| Author | Message | ||
     Rocketman |
Anyone that cannibalises an S1 in this manner, should be shot at dawn !!!!!  Then again.........................Hein, aren't you the guy that traded an M2 for an S1, then threw the S1 down the road ? Now its seems all your Buell dreams are coming true. Bet I know how you did it  . It's great how you've turned a shite thing in to something very special. I can't wait to see your finished S1. Seems me and you will be stood in awe of each others Buells when Croix comes around. I've a few surprises of my own  Rocket in England ps, nice looking shop. Charleys ? | ||
| Rocketman |
Here's the other peg leg  Close up, it looks good. You'd never belive carbon would hold up. Rocket in England | ||
| Tripper |
A clue perhaps? | ||
| Airborne |
Carbon Fiber in suspension parts? What about the reliability to withstand dynamic stress? How much flex does the swing arm have vs how much will it withstand. If it flexes too much your handling will suffer. If it doesn't flex enough your comfort suffers and then again so does your handling while cornering. I ask these questions because even though carbon fiber is a wonderful durable strong material it still has limits. Unfortunately when carbon fiber is stressed to it's limit there is a catastrophic result when it does break. Just a real world example, F1 racing uses carbon fiber for everything, including suspension parts. Already this year there have been 3 race cars just suddenly break and wreak do to catastrophic failure of the carbon fiber suspension. I checked out the Dymag website. As usual there isn't any reference to how they are made. As a general rule for myself, I don't trust or buy anything unless I can find the technical data for it. There isn't even any bragging rights to claim for their product. Don't get me wrong, carbon fiber is a wonderful material. I just feel that as in any material, It has it's uses and mis-uses. | ||
| S2no1 |
Airborne, It's should be a matter of getting the plys oriented to provide the correct torsional and bending stiffness. As for stiffness, you can achiever very high moduli with CF, higher than steel and or aluminum. Also, due to the weight you can make the moment of inertia very high by moving the material farther from the neutral axis. One could venture that the CF failures in F1 may be due to the lack of sufficient computer modeling, poor NDT testing of the CF construct, and the quest to push the CF construct to the limit. However, CF has low impact resistance and damage in the interior of the material fibers does not have to be visible at the surface to cause a failure. Panels made from CF can have a hole punched through the center with little loss in ultimate and fatigue strength. However, take the same panel and strike it with a hammer at a critical seam, you'll see no damage, but it will significantly effect the ultimate strength and almost wipe out fatigue strength. Suspension components go through a lot of loading cycles. Moral of the story, CF should make good suspension components, if properly engineered, but don't hit it with a blunt object. Arvel | ||
| Hein |
Hey rockieboy, did I stir your senses? hehehe Shop is West Coast in Alkmaar, they're doing a great job. It takes time but its worth it. Belt guard looks great close up, plus it is a stressed part of the arm and therefore must not be taken off. CF I don't now none about... I do know that it can be profitable to do a touchdown sometimes... Croix is still a long way away, May 24... But then again it leaves me some time to run it in properly. I think we're gonna go for the same setup, leave Amsterdam wednesday May 23, drive up to the French border, spend the night and in the morning drive up to Croix. I wouldn't mind to stay in France or Belgium on Thursday 24, to be able to take the long way home on Friday instead of racing down the highway... What are your plans? You could sail to Amsterdam or Hoek van Holland and leave Amsterdam together with the rest of us... Later, S1WL Hein in Am*dam | ||
| Rocketman |
Hein : Nice touch down A*dam sounds better than Zeebrugge. If I get my shi t together, I'll be there. I can't wait to shatter your ear drums on the small ferry at Cloggenboats Ville. Trippy : Put a sock in it Oh, and check your post. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocketman |
Hairborn, S2no-one : Carbon fibre seldom fails in F1. Where did you get your info on these supposed three sudden failures ? It's bollocks. If F1 tubs were not made of carbon fibre, a lot of todays racers wouldn't be todays racers, instead, they'd be crippled or dead ! You guys need to do more research in to the stuff. Here's a good starter point. When McLaren built the F1 road car, you know, the one with the £650.000 price tag and the 231MPH top speed, they took it for its impact\crash tests, where they slam it head on in to a solid wall at 30 MPH, the front bumper broke away from it's mount and that's all. McLaren said the car would have driven home. The chaps at MIRA test centre said no other car ever tested had left the wall without crumpling. Dymag C\F products are tested to the highest standards known. Where the test for wheel failure is set at whatever target, Dymag always go much much further than the minimum requirement. They are world leaders in this technology and their products far exceed the ISO\DIN standards. This is one company that doesn't require bragging rights. Dymag are changing their web server. If you need to see any tech info, Dymags American importer put some tech stuff on the net. You'll have to search around. I used Searchalot and got a result. Ducati's 916 was the chosen bike for the first carbon arm. Ducati now sell some models with the Dymag C\F wheels as standard fitment. Also, the Turbine Technologies , Allison Engined bike is using Dymag carbon wheels this year. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocketman |
Airbomb : Here's the link for Dymag carbon arm and wheel test data............. http://www.superbikeracing.com/testdata/ Hope this helps. Rocket in England | ||
| S2no1 |
Rocket, Same tune different key. We are actually talking about two modes of failure here. You are quite correct that the CF tubs are fantastic. But, CF, as with all materials, has some unique properties. The point of my post (poorly made) is that CF damage may be hidden. The damage is invisible and occurs in the plys that make up the CF resulting in catastrophic failures. Pound for Pound CF and other composites are stronger and can be stiffer than any metal component. Airplanes with CF body panels are routinely subjected to ultrasonic tests, because the panels can catastrophically fail without visible indications of failure. The damage is all internal. I read the same information on the McLaren (very nice fast car). However, some CF components would fail after the impact from fatigue cycles associated with an internal ply failure. If you like some references, let me know. I'll pull them from my professional library. Arvel | ||
| Rocketman |
Navel : Sure I'd like some REAL articles on carbon fibre. Nothing to technical, more, what constitutes the real thing, the differing (materials used) types, the fake types, that sort of thing. TIA Rocket in England | ||
| Blake |
Composites do not fatigue. They might suffer degradation of integrity in durability/damage tolerance scenarios (growth/propagation of delaminations), but you can notch a CF/EP test wafer and cycle it at near failure stresses forever without getting any crack propagation or fatigue type failure. The great thing about composites performance in durability/damage tolerance scenarios is that often the delamination reaches a size large enough to allow dissipation of stresses thus preventing further propagation of the delamination. Plus, I'm sure the CF swingarm will be well armored with a layer of toughened plies/coating or some similar technique. You SSSarm guys suck! I want one! | ||
| S2no1 |
Rocket, Let me get the stuff scanned at work, I'll post some. Do you want the math or the basics. Blake, Yes and no. I agree that they don't fatigue in the classical sense (tensile stress propagation). However, my main point is that you can damage the CF and never see the internal flaws. That IMHO may be why there were suspension failures (if any). Otherwise, you are quite correct. Explaining the difference between damage tolerance and fatigue may be too complicated and lead to confusion. So just keep it simple and use the word fatigue. Not technically accurate, but understandable by most. Now where's the old text book. Arvel Rocket, messing up my username or real name won't get to me, I get mail for Aerial, Orville, and occasionally Aardvark, let's see if you can improve on those - Arvel, Marvel, Norville, Orvel, etc. | ||
| Tripper |
Rocket won't have no trouble, cause his motor is calibrated against wimpy English horses and won't apply too much torque to the swingarm. Now Smaddy and Pammy, that's a different matter. Just kidding Steve! | ||
| Airborne |
Hey Rocketman, I won't entertain your insult by calling you a rock or rookie or other deviations However, your reply is irrelivant to me. My question only concerns the suspension. I never made a referance to the F1 tubs. I already know the tubs can withstand a lot of stress. The tubs aren't what broke to cuase the wrecks. I got my information about the suspension failures from watching and listening to the F1 race from Austraila on Speedvision. Two wrecks during practice and one during the race. All three wrecks were shown in slow motion. The rear suspension just gave up. S2No1 and Blake: Thanks for the intelligent replies. In laymans physics it is understandable that the suspension is going to undergo more stress than the tub (F1), frame (Buell) is going to recieve and that is the reason for the question of stress tolerance on suspension parts. Now that I understand that blunt force truama is the enemy to CF I would now be leary of having stones hit the swing arm from being flung from the wheel as it turns down the highway. I still stand by my statement: Any material has a proper use and a mis-use to a given application. | ||
| Rocketman |
Airbrain : Your comments about carbon fibre reliability appear to be based on what some F1 race commentator said. That's plain dumb ! If cf is used by the aeronautics industry and in many motorsport disciplines, including race bike suspension, surely these testaments support the products far better than any scare stories put out by race commentators. Ever heard of a cf arm or wheel failing ? And by the way, what insult would that be then ? Rocket in England | ||
| Ocbueller |
Shite! I hope Pocketrocketman has bought a c/f SSS. Anything less would now be a let down. What about that paint scheme now, Stars and Stripes? OCBueller | ||
| Blake |
I gotta agree with sprocketman. (just some good humored name calling, sheesh ladies have a bit of humility will ya) Ya gotta give the CF SSSarm designers a little credit. Do ya really think they would fail to consider damage tolerance and durability in the design of their product. Plus, all carbon fiber based composites are not created equal. There are so many fiber and matrix (the stuff, usually some type of epoxy, that holds the fibers in place) variants you could fill a book with them. Some matrix materials provide far better impact resistance, but by sacrificing optimum structural performance properties (strength, stiffness). In the old B2 days, we used to call them "tough epoxies" They work. | ||
| Rocketman |
Oh See Buell Heir : Yep, plenty of surprises in store this year on my S1W. You'll not have to wait too long to see 'em, but I'm afraid I can't satisfy your lust for a carbon arm. To me the sss arm is not in keeping with the way I like MY Buell to look, carbon or otherwise. Now, anyone else willing to fit one I'll look forward to seeing. Who knows though, when I do eventually see one in the "flesh" (Hein's at Croix perhaps ?), I might like it more than I do in pics. Then I might have to have one Nice looking S1 Steve Rocket in England | ||
| S2no1 |
Blake, It fills several books. I haven't played with that composites since my college days. If you've worked on the B2 your knowledge of current material is certainly greater than mine. Actually, a composite frame and suspension should make about the best motorcycle. Low weight, very low unsprung weight, and with the right ply orientation a very stiff frame. Wasn't there a CF/Composite frame a few years back? Arvel | ||
| Loki |
Arvel, I believe someone is doing it at this time. Pull up an article on the Tularis racing bike. I think a portion of his frame is done with CF. loki | ||
| Airborne |
Canondale bicycles have CF frames and last I heard (just rumor) they were trying to produce a motorcycle. If it is true maybe they will use CF on the suspension too. I'm just trying to learn a few things about CF so that is why I'm asking the questions. So far I understand how CF is made and formed into parts. I also understand how layering and criss-crossing the plys gives strength. I also caught on to there being different combinations of plys and epoxies. Since I learned something new about how it gets damaged, this brings me to Question two. What is done to protect against... say stones, sticks, maybe even a dog hitting the CF component? Note: no dogs where hurt during the writing of the message. See I have humor also. Oh yeah, Blake and Arvel. you guys have been most helpful and informative. | ||
| Ocbueller |
Thanks, Crotchet in England. I do love my snarling beast of an S1. One day I too will have a nickel plated steed. Don't discount those X1's though. You be surprised have fast you can get one to get naked. SteveH. | ||
| S2no1 |
Airborne, Local shop has a Cannondale. Looks Trick. Carb in front, exhaust in back, electric start, thin and light. Don't know much about dirt bikes, but heard it was fun. Expensive as I recall. I'll drop by and take a closer look. Arvel | ||
| S2no1 |
Rocket, Ping me here. I found my old notes from the classes taught by McDonnell Douglas when I was taking grad courses. I have about 300 pages. Let me know what you are interested in; the syllabus is: Aerospace Composites Organic composite Materials Composite Fabrication Process Lamination Theory Composite Joints Postbuckling Composite Panels Environmental Effects Automated NDE High Temperature Composites The rest deals with MD politics and some software associated with solving the laminate theory for plys. Each section is about 10-20 pages. For basics the "Introduction to Composite Materials" by TSAI (Techromic Publishing 1980 or Analysis and Performance of Fiber Composite by B.D. Agarwal are two basic texts. These notes are real basic, except for the math, laminate theory is based on multidimensional matrices. Almost all of which I have forgotten. See what my big mouth started. Tell you what, I'll pick some graphs on basic material comparisons, fatigue, and other failure criteria and see if that's what your are looking for. Blake, After reviewing my old old college notes it would be more specific to say that the a potential mode of failure for composites would be compression buckling. Damage from impact would accelerate this failure mode. How about that, arm chair engineering, and who says us engineers don't know how to have fun. Arvel | ||
| Airborne |
Arvel, Well that confirms the rumor about cannondale. Only I thought it was going to be a street bike. I wonder if it has a CF frame and suspension? Please explain in a paragraph or less about compression buckling. It sounds interesting. | ||
| S2no1 |
Airborne, Compression buckling is associated with delamination and/or defects in the plys. These defects are typically internal and only show up under x-ray or UT. Composites are stronger in the longitudinal direction of the fiber than across the fiber. That's why it is critical to get the ply orientation correct. Random fiber composites, such as sprayed chopped fiberglass have approximately the same strength in all directions in a macro sense. But woven fibers can be optimized to be stronger in one axis depending upon ply thickness and strand orientation. Where the plys are delaminated, and in compressive stress, they can separate, causing a failure. The matrix will bulge out. You can really complicate the design by pretensioning the fibers so that in the final application they will experience a reduced stress . This can be done by prestressing or thermal induced stresses. The equation can be a lot of fun if your into that sort of thing. Arvel | ||
| Ralph |
The equation can be a lot of fun if your into that sort of thing. Give it to Aaron, it'll keep him busy and happy for at least a few minutes. bighairyralph | ||
| Rocketman |
Well 300 pages is about 299 to many All I would like to know is the laymans way of knowing\recognising\understanding what REAL carbon fibre is. Something to do with clothes pegs or J pegs, right ? Rocket in England | ||
| Tonyinvabeach |
Does anyone have the service bulletin (initial adjustment settings..etc)in Adobe for the new shock? I wanna add it to my service manual. Thanks Tony |
