| Author | Message | ||
     2k4xb12 |
I recently bought an '04 XB12S and picked up the race kit at the same time. I'm holding off doing the installation until the 1000 mile service, but was wanting the better sound of the race muffler, so here's my question -- can I install the rest of the kit and keep the stock ECM in place for now without any problems, or should I wait and do the whole kit at the same time? I searched the board, but did not find a definitive answer. | ||
| Opto |
They all go together, best do it that way. You don't have to wait unless you're worried about warranty. You might save a little money getting the tps reset on the race ecm at the 1000 mile service because a tps "adjustment" is called up in the owners manual then. But if you want sound, and you being a sound engineer, I don't think you'll make it to the 1000 mile service without fitting the whole lot.  | ||
| Fullpower |
i am running the DRUMMER exhaust on a stock XB12. no problems at all. bike runs great, sounds real nice. you will have to leave the stepper motor in place, if you remove it the check engine light will stay on. | ||
| 2k4xb12 |
Thanks for the responses guys... I know -- I'd like to do the full install now, but I'm close enough to the 1k that I think I'll do the muffler (did the air filter the first day I had the bike -- the stock one had a tear in one of the blue seals), and leave the ECM stock for now... Fullpower -- yup, gonna leave the stepper -- even says so in the instructions... Might as well let the computer think it still does something  | ||
| Fullpower |
i really would like to find a simpler, more compact device to keep the check engine light off that is really overkill engineering, 4 wires, and a stepper motor is a lot of extra crap to carry around just to keep an ECM happy. | ||
| Easyflier |
You think that maybe just adding a resistor might fool the ECM? | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
might be a question to ask Darthane... | ||
| Easyflier |
Yeah, I don't know how complicated it is but I can't imagine that the motor and valve are doing anything more than switching between open and closed. | ||
| Fullpower |
easy: it aint that easy. the stepper actually sends a signal back to the ecm. it functions as an exhaust valve position sensor. the real solution to the problem is the simple installation of the race ecm. only thing stopping me from putting that little unit in is 70miles of ice between my bike and the nice gentleman at the HD boutique where the TPS value can be reset. bummer. | ||
| Easyflier |
Ok, more complicated than I thought, the race ECM is definitely the simple solution.  I know what you mean about the weather, I got caught riding home from work in it. Fortunately the pavement was just wet but the snow was collecting on my visor, visibilty sucked. | ||
| Darthane |
Fullpower's right, but by the same token Easy is probably right as well. It's not overkill, four wires are just necessary to make it work right. Two for the sensor and two for the motor. You can most likely fool the ECM into thinking that the valve/sensor is still there. Hell, you may not even need the resistor, just splice the output signal from the ECM to the input signal (though if this throws it too far out of whack you might end up with an error code anyways). Somebody with a 12 (w/a stock ECM) could test this theory, but it would require a little time and effort. Unplug the sensor while the bike's on - should trip the light. Jump the two sensor wires together at the sensor (a paperclip would work fine if you've nothing else) and see if the light goes out. Anybody with a XB12 manual have the voltage/resistance specs for the exhaust sensor? If you can supply that we can work out if a resistor is necessary and what size. Bryan edited by darthane on March 15, 2004 | ||
| Bads1 |
Gearhead runs the race ecm and Drummer so do I.He deleted the stepper motor,I didn't.My light does not come on nor does his.I've unplugged mine to see if the light would come on and it does not. | ||
| Darthane |
Dana, that's because the Race ECM doesn't look at those signals anyways. Only the stock ECM does. | ||
| Bads1 |
Darthane the race kit instruction tell you to keep the stepper motor intact.Thats with the race ecm.We have covered this in a archive.My light didn't come on when I started it and ran it with the stock ECM either. | ||
| Darthane |
Because you still have the sensor/motor installed. If you had removed the sensor/motor while you still had the stock ECM installed, it should have tripped the light. | ||
| Bads1 |
Nope it didn't.  | ||
| Bads1 |
ooops sorry darthane you are correct sorry bout that. | ||
| Darthane |
LOL...well, then. Fullpower, was your statement based on experience? Did you try removing the sensor with a stock ECM and have the engine code on you? In any event, I'm sure we can 'fool' the ECM and thus shave off the however many ounces that stepper motor/sensor assembly weighs if necessary. Maybe Dana's just smoking the good stuff. Edit: LOL...apparently he is! edited by darthane on March 15, 2004 | ||
| Bads1 |
Just couldn't remember what I did.The race ECM has a outlet to plug the Stepper motor into but is really just a dummy plug.I don't see any reason to have that plug there. | ||
| 2k4xb12 |
If it's a typical stepper motor (four wires), and I haven't really put much focus on it as of yet, then there is no sensor (unless the sensor you're referring to is located elsewhere). A typical stepper has two windings (hence the four wires). Some even have tapped windings (with six wires). In stepper applications where a physical stop is used, when the system is powered up (or reset), the motor is "homed" -- that is, it is pulsed to one extreme end of travel where it is forced against it's physical stop. After a time period long enough to ensure that it is at it's home position, the pulses stop. In some cases (but not all), it is then stepped to it's opposite extreme (physical stop) until a rise in current is detected. If the proper number of steps is needed to get to this opposite extreme, then the controller knows there is no obstruction, and the motor returns to it's home position. I don't think our exhaust stepper controller goes through this much effort. I believe ours is spring loaded to return to it's "home" position (although, as I said, I haven't looked very closely, so this is based on casual observation). When in operation, once the home position is established, the controller knows how many steps it takes to get to whatever position it needs to be in at any given point in time (based on the motor's resolution -- or degrees per step). Therefore, the controller is only sending pulses to the motor (which are out of phase with respect to one another, hence the multiple windings) and counting these pulses. On a stepper setup like this, there is usually no external sensors involved (as there would be in a DC motor application). So, if there are four wires going to the motor, then one could possibly simply measure the resistance of the windings, and then use a pair of resistors of proper size and wattage (typical stepper voltage is around 5 volts). If anybody has done any extensive research into this subject, by all means chime in -- as I said -- I'm speaking of experience with stepper systems other than the one on our bikes, and concluding that ours is not unique. Steve. | ||
| Darthane |
Ahh, yes...the stepper motors on some of the engines here are the same way. It may be using the crank signal to determine how open the valve should be. The valve is based on engine speed, not throttle position, right? In any event, if someone can give me the stats and schematic for it we'll see what we can do. Edit: Well, I went digging around and couldn't really find anything definitive about the setup. In an interview, EB says that it's not just a rev-driven, solenoid-controlled motor, but it doesn't mention which sensor (if any) controls it or if it's all preprogrammed into the ECM. edited by darthane on March 15, 2004 | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
What specifically do you want Darthane? I have both manuals here at hand... | ||
| Darthane |
Well, if you've got MS Paint, doodle up the schematic showing the ECM to stepper connections (hopefully with functions of each wire). Also, if it is mentioned anywhere, any info pertaining to a trouble code set by the (lack of) the stepper connection. Bryan | ||
| Ilikehotchicks |
so bubba how much can you set me up with JUST the drummer for? I dont not wanted to added power i just want an exhaust for sound. ben | ||
| Darthane |
Ben - http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=32777&post=203350#POS T203350 All Drummer posts have been moved to the Knowledge Vault under Exhausts. Bryan | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
page 4-64 A code 21 will set if the ECM detects that the output for the Interactive Muffler Control Actuator is not in agreement with the feedback circuit Flow chart: Connect Breakout Box and measure voltage between pin 2(black)(-) and pin 9 (black)(+). Disconnect terminal [164] from ECM. With ignition on, Ground opposite end of patch cord. When grounded, voltage should be between 4-6 VDC, and 0-1 VDC when not grounded. Will that do?  | ||
| Darthane |
Just for clarification, the red wire is pin 9, the Active Muffler Control is Terminal [164], and what does it say inside the Muffler Valve Actuator/Position Sensor on the right? Control something? ...really need an internal schematic of the ECM and Exhaust Controller to be sure of this stuff, but I doubt those are in the manual! edited by darthane on March 16, 2004 | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Control Signal and you got the rest. | ||
| Darthane |
Hmm...well, I've got some ideas, and I probably shouldn't open my big mouth on this until I get the chance to monkey around with one (think Spidey would let me tinker with one of the XB12s they've got over at American? Hehe...). But I've given up listening to that little voice so here I go. LOL...if I'm wrong, well, I'll admit it and we all move on with our lives. I believe that the motor assembly has got some 'smarts' built into it, as well as internal switching and a voltage regulator. The red wire is marked both 'Hall Sensor' and 'Active Muffler Feedback' - it's what tells the ECM where the valve currently is (damned magnetic sensors...potentiometers just aren't good enough for ya anymore?!). It's the yellow wire that I'm not so sure about. I think it is a control signal that gets interpreted by the motor assembly. From what Wycked copied out of the service manual up there, I would guess that ground and open on that signal coincide with stops on the physical valve, and 5V (grounded) and 0V (open) as reported by the sensor. This makes be believe that the valve is just opened or closed, not variable. Now, the problem is that the stock ECM wants to open and close this valve twice during the RPM range. It will trip the code if the feedback and control line don't match (basically, the ECM says to close the valve, and if the sensor doesn't report back that it is indeed closed, it trips the code), which means that any signal you give to the feedback line needs to fluctuate from 5V to 0V accordingly. I don't see any easy way to do that (no way, in fact, without knowing the way the ECM and motor assembly communicate) - so, in my opinion, you either leave the assembly in there, and simply get rid of cables, put the Race ECM in, or live with the trouble code. Sorry...I think they did too good a job of making sure that anything wrong with the Interactive Exhaust was reported back to the rider. If it was just the lack of a signal that set the code you could rig it so that it just reported 5V all the time and it would be happy. They had your best interests at heart, really! LOL Well, thanks for giving me something to occupy my mind for a while, the FI thread I was gleefully postulating in died off...another boring day at work. I can't wait to get my ass home and see my babe and my bikes! And, if anyone see flaws in any of that (Anonys, Reep, whomever) speak up! Constructively, if possible. Bryan | ||
| Opto |
I agree with you Darthane, it looks like the ecm puts a ground on the actuator and the hall sensor puts out 5V. Then when the ground is lifted the feedback is 0 to 1V. There is no mention of the word stepper in the FM, only servo motor. In the flow chart page 4-65 one of the tests is with WOT, ignition on, run/stop switch on (engine not running of course) the actuator should cycle smoothly and open and close immediately. So if a simple cct could be designed to supply 5V with a ground from the ecm and 0V with the ground removed there may be a chance of fooling the ecm. |
