| Author | Message | ||
     Andrewc |
Hi everybody. I just picked up my 2005 XB12S on Saturday. It had about 150 miles on it from the dealer, and I put on about 150 myself on Saturday/Sunday. On Saturday night I decided to warm up the bike and go for a very quick ride to test the visibility of the headlamps / I wanted an excuse to sit on my bike again. I let the bike warm up for a few minutes, which included bringing the bike up to about 2000 rpm, then turned off the garage lights, and noticed the exhaust was glowing fairly brightly. The front header pipe was glowing the most, I suppose since it’s curved. The length of the glowing pipe on the front of the bike is probably roughly seven inches. Tonight I tested it again by letting the bike idle for probably 4-5 minutes. After a quick look the exhaust was not glowing. Then, I raised the rpm to about 2000 again for maybe ten seconds, at which point the glowing returned. I’m scared. Q1) Is this normal / what should I do? Q2) What are the causes of / how do you detect an engine that’s running too hot? | ||
| Andrewc |
hmmm I posted this after doing a search and not finding much but I see someone has recently posted a similar thread. I should add that it's not warm here. We still have snow on the ground and at night you're lucky if it's above freezing. There was some suggestion that this is normal but I'm still not sleeping any easier. | ||
| Buellistic |
Look for an air leak intake track !!! | ||
| Andrewc |
Thanks for getting back to me. I put a socket on the header and was able to tighten it at least two turns and it's still not especially tight. I didn't want to over tighten it. After that started it up and tested it again. It may be some optimism here but I think it was a bit better. It still got red, but I think it was less red, and I think it took longer. At this time I noticed the top nut seemed to be looser than the bottom one (which was also loose). The rear header glows also but less and most of the glowing is under the seat so I didn't pay much attention to it. Does anyone know the torque rating for the header nuts? What about the rear header, is it hard to access? | ||
| Shea |
Usually what I do, since I don't have a torque wrench, is stagger the tightening of the bolts and once a little tight, I tighten them with a 1/2 to one full turn. Then, ride the bike, get it warm, then retighten. If you just bought it from the dealer, call them and talk to the service department about it. If it was technically new, then they should atleast look at it and see what's wrong. It's only a year old with 150miles on it. The warranties on the 06 is 2 years, not sure if it's the same for the 05. | ||
| Earwig |
I have an 04 and the warranty is 2 years. | ||
| Andrewc |
It's totally under warranty. I was going to call the shop but I wanted to be armed with some know how first. Do you think it's ok to ride the bike to the shop (about an hour) or would that be a bad idea? | ||
| Xldevil |
-qoute- I put a socket on the header and was able to tighten it at least two turns and it's still not especially tight. I didn't want to over tighten it. It's a very bad idea,to tighten header nuts without the use of a torque wrench. Torque needed is 6-8 ft/lbs (pretty damn light actually)for tubers. I don't think that XBs need much more. If you would break one of the header bolts,or if overtightend nuts cause damages to the head, you will have to pay a lot more than a good torque wrench costs. Btw.Your header trouble has nothing to do with loose header nuts.You can totally unscrew the nuts and the headers will not glow. (Message edited by xldevil on March 28, 2006) | ||
| Buellistic |
"INTAKE !!!" | ||
| Andrewc |
Thanks Ralph. I do have a torque wrench but I don't know how tight the header nuts are supposed to be. I visually inspected them and noticed that the top nut was more loose than the bottom one. That's what prompted me to try tightening it. I'm confident nothing was damaged. What are the other potential causes of this problem?} | ||
| Jackbequick |
Andrew, I think what Buellistic is saying about the intake is that an intake leak can lean out the mixture some and result in higher temperatures in the exhaust tract. At least carburated bikes can work that way. Not sure about the EFI models. If it is leaned out and you run it at sustained higher RPM it can do some horrible things to aluminum pistons. Suction side air leak trouble shooting on carbed bike can be done at a fast idle by spraying WD-40 around the inlet tract joints and listening for changes in the idle speed or any smoke from the exhaust. Again, not sure if that will work on your XB. Jack | ||
| Andrewc |
Thanks Buellistic. Could you explain to me what type of an intake problem could cause this? I'm not about to disassemble my three day old motorcycle. I'm just looking for some explanations. | ||
| Andrewc |
I will be visiting the dealer today to discuss this. Is there anything I should bring up with them besides the red hot headers? Should I be concerned about any permanent damage to any particular part? | ||
| Jackbequick |
I can understand your concerns Andrew. I think you're asking me (jackbequick/Jack) because I posted last so I'll try to answer your question. My experience is with the M2 and that has tapered black rubber (or some rubber like material) seals where the "Y" shaped intake manifold is clamped to the cylinder heads and also where the carb spigots into the manifold. Those seals are probably the major source of intake leaks. The seals harden with age and have been the source of rough idling and erratic low speed running on some of the older models. Experience has shown that it is a good idea to replace those seals every couple of years or so. It is not a major project, maybe takes an hour or so. There are some diagnostic tools for reading the status and settings of the EFI modules on the newer bikes that a dealer should know and have the tools for I'd think. And there are also some procedures for resetting them and riding procedures to calibrate them as you are riding after a reset. It's possible that the bike is running too hot and it may or may not have incurred any damaged. Again a good and honest dealer should be able to help you determine that. I think some trouble shooting like compression and bleed down checks will give you a good idea as to the condition of the pistons, rings, and valves. It's Monday morning, I guess most of the real BadWeb experts are at work. Good luck on this! Jack | ||
| Blake |
When the bike is warming up it will run rich (more fuel), this can result in the headers getting hot as prolonged combustion/flames resulting from the rich mixture can travel through them for some distance. If the bike is running okay, I suggest you continue riding it. As advised so astutely above, aways use a torque wrench to check tightness of header nuts. Strongly suggest you cease revving the engine to help warm it up! Read the applicable instructions in your owner's manual and follow them. Start it, let it idle for 30 seconds then ride it gently to best help warm it up. | ||
| Andrewc |
Jack. Thanks again. I'm on the way to the dealer to discuss it. I'll share what they tell me. Blake. Thank you for your help and the link to the owner's manual. I understand the bike runs rich while it's warming up. I wasn't revving the bike until several minutes after starting it. I thought that would be ok but I'll avoid that in the future. I'd be quite happy to use my torque wrench but I don't have a shop manual and therefore don't know what the torque setting aught to be. Where could I get that information? | ||
| Andrewc |
Alright everyone. I just got back from the dealership. The tech I spoke to essentially said if after letting the bike warm up and going for a 10 min or so ride, that if the headers were not glowing then there wouldn't be much to worry about. Remembering that the second time I tested it I let the bike warm up in place. That being said I am yet to find another XB owner who has experienced the same thing so I am still concerned. Also I asked about the potentially loose header nut. He said from my description that the nut did sound loose. Also he said that there is no supplied torque setting for header nuts because of the exhaust gasket. Any thoughts? | ||
| Blake |
Yes, stay away from that tech, on account of he doesn't know what he is talking about. I do agree with one thing though, just ride the bike. Header nuts should be torqued to 6-8 ft-lbs as stated above. | ||
| Buellistic |
"ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS THINGS IN THE WORLD IS A HARLRY-DAVIDSON TECHNICIAN WORKING ON OR GIVING ADVISE ON A BUELL !!!" THE EXHAUST HEADER AT THE HEAD SHOULD NOT GLOW CHERRY RED !!! (Message edited by buellistic on March 28, 2006) | ||
| Andrewc |
Thanks Blake. I'll check the nuts tonight. | ||
| Blake |
What about blood red?  Or wine red? ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) | ||
| Curtyd |
I'd bet it isn't much more than letting the bike and header sit and "heat up" at twice the normal idle speed for a length of time. All motorcycles are air-cooled even the ones with radiators. That means they NEED moving air flowing over them. Especially a tight new motor. All my pipes go thru some basic discoloration as they heat and cool over a bunch of break-in cycles. I agree, RIDE IT. I ride mine from start up, I never have baby'ed them and they all seem oil tight and run strong.  (Message edited by CurtyD on March 28, 2006) | ||
| Andrewc |
Thanks everyone. I did as the dealer suggested and extended my experiment. At about 9 pm when I got home it was completly dark. Here in Ottawa it's about 42 F outside. I started my bike and let it warm up while I got my gear on. Probably 4 minutes or so. I went outside and saw that the headers were red hot again. It's impossible for me to explain how bright they are, but in total there is probably 7 inches of red pipe at the front header. So I hopped on and went for a chilly ride. I stopped in the middle of the road after maybe ten seconds to see that the header was not red at all. I waited probably 15 seconds, and it then lit up again. So I continued my ride. I stopped several other times after progressivly longer rides to the conclusion that when I get off the front header is not red at all, while the rear one is red under the seat. It doesn't take long at all for them to brighten up. I beleive I understand the basic causes of an engine running hot now, but I desperatly want to know if this is normal or not. Some suggest it is, others say it isn't, and the rest don't know. Is there another XB owner out there who can tell me if their pipes glow in the dark too? I'm sorry if you think I'm asking the same questions over and over, it's just that I haven't been convinced either way. cheers  }} | ||
| Xldevil |
THE EXHAUST HEADER AT THE HEAD SHOULD NOT GLOW CHERRY RED Yeah,and I bet This would be as bad as a novice violins quartet playing at night next to my bed  | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
I've never in 32 years of riding had the header pipes glowing red on any bike I've owned. Can't be right, surely? | ||
| Hans |
Almost a 5 year old story, told me first hand (nah, second hand then): Customer with a new X1 (tuber) complained about glowing exhausts. Sure they did. Dealer couldn`t find anything wrong. Bike went at last to the factory. They couldn`t find anything wrong. They turned off the lights in the factory and tried also another X1: Also glowing exhausts ! Freezing cold and dry air doesn`t cool as well as warm and moisty air. For the engine both are cold but the moisty air has a much greater capacity for heath. The discolorization on the headers of my M2 shows me that they must have been glowing (and that already during the first hundreds of miles). I never noticed it, but it must have happened after stop and go traffic. You surely have to look for that phenomenon. Hans | ||
| Jlnance |
Andrewc - I'll check mine tonight. I'm assuming it has to be fairly dark to see this? I know Eor has made his headers glow in the daylight, but he was running it hard. | ||
| Andrewc |
Thanks everybody: Xldevil: I won't forget that rhyme. I'll tell it to the tech when I go at lunch today. Steveshakeshaft: wow ok that drives the point home. Hans: Thanks for sharing that. I'm feeling a little better about the situation. I'm not really worried about the bike self destructing in the next 12 hours at least. Jim: Hey it's Jim from the Blast group! You might know who I am, not sure. Either way, thank you for testing your bike. I'm eager to hear the resules. Yes it has to be pretty much a no light situation. I did it in the garage with the lights out at night. I tried to get a picture of it but nothing really worked out. | ||
| Andrewc |
So, still some controversy on the is it normal or not front. I’m tending to side on the it’s not normal camp but I have two people who are willing to test their XBs so I guess we’ll get the results from that. Also I am going to the dealer today. They have a dark room that I should be able to demonstrate this to. I’m confident that it will be resolved. Stay tuned. | ||
| Buellbozo |
JMTCW, I ain't no metallurgist, and I havent played one on television, or slept at a Holiday Inn Express, but I wanna go on record as saying the temp required to turn your pipe red has got to be close to what it takes to melt an aluminum piston. I'm fairly new to this board, but I'd like someone to let me know the last time Buellistic offered incorrect or wrong advice on a Buell technical question. When knowledgable people take the time to share their counsel, I listen the first time. My experience is that if I dont, they may not offer it the second or third time. It HAS to be a lean condition to raise temps.Rich mixtures run cooler due to evaporative effects of unburnt fuel. I've never seen an engine seize or melt because it was too rich. The most obvious way to create a lean condition that the ecm cant compensate for is an air leak in the intake tract. Viva LaFayette!!! Just my rant...Usual disclaimer applies... Expiring minds want to know.  |
