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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 04:07 pm: | 
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No the last race for the VR was at VIR in 2001. He finished second at Pikes Peak in 2000 or 1999 I think. |
Smadd
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 04:24 pm: |
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Pascal? There are privateers... and then there are privateers! I would think that most every level of skill, $$, drive, professionalism vs. hobby, etc. etc. etc. can be found at the privateer "level". The factory supported teams probably do not show that wide range. They have to try to be at the top of the game in every aspect. Pascal running in the top 10 should be no surprise to anyone. |
Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 05:07 pm: |
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Rog . . .yeah, but I figured you'd made a mistake in citing a clear example of a one-mark racing class as an example of rules benefiting a manufacturer (smile)
I'll bow out at this point, as my knowledge of WSB and the like is thin at best, and my experience with race sanctioning bodies in general has pretty much nailed my opion on that topic to the floor (bigger smile) |
Crusty
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 05:19 pm: |
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Pascal in the top ten doesn't surprise me. I would think that it would be a shock to the anti AMA contingent, though. After all, being a privateer, he can't afford Magnesium copies of factory wheels, or other creative and expensive ways of cheating that the AMA will ignore.
The really surprising thing is that a sanctioning body run by prejudiced, corrupt, greedy and incompetent buffoons is the premier series in this country. After all, don't crowds flock to see Formula USA races? Isn't the TV coverage of Formula USA better? Aren't the best (as in more skillful) riders in Formula USA?
Quite frankly, I'm sick of people attacking AMA Pro Racing with all the fanatical logic and fervor of a top level Al Quaida leutenant. |
Jssport
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 09:35 pm: |
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Ok, let's leave the AMA out of it.
Now I've searched my stronger brain cells over the last few days and I remember it like this.
There was the FIM and there was the AMA. The FIM ran 500's and 750's in different classes. I remember the 750's as GP-750,.. but weren't the 500's cinsidered/called F1 ?? I can't be sure about that. 750's were basically a support class like the 350's.
In America the AMA ran them together.
The FIM was the 1st to stop running the 750's, the AMA followed suit in an attempt to please the FIM and gain favor in our series.
It was Bill France who owned Daytona Speedway (aka Dayntona 200) and other tracks (??) who forced the change to production based Superbikes upon the AMA from following the FIM to standing alone as a series.
Please feel to disagree or correct me.... but try to be polite. I'll try too.
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Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 03:05 am: |
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Crusty,
I know my rhetoric and tone can come across as overbearing and browbeating. It is not intended to be so. I'm a passionate and rather frank person. If you were to talk to me in person you would probably be surprised. The typed word loses a lot in the translation from my mind to keyboard to your screen.
But really, don't you think that AMAPR has lied enough and made enough biased decisions to seal their reputation? I don't think pointing out their questionable behavior is the same thing as attacking them without due cause.
I certainly am not wishing any ill will on AMAPR. I just wish fervently that they would straighten up and fly right. They reflect on ALL American motorcyclists and America in general. Their blatantly biased actions and lack of integrity, something RRW is constantly exposing, are hurting the sport and are just plain wrong.
Saying one thing and doing another is an unacceptable way to represent America. If they want to change their name to something more fitting, like "Japanese Spec Pro Racing USA" or "IL4 Pro Racing USA" I'll shut up and drop the issue. But damnit, I'm an American, I ride an American motorcycle, and I give a damn about how American motorcyclists are represented here and to the rest of the world. And in that regard, AMAPR is a disgrace.
Seems as though in your mind that as long as AMAPR maintains their favored status as the premier racing series in America, as long as they get the TV coverage and big factory (ALL Japanese) factory teams' support, you're willing to accept whatever they throw out. I'm not. It's difficult for me to even watch an AMAPR event on SpeedTV. I absolutely love the racing and competition, but it makes me sick to my stomach when I think about how AMAPR has treated Ducati and Buell and the sport of motorcycle road racing in general. Save for a few unfortunate Ducati privateers, the ENTIRE four-class AMAPR series is nothing but Japanese motorcycles! I'm SICK of that!
Show me any other internationally prominent racing series that is utterly and totally dominated by the brands from a single country, let alone a foreign country. Moto GP? World Superbike? Formula 1? Touring Cars? Dakar? There are none! It is absurd that such a thing should be allowed to happen in American motorcycle road racing and infuriating that AMAPR is actually facilitating it. It's bad for the sport. It poorly represent America. It is the result of VERY questionable and unfortunate behavior on the part of the AMAPR.
Some say "if you don't like it tough, go race somewhere else." Such thinking fails to recognize that the for profit entity that is AMAPR was conceived and born from the grass roots of the American Motorcyclist Association, meaning American motorcyclists, guys on bikes, NOT the conglomerate factories of Japan Inc.. We came together as denizens of the race track, enthusiasts for the sport to compete and cheer and celebrate with our fellow brothers and sisters on two wheels. And so the AMA was formed and from that AMAPR. If it weren't for the support and enthusiasm of all those American motorcyclists, AMAPR would not exist. AMAPR has lost the ideals from which it formed. It's now all about big money and factory sponsors. It is little about America or American motorcyclists, and that is just plain WRONG.
They are not just some for profit entity devoid of responsibility. They owe their very existence to American motorcyclists and the AMA. And so AMAPR owes a huge debt of obligation to America's motorcyclists. In fact their debt to us can never be repayed. Yet, they thumb their nose at us. Their actions and leadership are in direct conflict with the best interests of the sport and of a significant number of deserving competitors. It's time for a change... either their name, or their integrity.
Dang! I was going to just write a quick note.  :LOL: |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 07:48 am: |
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Show me any other internationally prominent racing series that is utterly and totally dominated by the brands from a single country, let alone a foreign country.
Nascar & NHRA. Both put on foreign shows, nascar in Japan & NHRA in England so that makes it international.
I'm an American, I ride an American motorcycle, and I give a damn about how American motorcyclists are represented here and to the rest of the world. And in that regard, AMAPR is a disgrace.
Dont american motorcyclists also buy Hondas, Yamahas, etc? Are they not still american motorcyclists?? |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 04:26 pm: |
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quote:Picotte was in the top ten on Friday despite being on a Canadian spec R6. "Our rules are so different. We have a horsepower limit at home, our bike is about 107 and the limit is 110. Suspension, we aren't allowed to do much either but we were on the pace. Pascal also is riding an R1 this weekend.
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 05:08 pm: |
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quote:Save for a few unfortunate Ducati privateers, the ENTIRE four-class AMAPR series is nothing but Japanese motorcycles! I'm SICK of that!
Show me any other internationally prominent racing series that is utterly and totally dominated by the brands from a single country, let alone a foreign country. Moto GP? World Superbike?
Aparently Anthony Gobert does not feel that unfortunate.
World Superbike?
The AMA is no different than the FIM, WSBK and every major roadracing series in every other country in the world. Their classes are defined by displacement limits, and the two most popular classes are for 600 and 1000 cc bikes, because those are the two classes of bikes that dominate the sportbike marketplace, so it makes perfect sense to write rules that reflect that reality.
What the manufacturers do about it is up to them, the can create other categories (like the Italian Naked Bike Racing series, which Aprilia is doing very well with with their Tuono, or do like Triumph, and show some courage and actually take on the big four on their own turf.
Or you can just sit there and bitch and moan, and take your self-righteousness out on people that don't agree with your world view.
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S320002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 07:13 pm: |
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re: Manufacturers in falt track racing. There was a special series created just to allow more manufactures to compete in flat track racing. They were called Supertrackers and included 1,000cc Suzukis, Hondas, Ducatis and Buells. There may have been other makes participating as well, I don't recall. Last I knew Buell was winning pretty regularly but I think they dumped the class due to "lack of interest".
The Tularis won in FUSA in what is pretty much a wide open class. Any manufacturer who wanted to participate was given an equal opportunity for a butt whipping.
If you truly want a "level playing field" the FUSA classes make sense. The problem for factory racing teams is that the rules don't give them a big advantage. For that they need AMAPR type rules.
Greg
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Crusty
| | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 07:27 pm: |
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The Supertrackers weren't "dumped for lack of interest". they were integrated with the XRs and RSs. Theoretically, since the Supertrackers have more displacement and make more horsepower, they should be able to compete. Last September, a Buell engined 'Tracker made the Main event at Springfield. Last weekend, 2 Suzuki TL based 'Trackers (one factory and one Privateer)made the main. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 07:59 pm: |
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JQ,
Why not let them race? Remember that question?
You'd still like to debate other issues? Okay, I'll happily participate. I don't consider intelligent debate or commentary bitching or moaning. And if I point out the lack of integrity, the lies, the disingenuous behavior of a very publicly intertwined organization, I don't think that makes me self-righteous.
Contrary to your assertion, AMAPR is very much different from WSB or FIM. Both WSB and FIM adjust the rules to achieve parity among different configurations of machines... restrictor plates for IL4's in SB, additional displacement for twins in SS, different minimum weights in MotoGP. Not so in AMAPR.
What you are implying is that motorcycle manufacturers should follow the rules of a biased racing organization when conceiving and designing their sport bikes. So from now on all sport bikes should be either 1,000cc fours, or 600cc fours at least until AMAPR changes the rules again? Is that what you think is best for the sport? Is that what you think the fans want?
Uh, José, we had a "another category" it was called "Pro Thunder." AMAPR killed it and relegated the competitors to a class in which they would be uncompetitive, then that class was changed rendering the PT bikes without question completely unable to compete. What do those actions say about the designs and intentions of AMAPR? Get real. Why would you possibly want to defend such actions? I don't get it.
Why not let them race? And by "race" I mean race competitively. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 08:31 pm: |
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Anthony Gobert doesn't feel that unfortunate? Really? His bike has finished how many races? In what place? GoShow is a world caliber rider. If he's not finishing in the top five in AMAPR, something is seriously wrong. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 09:12 pm: |
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more shady dealings with amapr . go to RRW.com read about the bikes cheating "just another slap to the wrist" AMA is a GIANT commercial for cheap plastic japanese bikes. Jose, are you not just a guy who walks around the paddock with a camera? How can you KNOW so much about racing? |
S320002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 10:32 pm: |
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Crusty,
Thanks for the clarification. I haven't been following the dirt trackers lately. Combining the "Supertrackers" with those cheating, pushrod, two valve, XR750s really makes the whiners seem silly.
Greg |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 10:37 pm: |
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Anony,
Thanks for the tip. Direct link is...
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6239
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 08:46 am: |
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quote:Why not let them race? And by "race" I mean race competitively.
I quote you for the answer:
quote:I don't have nay delusions that a stock XB9R will be able to win in SS as it now exists.
Like YOU said, the current XB9R is not competitive with the 600 IL4's when held to the same rules. So they do not belong in Supersport, they belong in Formula Extreme, where anything goes.
FUSA is great, but let's not kid ourselves, it's fancy club racing.
What FUSA has done by allowing the Buells to race in a form so far removed from the street bike version compared to the 600's or 750's would be roundly criticized as blatant favoritism towards a domestic manufacturer if it happened at the AMA, and then the makers of 600 IL4's would want to be waived from the Homologation and modification requirements just like Buell, and the series would go from a production street legal race series to a smaller version of MOTOGP.
Thats what Formula Extreme is for.
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 09:07 am: |
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quote:What you are implying is that motorcycle manufacturers should follow the rules of a biased racing organization when conceiving and designing their sport bikes. So from now on all sport bikes should be either 1,000cc fours, or 600cc fours at least until AMAPR changes the rules again? Is that what you think is best for the sport? Is that what you think the fans want?
You have it exactly backwards.
As mentioned previously (thanks for the corrections), the 600cc IL4 bike came out first, with the 1986 Kawasaki GPZ600R. They sold a bunch of them, probably to RACE FANS and club racers. Then Honda jumped in with their 600 a year later and sold a bunch of them too. Many ended up on local race tracks and started dominating club events.
The AMA, noticing that there were now two manufactures producing and selling many 600 IL4's, created the Supersport Class in 1987. Yamaha, Suzuki and now Triumph joined in.
The 748 Ducati came out in 1995. World Supersport became prominent in 1997. The FIM, seeking to please their Italian benefactors, allowed the 748 into the Supersport class.
The 1997 World Supersport champ was actually a Ducati, but since then the progress of the IL4's has been so fast that the 748's have fallen further behind at that level, to the point that there are no 748/749 in World Supersport today.
So the end result is the same, no Ducatis 748's in either AMA or World Supersport. |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 09:31 am: |
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whiners
Dont really see much whinning going on, however it has been my experience that when one reverts to name calling, it just shows how wrong he/her is as well as the fact that they are trying to devert the discution because they are now loosing, or being shown there ass |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 09:47 am: |
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Hmmm? Between cecil, dynamoat , and jose i cant figure out who's "winning" its a real close contest! JOSE THE 748 BY DUCATI FIRST CAME OUT IN 1971,not 1995 as you claim. (MY DAD HAD ONE) THEN IN THE 80'S (85-87) IT WAS KNOWN AS AN F3, THREE DIFF HAND BUILT MODELS 1.MONTJUICH,2.LAGUNA SECA,3.SANTAMONICA (i had a montjuich),THEY ROUNDED OFF THE DIS (LIKE MOST MFG) AND CALLED IT A 750 PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PROVIDE FACTUAL STUFF, IF YOU DONT KNOW THEN MAYBE JUST WATCH (LURK) KINDA LIKE YOU DO AT THE TRACK! I would love to post pictures ,but "WHAT I DONT KNOW " about computers COULD FILL OCEANS. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 10:01 am: |
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Hmmm Jose, you calling FUSA fancy club racing? can i assume when you are schmoozing us in the paddock , that you are giggling because "its not real" "its below" "its less than" okay, i will keep that in mind . I think you just slightly took "the lead" thanks |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 11:11 am: |
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Anon, C'mon now. Winning a FUSA race means plenty, but it's not quite the same as winning an AMA event. At least not yet.
I think this is mostly because the factories race AMA, which favors them, which keeps them coming back, which makes AMA more prestigous, which makes the factories race in their event, and the cycle continues.
FUSA rules are more fair, but they'll have a tough job becoming the priemier US racing series without factory teams. The winners of FUSA are the fastest privateers which will always be a agonizingly step short in the prestige dept. Clear channel needs to make use of their TV contacts to elevate their series and draw more factory interest without compromising the rules. |
Jssport
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 11:15 am: |
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Anon:
Do you really think that if someone has a set of leathers and runs around a track that they have any more insight into the AMA PR decisions than interested fans ??
If Matt Maladin or the Roberts boy said the rules are now this way because of "XXXX", would you accept their word as Fact ? or would you just believe that is what they believe, mislead perhaps?
History is what the the writer of the history books says it is, trouble is sometimes there are different history books with different content.
anon said:
"Jose, are you not just a guy who walks around the paddock with a camera? How can you KNOW so much about racing?" |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 11:29 am: |
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Crusty
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 02:32 pm: |
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To say that a 1971 Ducati 750 is the same as a modern 748 is like saying that a 1949 Harley Davidson WR is the same as a new XR750. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 03:39 pm: |
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Crusty, its because some folks would rather argure semantics.
JOSE THE 748 BY DUCATI FIRST CAME OUT IN 1971,not 1995 as you claim.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PROVIDE FACTUAL STUFF, IF YOU DONT KNOW THEN MAYBE JUST WATCH (LURK) KINDA LIKE YOU DO AT THE TRACK!
More personal attacks from an anon. Jose has posted a lot of extremely good pictures from races & events. He does his best to back up what he says with actual facts. He never claimed to be anything other than a race fan. |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 05:29 pm: |
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PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PROVIDE FACTUAL STUFF, IF YOU DONT KNOW THEN MAYBE JUST WATCH (LURK) KINDA LIKE YOU DO AT THE TRACK!
Anon, or should i say Anons, due your need to post this way, none of what you say can be taken serious, since most of what you say can not be investigated or backed up, i belive most informed fans would agree with JQ, in saying that the modern 748/749 was what was ment by JQ's statement, if you feel that early renditions of the Ducati 748 motor, that were avaliable prior to a true SS class count, than maybe you should go back and tell every one about the early gpz 550's and the stock class they used to run in, or maybe you could entertain us with board tracking stories from years past, i belive as has been stated that we are talking about modern racing, and the relatively newly form AMAPR, unfrotunatly since most of us have no experience with hand shifted motorcycles, i think bringing up bikes from a by gone era really does not apply
As far as standing by the sidelines, well some of us have decided racing is not for us, or maybe that the money that was to be used for racing was better spent on a college education or maybe to improve our home, you should consider yourself luck to have or be racing, and not make light of others whom can not at this time aford it, as for me i would rather spend my money on bikes in general, i have nothing to prove in the racing arena, and dont feel any less by not being as fast as some of the other here including Dyna(who has kick my butt numerous times) But if it makes you feel like more of a man, well be my guest, however i thought we were taking about the Evil AMAPR, not how big our dicks are
Roger(yes thats my name whats yours) |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 10:06 pm: |
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I figured that "club racing" comment would bring some people out of the woodwork.
If anybody took it as a disrespectful comment, I'm sorry. It's very good racing.
BUT seriously, by any standard (fan awareness/attendance, factory support, some of the tracks that they race in, the regions of the country that they race in, media coverage, etc.) the Clear Channel National Roadracing and Dirt Track events are one step below AMA, but one step above WERA or CCS. Some would even argue that WERA gets more factory and media support than FUSA gets right now.
But they are trying different things like their more relaxed modification restrictions, the use of the Dyno and bringing back old things, like the combined dirt track/road racing points championship, which is a great idea.
But all this is moot if nobody goes to the races. How many people know FUSA was in Iowa last weekend?
If the fans don't know about and don't go to the events, FUSA won't become a threat to AMA events. When FUSA events come close or actually sell more tickets than AMA at the same track, then they will become a true national Series.
Hey anon, If you see me around the Paddock at VIR or at Summit make sure you say hello. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 11:25 pm: |
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It sure would be nice if the debate could stick to the subject and not get into personal remarks.  That means you too Anony. Best just to make your point and let it go. José is good people. He just has a "unique" way of looking at things. If we all agreed on everything, the forum would be pretty boring eh.
Roger,
Would it help if anony called himself by some other pseudonym? Rest assured that we don't allow just anyone to post anonymously and that they do indeed have valid reason for doing so.
That said, anyone posting anonymously, should above all, avoid making any comments of a personal nature.
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Imonabuss
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 11:33 pm: |
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Jose,
I agree with your comments about Supersport, and noted your comment about Formula Extreme. Unfortunately, Buells aren't allowed in Formula Extreme for next year, even though the Pro Thunder spec Ducatis are. So, once again, AMAPR screws Buell, on purpose. I mean, it's pretty blatantly obvious looking at the rules.
Shame on AMAPR for being so biased against Buell. And I don't want to hear all this numb-ass shit about "why doesn't Buell build an 600cc four cylinder". The question is, AMAPR runs a lot of Formula type classes, why the hell don't they give Buell a fair shot at being competitive?
Buell is the only American sport bike, and it has interest for a lot of Harley-Davidson guys. So letting Buell run competitively would bring in more fans, more teams and more riders. What's up AMAPR? If it isn't the reason Blake lists as the heading for this message string, what is it? |
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