| Author |
Message |
    
Bads1
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 12:30 am: | 
|
Dyna the Ducati 999 wasn't tested yet and the 999s has to what I understand 131hp and the 999r at 139hp. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 02:29 am: |
|
Dyna the bike you are looking for isnot the Fazer Thou. Go steal a ride on the new (in American speak) Zee One Thousand. That is THE bike out of Japan.
Rocket  |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 03:53 am: |
|
The Kawi Z1000 is an interesting bike. I do like the looks of it & the ergos for being a smaller bike are pretty damn good. But I want the better wind protection that the FZ1 has. I want & need a capable bike for long distance highway miles.
I really dont see the Z1000 as being that sorta bike for 2 up. |
Crusty
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 06:02 am: |
|
quote:OH, like all the VR1000s I see all over the place?
Yep, just like them.
There you go. Proof positive that the AMA is biased in favor of motorcycle manufacturers. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 06:25 am: |
|
Wind protection you wuss? Are you talking flatulence?
Just go ride one, it makes the Fazer a dinosaur.
Rocket |
Smadd
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 06:43 am: |
|
I'll give anyone $$$$$$$ if they can tell the difference between 120 and 125 HP on the street... save for (just perhaps)a very good professional!! The range can probably be even greater... I'm just being careful with my $$$$$$. And I'll give even more $$$$$$ if they can tell that one of them went 11.2 at the 1/4 and one "only" went 11.4! And the one that made 121.2 HP yesterday... today it might make 120... tomorrow 122.1. Those numbers mean very little when you're on the street, or comparing bikes with so similar an output. Give me a break!!!! Test ride a bike and buy the one whose power "personality"... or should I say "overall personality" turns ya on. #%^(@!
Steve |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 08:21 am: |
|
the impression that I and most others originally got from your comment was that you were claiming that a Harley-Davidson executive was making a business evaluation statement WRT Buell in general, not a statement concerning his own personal riding preference. BIG difference.
Fair enuff, however, i prefer to not talk business when one on one with the HD types, there are exceptions(especially CS people) however i feel it is in poor taste to talk business when someone is off work and out for a ride, but if there on a bike i will talk bikes, the problem as i see it, not really a problem, if there is little enthusiasm at the top, how does that translate closer to the bottom???If the we ride with you statement is so true for HD, and they dont ride Buell, how does that effect the goings on, hows that better??
Hmmm? Seems that some people prefer a more practical bike over a "race replica". Gee I wonder if anyone at Buell has taken that into consideration? D'ya think maybe???
This is exactally the point i think that from time to time is being made, if there interested in a day to day bike, why complain about racing, IE, we can use Dynas example of an FZ1, dont see any of those out on the track, yet there is not a call to arms to allow it, so in theroy, if Buell makes street bikes, every day bike, and fun bikes, why complain about not being able to race if they dont make a race bike???Dont be fooled, a GSXR1000 is a race bike in street trim, as is an R1/R6/ZX6RR/CBR600RR and the list goes on, again i say, pony up, or dont complain, again these are my opinions
How did Aprilia do what?
Aprilla, decided to build a large street bike, 1000 cc v twin, did it in 4 years and placed on the podium in 2 year(i belive i might have been 3)
Troy Corser was the rider, they have not entered into the US,from my understanding, due to the adjustable rear swing arm and some other opions that DO NOT come on the steet bike(homo rules we discused before), granted they do not produce a motor, but managed to build a great street bike, that produces great power and torque, seems that if a small italian company could do, why not Buell, if you really want Buell to go racing or for that matter produce a race replica, all you need to do is look toward Aprill and KTM, smaller companies, selling less bikes in the US, yet they still managed to produce a world class bike, in a very short term.
Here is my NEW question, since i am only a groundskeeper, and not in the know of manufacturing, or anything even close, i had read in past issues of Hot Rod, that GM and other companies have built motors in CAD, or something like that(the new I-line 6 come to mind), is this possiable for Buell, cutting down on development time, maybe even being able to do some testing in the computer, again i have no idea how it works, but it seems to be a time saver, from my understanding
Later
Roger
|
Benm2
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 08:26 am: |
|
quote:Hmmm? Seems that some people prefer a more practical bike over a "race replica". Gee I wonder if anyone at Buell has taken that into consideration? D'ya think maybe???
Maybe they have, but I still want a racebike. Read comments in RRW (just got latest issue, yes I've been delinquent) regarding Thunderbikes, with comments about not putting too many laps on a fast Harley, as they don't last long. (Hey, they called it a Harley, not me) Even if Buell decides NOT to directly compete with the 600 fours (or 750's, or 1000's) in the market place, it would be nice if the engine could survive racing a little better. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 12:18 pm: |
|
Roger,
You expect that all HDI/HD executives should be sport bike enthusiasts?  Your sentence got mangled in editing, please translate... "If the we ride with you statement is so true for HD, and they dont ride Buell, how does that effect the goings on, hows that better??"
This year, the FZ1 is eligible to race in AMA Superbike, and Formula Extreme. Next year it will be eligible to race in AMA Superbike and Superstock. The FZ1 makes power commensurate with the baseline version street bikes comprising both classes. The fact that no one races an FZ1 is irrelevant. If desired, it could be campaigned against other comparably powered machines. The Ducati 749RS cannot. The XB9R cannot. Besides, a race prepped XB9R is a very adept track bike in its class, far more so than an FZ1. Why not let them race? I see Ducati North America is seeking to petition AMAPR to allow the 749 into Supersport. Now with Jeff Nash on the board of AMAPR, maybe some things will start to change for the better. Unfortunately, until they get rid of the liars running the show there, it will be a constant uphill battle.
So if it takes Aprilia four years to put a bike on the showroom floor using an outsourced engine, how long do you think it should take Buell if they were to insist on using there own brand new engine, possibly with help from outside experts?
CAD is simply a tool, it is NO substitute for expertise and hard work. The engineers' dream of going directly from computer model to final product on the shop floor is still just that, a dream, at least for something as complex as an internal combustion engine. World class high performance engines are as much art as they are science, meaning that some of the science is so complex it defies comprehensible formulation. Consider all the goals...
Exceptional power output (significantly better than the competition's machines)
Light weight (opposite of heavy![:]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) )
Durable (durable , usually means big and heavy, stout, but we cannot have that)
Reliable (inherently resistant to defects)
Integratable (must fit and work within constraints of a motorcycle chassis)
Maintainable (easy/inexpensive to maintain)
Manufacturability (easy/inexpensive to build)
Legal (must meet all applicable government requirements...)
It's not much different from a mini-Apolo program or a mini- Manhattan project. You are basically trying to do what no one else has done before. For Buell, it is something even more challenging... Where Aprilia was intimately familiar with racing machinery via their 250 GP experience, Buell has no similar wealth of experience from which to draw.
Back on topic... Will AMAPR grant Mike Cicotto's request to allow Buell Pro Thunder machines in Formula Extreme? Will AMAPR grant Ducati's request to enter the 749RS in AMA Supersport and to adjust their rules in Superbike to allow parity between twin and quad cylinder machines? |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 01:43 pm: |
|
Back off topic  R.E. Cad design... I was at GE Aircraft engines when they developed the GE-90, what they claimed was the first totally CAD designed engine from scratch.
It worked well, and payed off, but it was not a magic bullet. You heard a lot of people wandering around hallways talking about the "rough analog simulation of our beautiful digital engine" 
(But it did make over 90,000 pounds of thrust, even during development)
|
Sportsman
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 05:44 pm: |
|
Now we're talkin, A XB GE90 R |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 10:43 pm: |
|
Acceleration would be killer, but fuel range might be a little limiting.... Wonder where the AMA would class a turbine bike...
|
Jprovo
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 11:58 pm: |
|
I think now that Guzzi and Ducati have voiced intent to go racing, the rules will change. As far as the twin/qaud parity, maybe in weight rules, but don't hold your breath. The AMA seems to think that all engine configurations are going to suddenly be competitive with one another due to them ruling it so. It's kinda like CARB thinking that automobiles will have zero emissions just because they make it a law.
Reep,
A turbine bike or a return of the Wankel would be great. So would having a class for single cylinder and three cylinder bikes that isn't superbike.
James |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 08:18 am: |
|
You expect that all HDI/HD executives should be sport bike enthusiasts?
Thats again is the heart of the matter, if they want Buell to grow dont you think they should be at minimum sport/street fighter enthusiasts??If not, why did they purchase the company, i do not recall Buell ever making a cruiser, now MY perspective dicatates that they need to be sport/street fighter enthusiasts, why, i personally think the HD will come into some difficult years, everyone that wanted to buy HD has moved up there purchases a year or 3, or delayed a year or 3, so they could buy a 100th aniversary model, i dont think sales will be as strong in the upcoming years, and maybe Buell could help the bottom line, kinda make up some of the customers who waited or purchased early, but they need another (notice another) bike, or????
"If the we ride with you statement is so true for HD, and they dont ride Buell, how does that effect the goings on, hows that better??"
Lets try this again, Willy G has stated over and over again " WE RIDE WITH YOU ", meaning(i think) that they ride and are enthusiastic about the HD product line, if they are not ridding Buells, how does this translate to how the feel about Buell, or what does this mean in referance to how Buells are sold, taken care of and so on, i think this is where some of the concern comes into play(and how the money is spent to promote Buell IE racing back to topic)
The Ducati 749RS cannot
I said it before and i will say it again, Ducati was purposly not allowed to race, as far as the rules are concerned, because the AMA wanted to see if they would pony up and have a factory backed team in the AMA. The AMA played them very well, and i would bet that next year you will see a factory backed Ducati team racing in the AMA, again time will tell
Now with Jeff Nash on the board of AMAPR,
What about Kevin S., and Ulrich??? I belive they were all elected at the same time, again something i stated several months ago, sometimes you need a little patience.
So if it takes Aprilia four years to put a bike on the showroom floor using an outsourced engine, how long do you think it should take Buell if they were to insist on using there own brand new engine, possibly with help from outside experts?
Is the Rotax and outsorced engine, or is it being built in conjunction with rotax and aprilla, i was under the impretion that the relationship Aprilla had with rotax was similar to HD porche, except that HD is building the Vrod motor, but again i have heard that the vrod motor is built in france(dont know if thats true), Aprilla had its hand in the design of the 1000 cc vtwin, but rotax builds them, i dont really see a ton of difference between hd and aprilla, only semantics
Interesting thing i was once told and again i am not sure is its true, but my understanding was that the Aprilla 125/150 Gp bike are based on the Suzuki engine, and modified by Aprilla, not sure if its true, but in the lower classes of GP, i can not reacll a suzuki in the race, something to think about(i was going to mention BMW using rotax based engines or the fact, that for a while aprilla was building BMW's but that can come up later)
Where Aprilia was intimately familiar with racing machinery via their 250 GP experience, Buell has no similar wealth of experience from which to draw.
I would have agreed, however it shold have read, more familiar, the RW 750 counts, and the XB series class bikes have the geometry of a 250, this all sounds like racing numbers to me, so i belive there is some welath to be drawn upon, however to race you have to spend
enuff for now
ROger |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 12:18 pm: |
|
Roger,
HDI and HDMC VP's need not be sport bike enthusiasts, they just need to support the people who are... their associates at BMC.
Think of it this way... I doubt that all the VP's at GM are sports car enthusiasts, but they support the people who are. It is a business, not a hobby. If it can make money, smart business people will be on board no matter what. I'm pretty sure the business people at HDI are pretty darn smart.
If they were provided adequate resources and an outsourced engine, Buell might be able to bring a superbike to market within a four year span. Rocket's contention and what started kicked off my discussion of the issue was that Buell could do it within a one year span. Remember what I said about doubling an engineer's estimate and quadrupling a layman's?
Harley Engines are built in France? Where do you get this stuff?
The RW750??? How does that 20 year old race bike experience relate to creating a mass produced superbike class street legal machine??? The RW750's, all two of them, were single purpose prototype racing machines. It was fixin' to be a hell of a lot more until AMA killed it's class, but even then it was still a single minded racing machine. Even so, how many people currently employed with Buell had anything to do with that effort twenty years ago? I'm guessing one.
My point is that Aprilia had already "been there, done that" with their GP machines. Buell has not.
Aprilia uses Suzuki engines? Where do you come up with this stuff? Aprilia is actually one example of what Buell would need to do should they wish to get into the repliracer market. I'm not sure Buell does want to enter that market, but if they do, Aprilia provides one example of what it takes...
Start slowly with the smaller simpler stuff and progress steadily towards your ultimate goal. Aprilia started with small sport bikes LONG before the Superbike was in production. They progressed steadiuly over time to where they are now. Did they meet their goals? As far as racing goes, their superbike falls short. I don't think Buell would be satisfied with those results. They would be in it to win and win big. Everyone wants results today. The reality is that all good things, especially innovative world class things, take time. Add a hesitant mongo corporate bureaucracy, and it may take even longer.
Concerning the other member of the AMAPR board that you mentioned. I guess you are discounting the appointment of Mr. Nash? I don't know why. Anyway, do you expect that Kevin Schwantz, Mr. Suzuki himself, would stand up to Japan Inc? Ulrich I could agree has the integrity to vote according to his conscience, but I doubt that he would press the board to institute change that does not favor the machines of Japan Inc.. Mr. Nash is a Ducati man. He'll bring a whole new perspective to the scene.
edited by blake on June 27, 2003 |
Bigsherm9r
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 12:37 pm: |
|
Blake,
The Aprilia Suzuki engine thing comes from the Aprilia 250cc 2-stroke that is/was for sale in the states using a Suzuki engine. It was from the RG, RGV250 whatever it was called.
Sherm |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 02:25 pm: |
|
I doubt that all the VP's at GM are sports car enthusiasts, \
I thought Mr. Dunstof(sp?) was a VP and a Corvete enthusiast, I could be wrong 
I'm pretty sure the business people at HDI are pretty darn smart.
No one has ever said otherwise, they have set out to create the best selling cruiser, and done very well with it, good for them, but again sport bikes are very different
Harley Engines are built in France? Where do you get this stuff?
Actually i heard this from someone at the crud run last year i think, i have yet to find out if it is true or false, and have yet to find anybody who has seen them being built, i have seen the firebolt/twin cam/ sporster motor, but never a VRod, maybe somebodt here could say otherwise, first hand actually seen it??
prototype racing machines
Sometimes these items eventually trickel down to the everyday car , the RW750 was a bad example, but early GP machines with BANNAA swing arm(aprilla mille) or cast alloy wheels all started life in the race circut and eventually ended up on the street, if you can not or will not see how race bikes translate into information for street bike there is no way i am going to explain it to you, however i for see an anti spin device in the future similar to K.S. GP bike(that was over 10 years ago i belive)
My point is that Aprilia had already "been there, done that" with their GP machines. Buell has not.
If you relate an Apilla GP bike to the street, why cant you relate an RW 750 to the street, that seems to be, well hypocritical, sorry just seems that way(and if the one guy who designed an built it 20 years ago is still there, again as has been said before, he has many ideas in his head)
Start slowly with the smaller simpler stuff and progress steadily towards your ultimate goal.
Like Britten??
Aprilia started with small sport bikes LONG before the Superbike was in production
You mean dirt bikes, with sachs motors???
i do not recall small sport bikes, maybe you could mention a few, i really dont recall much other than dirt bikes and scooters???Maybe 125 bikes but never have seen one, whats it called(rocket may know)
As far as racing goes, their superbike falls short.
Podium in the third year of production is falling short, man you have high expectations, the KR must just suck, as does the Foggy, i think both are very cool, and deserve everyones respect
Aprilia uses Suzuki engines?
Look it up, then tell me i am wrong, BMW with a Rotax, harley with a Rotax, Bimota with Suzuki/ducati, Honda with a WW II generator motor, look it up, my source could be wrong, but i doubt it
I guess you are discounting the appointment of Mr. Nash?
Never said that, i actually feel you have discounted MR.Ulriches election, never have i heard you mention his name, along with the AMA PR, never given him the credit for using only US riders and even setting up tryout for them, Ducati i belive has an Austrailian, if you want to talk Pro US, Ulrich is King, bar none
The Aprilia Suzuki engine thing comes from the Aprilia 250cc 2-stroke that is/was for sale in the states using a Suzuki engine. It was from the RG, RGV250 whatever it was called.
As was(i belive) there 125(modified), but what do i know, i really dont know where i get this stuff
Later
Roger
|
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 02:44 pm: |
|
Inappropriate "anonymous" post by Benm2
quote:Remember what I said about doubling an engineer's estimate and quadrupling a layman's?
Any engineering staff worth their weight CAN produce what they need with the time they are given. That's what nights & weekends are for. Delays in bringing new engines to market are most likely related to governmental delays, or delays in funds approprations. Proton is an excellent example of what an engineering team can do with (1) motivated staff (2) dynamic leadership (3) clearly defined goals (4) CASH and (5) TOOLS. And, that is at the highest level of competition. A "mediocre" engine could be made more quickly.
In the US alone, there are MANY aftermarket companies with specialties in various engine areas. Connecting rods, crankshafts, gear trains, clutches, pistons, blocks, camshafts, rings, sprockets, etc. Each of these companies has staff that has a wealth of knowledge about their particular product. If someone wanted to build an "all american" engine in a short time it would be best to "borrow" as much as you could from a "target" engine, then fill in the blanks with off-the-shelf (or nearly so) parts. You can build entire 350CI V-8's without using a single part from the big three, using aftermarket parts that exceed the spec's of the factory original parts, that may vary wildly in design from factory spec.
Think of what Nallin Racing could do with access to a full CNC machine shop, an industry phone book, six months, and one million USD.
Inappropriate "anonymous" post by Benm2 |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 04:10 pm: |
|
i have heard that the vrod motor is built in france(dont know if thats true)
Supposedly the parts are stamped..."made in France" but the motor is assembled here. |
S320002
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 04:23 pm: |
|
Benm2,
"You can build entire 350CI V-8's without using a single part from the big three, using aftermarket parts that exceed the spec's of the factory original parts, that may vary wildly in design from factory spec."
The original small block V8 that these "off-the shelf parts" are made for was originally designed and developed by Zora Arkus-Duntov in the early fifties and first went into production in 1955. That is an extremely long development cycle by anyones standards. Besides that haven't you noticed all the whining and moaning about Buell using "fifties technology" in their engines. But on the other hand you may have stumbled onto something that Buell has known for a while. ">
Greg">
edited by S320002 on June 27, 2003 |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 05:17 pm: |
|
I'm not getting into this..................am I..........Rocket's contention and what started kicked off my discussion of the issue was that Buell could do it within a one year span. Remember what I said about doubling an engineer's estimate and quadrupling a layman's?
And the Foggy took how long and not just an engine but a whole WORLD SUPERBIKE? Not to mention they started the project from scratch, zilch, nowt, ditched the first motor early on in the project too and started all over again with a different motor and not only that but they have waiting in the wings the 150 homolagated street bikes type approved, tested and ready to roll. Amazing what you can do with a few quid (or $$$$'s)
Aprilia started life as a bicycle company. In 1973 Ivano Beggio took the company into 125cc two stroke motorcycle production with Futura, Extrema and Pegaso models. The RS250 came in 1994 and it was pretty much a replica of the GP bike which Biaggi won the title on. Its engine was a redesign of Suzuki's RGV250 V twin two stroke, all be it a subtle redesign with about 70BHP on tap. The closest you'll ever get to a real GP racer for the road?
Aprilia also built the (ugly) BMW F650, and we know what they build now don't we.
Incidentally Beggio attributes much of his companies success to the process of building his bikes from components sourced outside of his company. Virtually nothing is made in house. Sound like Buell to anyone?
Another interesting fact about Aprilia, out of approximately a thousand strong workforce half of them work on the racing side or at least according to this book I just perused over they do.
Rocket |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 06:12 pm: |
|
Rocket,
"The Foggy took how long?" I'm not sure when they started, but they have yet to put a bike on the showroom floor over here let alone crank up anything resembling mass production, not to mention that their racing success is, well... not.
If Buell wanted to slap together a few superbikes and throw them onto the circuit, I'm sure they could do so in very short order just like HD did with the VR1000. That however is a completely different scenario from developing and producing thousands of street bikes for sale in N. America, W. Europe, Australia, Japan and Britain; is it not?
Thanks for the Aprilia history. It supports what I am saying... steady progression, no giant leaps in product line.
1. Bicycles
2. Scooters
3. Small 2-cycle street and racing motorcycles
4. Bigger 2-cycle street and racing motorcycles
5. 4-cycle street and racing motorcycles
6. MotoGP racing.
|
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 06:28 pm: |
|
Roger,
It takes time, experience, and a significant investment to develop a world class street bike based racing machine and in turn get the street version into mass production and to the showroom floor. In any new product development scenario, the further a company seeks to leap from it's existing product line and pool of experience, the more difficult their challenge becomes, the longer it will take, and the greater their risk of failure becomes.
The Apollo program is one of the best most familiar examples of steady, controlled progress towards a final goal and ultimate success in a challenging product development scenario. If you've not seen the HBO produced series From the Earth to the Moon, I HIGHLY recommend it, especially the part about the LEM (Lunar Excursion Module) entitled "Spider." The writers and director absolutely NAILED the real world scenarios of product development and project management AND somehow made them very interesting and understandable for the lay audience. If you are really interested about understanding the hurdles in a new product development and production exercise, do some research on "project planning" "project management" and "critical path" definition.
While they may not sell them in America, Aprilia has sold thousands of two-cycle RS125 street bike repliracers in Europe, the street bike version of their world class GP racing machine. They had a significant history in GP racing long before taking on the superbike project. So now you know. Though very impressive, Mr. Buell's experience with two lonely RW750 prototype racing machines does pales in comparison to Aprilia's experience with their RS125 and RS250 machines that preceeded their Superbike project.
A Buell effort towards developing a new racer replica model would be kinda like Britten in that a new world beater street bike based Buell race bike would need to be something revolutionary, but unlike Britten, it would also need to be mass produced and sold to the tune of thousands per year at a reasonable price.
Truthfully I don't know what your point of discussion is now. I thought we were discussing the level of executive support that is required of HDI and HD senior executives to promote the success of BMC and the relative ability of Buell to get a competitive world class street bike racing platform to market. Every post gets further and further from the topic. Now I'm at fault for never mentioning anything about specific members of the AMAPR board or their actions wrt their own racing teams???
We've wandered off the edge I think.
Ben/naughty-anony,
Are you contending that Buell should go out and gather up a bunch of aftermarket performance parts in order to help assemble a world class street bike based racing machine? Wouldn't that end up being close to a Pro Thunder race bike? Also, bringing together the best high performance parts does not by any means guarantee a successful or even durable result. There is a lot more to an engine and its durability than the quality if individual components. Everything needs to work well together. Unforeseen resonances and thermal stresses can wreak havock. It also needs to be lightweight.
I think we need a new topic for this thread or to resurrect an old one.
PS: Why the anony post? Please avoid that in the future. Like it says... "(Valid reason required. Abusers will be exposed. If unsure, ask.)"
|
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 08:56 pm: |
|
Blake you're being a complete bull head again. Foggy have been going less than two years. As I said before those 150 bikes do exist and they have been seen by MCN and photographed by them, let alone all the relevant officials. Last weekend Troy Corser finished both races inside the top 10 which is pretty ok in my book and just to rub salt in the wounds I didn't see a Buell fielded much to all us Badwebers disappointment. But then again aren't you saying it takes more than a short time to build a motor from scratch, let alone a complete bike, and now your saying If Buell wanted to slap together a few superbikes and throw them onto the circuit, I'm sure they could do so in very short order just like HD did with the VR1000. How contrary is that?
As for Aprilia you are playing with words. Their rise to GP fame was quick, much quicker than you imply, and successful too, and the gap between GP racing and their Superbike effort is also much closer than you imply.
I've a suggestion. Why don't you stop championing Buell for the sake of just championing them. They are not nor will they ever be the company that you would like them to be, they don't build race bikes. As far as I'm concerned they have two things in their trophy cabinet. One, they made once upon a time a great looking streetfighter motorcycle yet to be bettered in style or appearance perhaps, and two, they have a knack for innovative design within their motorcycles, but as of yet they have NOT brought us a world beating motorcycle on or off the track yet they think because their namesake is\was a keen racer they have some god given right to call the shots where racing's concerned. Team Elves have done more for Buell racing than Buell themselves and nearly no one outside of the Buell community has heard of Team Elves. I say it's high time Buell put up or shut up or start producing those commuter bikes Mr Buell so loves, allegedly.
How's that sound?
Rocket |
Jon
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 09:58 pm: |
|
Hey Rocket,
I for one don't care what you think, and I hope Blake doesn't either.
How's that sound? |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 10:34 pm: |
|
Like I pissed you off!
And Jon, Blake does care coz he loves me
Rocket |
Jon
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 11:02 pm: |
|
You didn't piss me off. I was lookin for company. Cheers. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 02:10 am: |
|
You saw pictures of some bikes? LOL! The discussion in which I thought we were engaged, was about the duration required to create a world beater superbike that is also mass produced and available to the public on a wide scale for use on public roads outside of exclusively Poland or Malaysia.
This has little to do with Buell specifically, it's just knowing a little bit of what it takes to mass produce a revolutionary new breed of racing motorcycle.
There's a huge difference between throwing a few bikes together for homologation in Malaysia versus mass producing them and getting them to the showroom floor in W. Europe, N. America, Australia, Britain, and Japan. When I see FP1's sitting on the showroom floor in Dallas, Texas for under $20,000 I'll mark the end of that particular superbike's development cycle.
The sad thing is that the FP1, like all of EB's forays into AMA racing, has been sabotaged by the racing class rules making body. The FP1 will be a 0.9L in a literbike class.
Does anyone here really think that is just a coincidence? I don't. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 04:41 am: |
|
Jon, me too and it was about 3 30 in the morning LOL.
Blake, The sad thing is that the FP1, like all of EB's forays into AMA racing, has been sabotaged by the racing class rules making body. The FP1 will be a 0.9L in a literbike class but that depends on how you view that particular rule doesn't it? Triple versus twin, twin versus four, four versus five or a bag full of all, either way if your argument is Buell can't cut the mustard at 1000cc, which I believe it is then in some peoples opinion they should either build a 1000cc motor that can or continue with what they have in a more suitable arena. At least Foggy took the 100cc out and they're ON the grid and competitive.
Rocket
|
Benm2
| | Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 08:28 am: |
|
quote:Are you contending that Buell should go out and gather up a bunch of aftermarket performance parts in order to help assemble a world class street bike based racing machine? Wouldn't that end up being close to a Pro Thunder race bike? Also, bringing together the best high performance parts does not by any means guarantee a successful or even durable result. There is a lot more to an engine and its durability than the quality if individual components. Everything needs to work well together. Unforeseen resonances and thermal stresses can wreak havock. It also needs to be lightweight.
No, I'm saying that there are engineers at Manley, Sputhe, S&S, Falicon, Carillo, etc. who can provide valuble information about their specialty products. Assembling an engine that will run could be done quickly. Refining it, as you suggest, would take time. Making it world class would take more.
Also, I only used the 350-chevy analogy as an example, not as a display of technology. However, a 350 built with 2003 aftermarket parts would benefit from the materials advancements as well as combustion technology. I would not expect Buell to build a water cooled pushrod engine based on two cylinders of a 350.
quote:PS: Why the anony post? Please avoid that in the future. Like it says... "(Valid reason required. Abusers will be exposed. If unsure, ask.)"
I had discussed this with you, or so I thought. I was posting anon in my own self interest, for my own protection. I suppose I was being paranoid about the internet police.
|
|
AMA Pro Racing Seeks to Please Japanese Benefactors 
»
Archive through June 28, 2003