair.

Having said that the '08 flywheel is by no means a direct drop in. It's not
a difficult thing to do (different bearings, and a few spacers) but not a
drop in. Expect the upgrade to cost a decent amount more, and make sure the
shop do actually understand the scope of the work.

Over all though I would say as long as you are splitting the cases it would
be a mistake not to make that update.

Thank you,
Tech Support
Erik Buell Racing




I'm gonna try to talk to Darkhorse this afternoon and get additional details from them; I'll post if I find out anything of interest.

(Message edited by Hughlysses on March 22, 2011)
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Hughlysses
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 05:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I actually got two replies from Erik Buell Racing. Here's the other, which includes the part numbers for the major parts:

quote:

This is an excellent upgrade. The big crank pin and 8620 rods were lessons
learned from the XBRR.

You will need the following for the conversion:

'08-'10 flywheel set 23999-08
'08-'10 front primary drive sprocket 30029-08
'08-'10 Front Primary Sprocket Bolt and Washer 4589, and 6445


These are the primary parts involved in the upgrade. Have your dealer verify
the above part numbers please.

You might also consider a new primary chain, and bronze gear for the oil
pump while taking the engine this far apart.



I checked on-line, and oddly enough the list price for the 08 crank assembly is $50 less than the cost of the 07 assembly.
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Tootal
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 05:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You might also consider a new primary chain, and bronze gear for the oil
pump while taking the engine this far apart.


Might also consider the XB9 Primary gear since you have to buy one anyway! That way you get a new chain too.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 05:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I spoke to Darkhorse; sounds like a pretty straight forward job. He says they've actually been doing the conversions since 07, apparently as part of development work for the XBRR and 08-up engines. BTW- he mentioned that the XR1200 has the upgraded crank but other Sportsters do not.

A couple of specialized tools are required for crankcase disassembly/reassembly, so I'm considering having them do the actual install. I could also get the crankcase bearings replaced and the races align-honed so I'd know the job is right. The bitch about that is probably shipping charges from SC to WI and back.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 05:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Might also consider the XB9 Primary gear since you have to buy one anyway! That way you get a new chain too.

My thoughts exactly. I've been pretty happy with the stock gearing, but if I'm doing all this stuff I'm interested to try it.
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Itileman
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 06:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The XB9 gearing is the best mod I've made to my XT. Never mind the off road benefits. You can actually downshift in the twisties and engine brake.
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Tootal
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 10:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A higher revving lower geared Uly is going to make you glad it blew up. Well, as soon as your knuckles and your wallet heal up!
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2011 - 06:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Does this mean the charging circuit has to be changed too?
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Hughlysses
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2011 - 06:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I don't think so- I believe you press the rotor off of the 07 crank sprocket and onto the 08 crank sprocket.
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Tootal
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2011 - 06:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hugh, from what I remember, the 08 sprocket comes with the rotor already on it. Pressing the 07 off is a PITA! I thought I was going to shatter my magnets. I did it but was really being careful. I don't think they sell just the sprocket anymore.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2011 - 07:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hmm, I should have asked Darkhorse and I forgot.

Coincidentally, there's a thread on the XB board by an XB12R rider who found out his 2005 model has a 2008 crankshaft when he went to install his new 2007 XB9 primary sprocket.

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/327 77/622714.html?1300899733

I'll post in that thread and see what he can tell us.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2011 - 09:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well, the second-most unpleasant task I had to complete is now finished: 2010 income tax returns. Fed & state finished & filed, and much to my surprise, we're actually getting refunds.

Now that THAT's off my plate, I can get serious about finishing the Uly teardown.
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Electraglider_1997
Posted on Friday, March 25, 2011 - 10:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hugh,
As you are well aware, that only means that Uncle Sam used you for a no interest loan. Probably me also.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Friday, March 25, 2011 - 10:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Craig- Yea, I know. I'm just making up for last year when I found out I'd inadvertently borrowed several grand from Uncle Sam that suddenly had to be repaid. That will ruin an otherwise good day.

I heard from Darkhorse regarding any problems with using the 08-up primary sprocket/rotor with the earlier stator; here's their reply:

quote:

I do not believe there is any reason to change rotor or charging system as a whole, we did it without changing anything on a number of bikes.



Sounds like it won't be a problem.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2011 - 06:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've been at it most of the day. The engine is out and partially stripped. Have to decide how far I'll disassemble before I ship to Darkhorse for the crank replacement.

I'll post pics later.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2011 - 07:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2009-Buell-XB12R-En gine-Motor-Complete-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem45 f9a4d742QQitemZ300541073218QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPart sQ5fAccessories

Hmmm, a 2009 XB12R engine (~5k miles) with oil cooler, complete wiring harness, ECM, and voltage regulator. I wonder what it'd take to adapt that to my 07?
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