| Author |
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Xb9
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 09:04 am: | 
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Does anyone know if the AMA has approved the XBRR for Formula Extreme? Has homologation been applied for, and the status? |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 10:02 am: |
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This had been discussed in other threads, but do you think that the team that built this doesn't already have a ruling from the AMA. It's a XB modified and for sale by the factory to be competitive and still meet the class FX limits. ... Let's quit talking about this an start some threads about cheering them on. ... Terry |
Xb9
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 10:14 am: |
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Hey Terry, I just haven't read anything as far as an "official" statement from the AMA. I would think that Buell had covered all the bases, but with all the negative stuff being discussed on other boards, including alleged protests from other FX teams, It would be nice to know if the AMA has officially given their blessing.
I am rooting them on!! Go Buell!! |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:01 am: |
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It would be nice if the AMA or Buell stepped forward and said whether the XBRR is eligible for Formula Xtreme or not.
If it is eligible, that opens up the class to Ducati for example, who could put an air cooled DS1000 motor in a 749 frame and punch it out to 1340cc, and sell it to racers only as an FX bike.
Honda and Erion could then take a CBR600RR frame, and put a 750cc aircooled IL4 motor from 1969 in it, and sell it to racers only as an FX bike.
Where does one draw the line?
Do certain rules apply to certain manufacturers or does one rule apply to everyone?
I think Formula Xtreme is a weird catch all class to begin with, and then the fact that it is the Daytona 200 class makes it even stranger.
If you selectively apply rules to different manufacturers, there are bound to be protests from guys who have played by the rules, especially since the Daytona 200 carries as much weight in the racing world.
I'd like to see the Pro Thunder class back, without the 600s in it.
The 600s already have the Supersport class.
(Message edited by jima4media on January 27, 2006) |
Crusty
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:05 am: |
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Crusty
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:23 am: |
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If you selectively apply rules to different manufacturers, there are bound to be protests from guys who have played by the rules, especially since the Daytona 200 carries as much weight in the racing world.
Do you really believe that the top teams have strictly played by the rules without any "bending" to their advantage? Wasn't it just a couple of years ago when someone spotted some magnesium wheels that were identical to stock aluminum wheels right down to the manufacturers logos that were used for the "stock" Supersport class?
The rules have been in place for a couple of years. As long as nobody believed that a Buell could be competitive, nobody protested. Now, Buell has a bike that could potentially win the race, and suddenly, they're crying foul.
As far as a 1350 cc Duck, the rules specifically give that displacement limit to pushrod motors.
Buell looked at the rules and built a bike that stayed within them.
Of course, if Ducati or Honda or any other manufacturer wants to build a pushrod street bike, then they could also build a bike like Buell has. Conversely, if Buell builds a 600cc street bike, then their racer would have to conform to the same rules as Honda and the rest of Japan, Inc. do. |
Skyguy
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:30 am: |
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I taught the leading aerodynamics guy from Toyota F-1 racing team how to paraglide. He told me alot about the inner workings of the pro race teams. All of the pro teams cheat whenever they think they won't get caught. They develop technology that there are no rules for yet. They all whine about the other guys cheating. I don't see any reason the Motorcycle crowd would be any different. |
Jiffy
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:31 am: |
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This thread from another forum has gotten out of control. They are arguing whether or not the XBRR is legal in AMA. I wish someone from these forums would set these guys straight on some of these random facts being thrown around.
http://www.cycleforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=209077&perpage=20&p agenumber=11 |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:59 am: |
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This reminds me of the guy who parachuted, whipped out his cell phone, in freefall, asking "do you rent parachutes?"
I have no frickin' idea.
But, hey. . . I am a construction worker. I am trying to imagine finishing this firebreathing $880M beast and THEN contacting the EPA, NYC DEP, etc and asking "okay if I spew shit into the air in NYC and, while I have you on the phone, any zoning problems?"
You guys can be so cute. |
Typeone
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:14 pm: |
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holy crap, you'd think Buell just kidnapped someones children the way those guys are investing time in the issue... long angry rants, digging up photos and overlaying them in graphics apps, paranoid conspiracy theories... damn. total comedy.
GO BUELL! |
Xb9
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:30 pm: |
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Gotta love it  |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:32 pm: |
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The XBRR is legal. Period. End of discussion. |
Davegess
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:34 pm: |
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Jim4, The rules are clear, as long as you have a production aircooled, pushrod, twin you can do anything you want to modify it AS LONG AS IT REMAINS AN AIRCOOLED PUSHROD TWIN. If Ducati's has a production pushrod air cooled twin it is news to me. The japanese MIGHT have these in their crusers, don't know. They could then modify one of those to their hearts content.
Picture this, you take you stock crankcase casting tool and cast a crankcase in say magnesium not aluminum. There you have a modified production part. Then you machine a whole bunch of stuff off it and make a whole bunch of new stuff to add to to it. You bolt and weld it together. It is still a modified version of your production part is it not? |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:35 pm: |
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Ohlin Metzler says that Yamaha plans to race a M6 MotoGP bike in Formula Xtreme in March.
Superbike Planet has the news. |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:38 pm: |
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Well if anonymous says it legal, thats good enough for me.
Who is anonymous? |
Glitch
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:47 pm: |
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he japanese MIGHT have these in their crusers, don't know.
I for one would love to see a push rod race.
Buell vs. Moto Guzzi vs. Yamaha MT01
Are there any other sporty push rods out there?
BMW? |
Road_thing
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 01:15 pm: |
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Well, Jim, if you knew that, he wouldn't be anonymous, would he??
Having said that, I believe that particular anonymous poster is in a position to speak authoritatively on the subject.
rt |
Typeone
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 01:20 pm: |
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Ohlin Metzler says that Yamaha plans to race a M6 MotoGP bike in Formula Xtreme in March.
Superbike Planet has the news.
hahaa! 'Ohlin Metzeler'.. .
(Message edited by typeone on January 27, 2006) |
Crusty
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 01:25 pm: |
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Glitch, the Yamaha wouldn't even be a contender. However, I wouldn't mind seeing (and hearing) an MGS 01 Guzzi at Daytona. I won't make as much horsepower as the XBRR, but I bet it would really sound sweet! |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 01:26 pm: |
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>>>The XBRR is legal. Period. End of discussion.
That's an accurate statement.
Time is precious. Dave Gess is CONFIRMED. My SCU does not have to camp. We've plans to make. This is going to be the biggest Buell-Tona in history.
WE'RE BACK |
Spike
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 02:15 pm: |
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quote:http://www.cycleforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=209077&perpage=20&p agenumber=11
Those guys should get up from their computers, get on their motorcycles, ride to some location with cable TV, turn on some Lifetime Movie Network, and all sit down and have a good cry for a few hours.
Seriously, what in a long list of expletives is wrong with these guys?
The FX rules haven't changed. None of the Buell guys ever cried about the imports getting twice the cylinders or four times the valves, despite Buells obviously being at a disadvantage in previous seasons. Now Buell displays a serious effort that fully utilizes what's available to them and before the bike even puts a wheel on the track the import guys have wet their panties in a flurry of excuses.
Really guys, maybe road racing isn't your sport. Perhaps you should all go watch Brokeback Mountain together. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 02:25 pm: |
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LOL  . |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 02:26 pm: |
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No Jim, Whodon was not anonymous. Why bring him into this anyway? 
Who's on first? Second base! |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 02:33 pm: |
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From the AMA rulebook:
quote:C. Formula Xtreme®
AMA Formula Xtreme motorcycles are based on production fourstroke
street motorcycles. The motorcycles in this class must have
the following engine displacements:
450cc - 600cc 4-stroke multi cylinders
595cc - 750cc 4-stroke liquid-cooled twin cylinders
850cc - 1350cc 4-stroke air-cooled twin cylinders
1. Homologation.
Formula Xtreme motorcycles require homologation. See Formula
Xtreme Approval under General Equipment Standards.
3.Twin-cylinder air-cooled motorcycles:
Engine modifications are unlimited
Jim's two bikes:
If it is eligible, that opens up the class to Ducati for example, who could put an air cooled DS1000 motor in a 749 frame and punch it out to 1340cc, and sell it to racers only as an FX bike. WOULD BE LEGAL, THEY COULD HAVE DONE THIS TWO YEARS AGO.
Honda and Erion could then take a CBR600RR frame, and put a 750cc aircooled IL4 motor from 1969 in it, and sell it to racers only as an FX bike. WOULD BE ILLEGAL, 150CC OVER THE MULTI CYLINDER CC LIMIT
Pushrods are never mentioned in the rulebook, as long as it's an air-cooled twin, modifications are unlimited.
The AMA has said the RR is legal, but were they to be challenged on it, the words 'production', 'homologation' and 'modification' will be at the heart of the debate
To me these words mean the following:
production: available to the public, ie, street legal
homologation: the process to certify that a production bike is street legal, ie, the minimum number of bikes that must be sold in EPA/DOT legal trim.
modification: altering an original production part, not completely replacing it with a non production, non homologated part. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 02:37 pm: |
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again from the rulebook
quote:2. Approval of Motorcycles
a. Homologation procedure information and applications are available
from the AMA Pro Racing office.
b. AMA Pro Racing will only review applications for homologation
from motorcycle manufacturers or their distributors.
c. Once a motorcycle has been approved, it may be used until
such time that it may be disqualified by new rules or rule
changes.
d. Compliance with homologation requirements will not guarantee
AMA Pro Racing approval. Homologation may be withheld or
withdrawn for any reason AMA Pro Racing deems in the best
interest of competition.
e. A list of eligible motorcycle models for each racing class is
available from the AMA Pro Racing office
...
h. Approval of Formula Xtreme® Motorcycles
1. Only approved motorcycles may be used in Formula Xtreme
competition.
2. Formula Xtreme competition is restricted to motorcycles (engines and frames) produced for US street use and
available in the US through retail dealers.
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Josh_
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 02:40 pm: |
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José! where have ya been!? |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 02:43 pm: |
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I'm tellin' ya... Buell will sell "these" as street legal bikes. They just can't/won't announce that yet.
We'll see an XB1350R this year with 120 or so RWHP. Mark my words. It'll probably be priced around 15-18K (hopefully less, but...).
anyone that's been watching racing for a long time has seen this happen many times. Look at the Ferrari 550 Maranello in the FIA GT class... This is NOTHING new. The RR will race, and we'll be able to buy it's homologation bike as '07 models.
(Message edited by M1Combat on January 27, 2006) |
Spike
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 02:50 pm: |
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quote:If it is eligible, that opens up the class to Ducati for example, who could put an air cooled DS1000 motor in a 749 frame and punch it out to 1340cc, and sell it to racers only as an FX bike. WOULD BE LEGAL, THEY COULD HAVE DONE THIS TWO YEARS AGO.
Just thinking out loud . . . that would make a really cool motorcycle. I would have at least considered something like that along with my Firebolt. |
Joe58
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 03:46 pm: |
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After what happened to Erik with the RW750; I'm sure that he made certain that his new creation wouldn't be illegal or obsolete. The rules are trying to make a level playing field. This is also to increase attendance of owners of different brands. Nascar allowed Dodge to produce an engine that's not based on any design that Mopar ever offered in a street vehicle. If memory serves me right it looked like a Ford 351 cleveland. That didn't keep the Mopar faithful away.
Also you don't hear the XR750 crowd complain that their air cooled ohv 2 valves per cyl. 34 year old race engine has to compete against liquid cooled dohc 4 valve production based motors.
Let the games begin. I know that I'll be enjoying them. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 03:57 pm: |
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JQ,
"AMA Formula Xtreme motorcycles are based on production fourstroke
street motorcycles."
Note the phrase "based on production fourstroke motorcycles." Note that the rule does not require the racing machines themselves to be production motorcycles. Nothing in the word "production" implies any requirement for street legality, never has, never will. The XBRR however is indeed a production racing motorcycle. Buell is producing 50 of them this year. They are all based on the XB9R/XB12R production street legal motorcycles.
Likewise "homologation" in no way implies anything about the racing machine being street legal. Homologation is synonymous with sanction. The sanctioning body may define whatever they like as a requirement for sanctioning racing machines. For instance, sanctioned MotoGP machines must be entirely unrelated to street legal motorcycles or other production machines, street, racing or whatever.
Here's an interesting rule for Superbike racing machines...
"Superbike motorcycles must be street certified in the US and available through US retail dealers."
Not sure anyone could ever purchase a Superbike racing machine at any dealership let alone have it street certified. But we know what they mean by that rule right?
How do you reconcile the term "unlimited" with your view of what a "modification" is? From my view, an unlimited amount of slight changes is the same as an unlimited amount of radical changes. The whole infinity thing comes into play.
Buell is BACK!
M1,
I'm marking your words. I bet that you are wrong. |
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