| Author |
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Jssport
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 06:07 pm: | 
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Ok, let's play this game.....
How about a better criteria for race classes...
MSRP
that means Firebolts would have to race against ? |
Jssport
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 06:20 pm: |
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So you buy a Firebolt to race,....
and then you have to buy ??
(let's just skip the engine as there is not enough room here, I won't even mention the needed short stroke cranks made of un-obtanium and having to bore the cases)
- Swingarm + Chain Conversion kit
- Full Fairing Kit
- Front Brake system
These 3 things alone cost how much ??
(if you could even buy them)
I like Buells, my next bike might be a Lightning....
but if'n I wanted to go racing.... it be an in-line four, or more likely (for me) a RS125/TZ125.
- |
Davegess
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 06:20 pm: |
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One of my favorite "formulas" for deciding a racing class was the old pre WWII formula one car class. They had a maximum weight. Thats right maximum. Prior to this class fast cars were big cars so to limit speeds they set a maximum weight.
Of course Mercedes and Auto Union used aircraft technology to make light weight supercharged cars that were not only faster than anything that came before the HP/weight ration was unseurpassed for 20 some years after the formula was change to dispalcement. |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 06:38 pm: |
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>>>.... old pre WWII .
Can I get an AMEN for our Elder Statesmen? I would have NEVER known that.  |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 12:32 am: |
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That old Norton is cool, duel 6 piston calipers. If you build it too far out of reach it will be illegal.
Oh yeah, Zippers build a 1950cc motor but wheel hop on decel and tracability on accel would not work as well as 4 cyls IMHO. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 01:04 am: |
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Jss,
No head start needed. Just let them race. Pretty friggin simple. Let the Duc 748/749RS and the XB9R race. Oh, you don't even race? Funny how you seem so authoritative and expert on the subject. You must have friends or relatives associated with AMAPR.
You apparently think that the bikes running in AMAPR Supersport are taken straight from the showroom floor to the track. You think they use the stock fairing, brakes, suspension, sprockets/chain? I'm glad you so much enjoy your fantasy world of Japanese IL4 racing. I'm not sorry that I don't share your delusion. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 01:42 am: |
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- Swingarm + Chain Conversion kit
- Full Fairing Kit
- Front Brake system
These 3 things alone cost how much ??
(if you could even buy them)
You can buy the swingarm & chain conversion thru Hals, its around $1800. They also sell the full fairing body work for about $750-800. Dont know about the brakes but thats a moot point as Buell required the Hals team to go back to the single perimeter brake system. That was a directive from higher up.
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Crusty
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 06:17 am: |
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quote:Pretty friggin simple. Let the Duc 748/749RS and the XB9R race. Oh, you don't even race? Funny how you seem so authoritative and expert on the subject. You must have friends or relatives associated with AMAPR.
Blake, are you an AMAPR level racer? What makes you such an Authority? AMAPR gave Buell and Ducati their own race. It was called Pro Thunder. The majority of fans who attended the races found it boring. You sound like a guy who bitches that NASCAR won't let a Saturn SW-1 race in Winston Cup.
For the record, I loved the Pro Thunder races, although I didn't like the fact that the 748s won so much. But that's racing.
You act as if the heads of AMAPR are Satanic Demons out to destroy Truth, Justice and the American Way. I don't think so. I think that they're trying to put on the best series they can. Have you ever met Scott Hollingsworth or Merrill Vanderslice? Have you sent them letters stating your position?
If AMAPR is so Anti-American, why did they let the VR-1000 race? It wasn't even close to a production bike. Harley wasn't producing a street bike that even vaguely resembled anything on the VR. I guess that AMAPR was sucking up to their Japanese benefactors, right?
Oh, before you ask, I am not a Pro level racer, I wasn't even a fast club level racer, when I did race; and I have no friends or relatives in AMAPR. But my opinion's worth as much as yours.
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 07:06 am: |
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quote:You apparently think that the bikes running in AMAPR Supersport are taken straight from the showroom floor to the track. You think they use the stock fairing, brakes, suspension, sprockets/chain? I'm glad you so much enjoy your fantasy world of Japanese IL4 racing. I'm not sorry that I don't share your delusion.
Ask Jamie Stauffer how close to stock his R6 was at Daytona and Fontana this year.
There are plenty of racing urban legends about how the factory teams allegedly skirt the rules, but the truth is probably much more boring.
(Message edited by josé_quiñones on May 22, 2003, %time) |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 07:20 am: |
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Let's play with the rulebook:
Blake wants the XB's and the 749's in Supersport. Fine, change the rules as follows:
Supersport
0-600cc 4-stroke four and twin cylinders
600cc-750cc 4-stroke liquid-cooled twin cylinders
700cc-1000cc 4-stroke air-cooled twin cylinders
I'll give you that if you let me take the following lines (in bold) OUT of the rulebook:
3. Homologation.
(a) Supersport and Superstock motorcycles require homologation. See Supersport and Superstock Approval.
b) Superstock twin cylinder motorcycles are exempt from the approval process.
...
...
5. Superstock/Supersport Twin cylinder
Twin- cylinder 4-strokes are allowed the following modifications:
(a) Motorcycles must meet the following requirements in addition to the requirements in General Equipment Standards. All other modifications are unrestricted. Supersport/Superstock twin-cylinder motorcycles are exempt from the approval and claiming process.
(b) Weight Minimum weight - 380 pounds (except liquid-cooled nondesmodromic which has no minimum)
(c) Tires must meet Superstock requirements.
Are you sure you want to make that trade Blake? The net result would be the same, no Buells in AMA Supersport, because Buell will not come out with a street legal RR version suitable for racing. They should have come out with one for FUSA purposes, but they have not done that either, so dealers wishing to race an XB have to call Hal's to get a decent chain conversion and a Fairing.
Ducati can make the case that they belong in SS, because they sell a bike that meets the requirements here and in Europe, never mind that they are not competitive over there either.
Buell can not. Their current FUSA Sportbike class racer belongs in the new AMA Formula Extreme. But there is a reason they are not there, and I'm amazed nobody has connected the dots. The FAQ the AMA released has a key word that unlocks the mystery. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 07:35 am: |
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Regardless of the fact that I disagree with Blake's assessment of AMAPR as a Japanese crime ring, top-class racing costs money & modifications. Whether it be an R6 or an XB9R, competetive bikes (be it in FUSA or AMA) will MOSTLY be heavily modified for even supersport levels. Machined heads, modified valve seats, modded forks, new shock, new chain & sprockets, aftermarket bodywork, rearsets, jet kits, pipe, blueprinted engine, etc. These things all cost money, regardless of motorcycle make or model.
Yes, it likely costs more to race a Buell in, say, FUSA sportbike. Building a 115-RWHP Buell will cost more than building a 115-RWHP CBR600RR. But, the person racing the Buell in FUSA sportbike or thunderbike will be riding said bike because they WANT to.
Also, as noted above, the XB can be raced with the stock front brake. Also, I've seen lots of buells on the track still running the belt final drive. Lastly, the aftermarket bodywork comment applies to all machines also. If you really want to, though, you can just mod the stock fairing yourself.
If you want to race cheap, there are ways. Roadracing world is full of older-model racebikes for sale CHEAP. These can also be found at various internet sites (such as WERA or AMAsuperbike.com). Generally speaking, though, don't expect to be cheap AND fast.
Gotta go. Merrill's coming over for lunch. 
Ben |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 09:12 am: |
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Jos�,
That is a pretty good tweak and is starting to sound pretty reasonable. The only change I would make would be to give a pushrod engine a little more slack, maybe enough to bring the XB up to 1200 cc's. Or keep them at 1000cc's but allow more tweaks and exotic materials in the valvetrain.
Based on the horsepower numbers I have been seeing the carefully tuned 600's hitting, that would seem to make the bikes pretty close.
I don't know the man, but my gut feeling is that if Erik Buell had some level of assurance that releasing a production XB12S would allow it to race against the 600 inline fours, you would see one coming out pretty quickly. |
Jscott
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 10:10 am: |
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After hearing all sides of the issue (thank God Jose piped up - I miss his insight), I have come to the conclusion that if you don't agree with Blake you must be associated with AMAPR.
(Message edited by JScott on May 22, 2003, %time) |
Rick_a
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 01:25 pm: |
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Insight or opinion? |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 05:57 pm: |
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Jose,
Of course...all those stories are legends. Why, it even says so in a quote from a Japanese factory tuner on the AMAPro Racing web page... OK, I suggest you go check out the North Pole Santee Claus page too.
I know the absolute truth behind some of those legends, and they cheat in every way they can possibly get away with. And the AMAPR group doesn't much give a damn...God help you if you're a privateer or a small company, though.
If you want the real truth, don't read the AMAPro Racing pages, read Roadracing World. In fact, in the latest issue, read the comments from Rich Oliver regarding the AMA lying about the two year notice before rules changes regarding the 250 class. Same deal as mentioned before on this web site about the Superstock class. Amazing how much fact there is in these "legends".
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Smadd
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 08:18 pm: |
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I read that article and thought "what a crock"... I know that the "little guy" doesn't stand a chance. I've seen situations where the factory guys received "unobtainium" factory parts that a privateer wouldn't be able to get his hands on no matter what he tried. Not *once* did I pay attention to the fact that I was reading an "official" AMA Superbike page!!! "HELLO? Steve... are you in there???" LOL Thanks Anony... for pointing that out to those of us who are less observant. I'll try to be more careful and actually look at the source of what I'm reading next time.
Steve |
S320002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 10:36 pm: |
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Let's distill this down to the essence. AMAPR could adjust their rules to allow several more brand to compete.
They don't.
Why?
We all know Blake's opinion.
There certainly appears to be some truth to it.
My Opinion for the "stock classes":
Since RR versions from the factories are race bred from the factory why not yank the lights and mirrors and turm'm loose. If the factory makes a race ECM and muffler for sale to the public fine. If the factory makes a full fairing okay. Brakes and suspension parts remain box stock. If it doesn't come from the factory and isnt't available to the public it's a no go.
Pick a couple of tracks, one speed and one handling, pick a couple of test riders, if lap times are within a couple of seconds the bikes go in the same class.
If AMAPR wants a "NASCAR" style class they could call it Japanese Superbike. They could limit it to factory riders so the big bucks guys wouldn't have to whine about "back markers".
Ah screw it! Racing has never been as much fun since big bucks promoters stuck their noses into it! They can have it! I'd rather watch the no-name locals racing because it's fun! Now that's what racing is all about.
Maybe I'll come back when I don't feel like I'm hollering down a well.
Greg
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 07:18 am: |
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Evan Williams is in on the conspiracy too? He wrote the article for the AMA website, but he also writes for AMASUPERBIKE.COM.
quote:God help you if you're a privateer or a small company, though.
Apparently God was with Jamie Stauffer when his privateer R6 recorded the fastest lap in the AMA Daytona Supersport race this year, when he finished 7th in that race ahead of some really BIG names. Then God went cross country with him as he went over to Fontana on the same bike and qualified 10th and was running 9th (again ahead of some big names) before tangling with a backmarker.
He impressed enough people to get a factory ride on Aaron Yates' Yoshimura GSXR600 Factory bike.
God's pretty powerful, I didn't know he had a soft spot for Australian Motorcycle Racers, but not small companies......
BTW, Buell is not a small company, that dog won't hunt anymore.....
Greg,
I agree. Race what you sell, sell what you race.
The current AMA supersport/superstock regulations are tighter than FUSA's Sportbike and the World Supersport classes, so they are closest to the ideal.
Buell does not race what they sell or sell what they race with, so they should not be allowed in Supersport. The new Formula Extreme is a perfect fit.
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Smadd
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 08:33 am: |
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"Apparently God was with Jamie Stauffer when his privateer R6 recorded the fastest lap in the AMA Daytona Supersport race this year, when he finished 7th in that race ahead of some really BIG names. Then God went cross country with him as he went over to Fontana on the same bike and qualified 10th and was running 9th (again ahead of some big names) before tangling with a backmarker."
And the 30 or 40 other "privateers" behind him? He did well... but what's your point? Yes... some riders are more talented than others and get noticed... and some have more money to spend than others. But I think your one example is a weak argument and hardly the norm. As a rule (AMAPR's rules!), the factories and their riders are extremely favored... by all measures.
Steve |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 01:41 pm: |
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Blake, are you an AMAPR level racer? What makes you such an Authority?
LOL. No far from it. I'm barely a recreational racer. But I do know the basics of prepping a bike and what is required to get it through tech. Unlike Jss, who throws out ignorant statements as though they were fact. Go back and read them yourself. If one wishes to to toss out smart ass comments and egregiously inaccurate information here, fine, but one better be prepared to face the fire. I'd expect the same if I were spouting a bunch of ignorant falsehoods along with glib sarcasm.
AMAPR gave Buell and Ducati their own race. It was called Pro Thunder. The majority of fans who attended the races found it boring.
Bullshit. I attended the 2001 Daytona Pro Thunder Race. The people packing the stands around me were heard to remark... "Those are American bike?! COOL!" "Those bikes sound awesome! This is way better than watching a bunch of inline fours whining around the track in a stretched out conga line."
You sound like a guy who bitches that NASCAR won't let a Saturn SW-1 race in Winston Cup.
Don't know anything about that. Don't care. NASCAR WC is no longer a "stock car" racing series. It is a spec car series and other than the traditional name, doesn't pretend to be anything but.
For the record, I loved the Pro Thunder races, although I didn't like the fact that the 748s won so much. But that's racing.
Kinda funny. When Buell finishes a close second, they are ridiculed by some (not saying you) for not being able to win "their own series." That is called integrity in my book... being willing to sponsor an unbiased, fair racing series. On the other hand, if Buell had won the season championship, those same ignorant detractors surely would have discounted the win, saying that "Buell had to pay to win their own series to be able to win a race." I guarantee you would have heard that. It's probably better that Buell finished a point or two back in 2nd place. The racing was actually quite close. A great Aussie ex world superbike rider made all the difference for Jeff Nash's team last season. Ask Jeff what he thinks of AMAPR. I've spoken to him and quoted his statements here in this very discussion. Check the archives.
You act as if the heads of AMAPR are Satanic Demons out to destroy Truth, Justice and the American Way.
They are liars. They are blatantly biased in favor of one specific group. They are uneven in handing out penalties for rules violations, favoring leniency for the factory teams versus disqualification for privateers. I say that pretty much proves corruption. I've also seen lies and willful misrepresentation in print that are attributed directly to AMAPR executive management. Read Road Racing World. AMAPR doesn't look out for the racers. They prefer to look out for their own pockets first, everything else second. People die because of their self serving priorities. Thank God for RRW and editor Ulrich for starting the air fence fund!
I don't think so. I think that they're trying to put on the best series they can. Have you ever met Scott Hollingsworth or Merrill Vanderslice? Have you sent them letters stating your position?
You are naive and blind then. Would not a series with more competitors be better? Why then does AMAPR announce that they will be letting Ducati 748RS machines into Supersport, but then rescind that months later. Why not let Ducati race in Supersport where their 748/749RS belongs? Why not let other configurations of machines race in Supersport. If Buell had come out with an XB12RR, comparable in all performance respects to the Japanese IL4's, why not let it race in SS? WHY NOT?? There is only one answer... Japan Inc. would piss themselves into an hysterical panic. They cannot withstand the competition to their well established marketing tactics. Why? Because if an American or Italian twin were to win a Supersport race, it would blow their bullshit ploy, that displacement is the only valid ruler for a racing series and a performance class, it would blow that bullshit ploy right out of the water. You disagree? If the Speed TV technical commentator were to actually explain to the audience why it is perfectly fair for a 1200cc machine with one throttle body, two cylinders, air-cooling, pushrod valve actuation, four valves, and half the rev limit to compete with 600cc, four cylinder, 16-valve, 4-throttle body, DOHC, water-cooled bikes, the entire marketing situation would be turned on its head. Japan would risk losing market share. You disagree?
If AMAPR is so Anti-American, why did they let the VR-1000 race?
Did AMAPR exist when the VR was homologated? 
It wasn't even close to a production bike. Harley wasn't producing a street bike that even vaguely resembled anything on the VR. I guess that AMAPR was sucking up to their Japanese benefactors, right?
I wanted to go to my local Yamaha dealership and purchase a YZFR7 last year. Couldn't get one. Before the RC51 came out, I wanted to go to my local Honda dealer and purchase an RC45, before that, an RC30. Couldn't get one of either. What was your question again?
Oh, before you ask, I am not a Pro level racer, I wasn't even a fast club level racer, when I did race; and I have no friends or relatives in AMAPR. But my opinion's worth as much as yours.
Agreed. But opinions are a dime a dozen. Cogent, logical, fact based analysis is a rarety, just ask Jss.
José,
Ask Jamie Stauffer how close to stock his R6 was at Daytona and Fontana this year.
Don't need to...
quote:“They are talking about helping me with parts and bikes, and some are talking about maybe having me join their team,” said Stauffer Friday before adding that the Yamaha factory team gave him some parts for his R6 in the week prior to the Fontana race.
From RRW
When was the last time a privateer finished on the podium let alone won a dry race in AMAPR SS? Never? I'm not surprised. Jamie set fastest lap, at Daytona? Ever hear of leapfrog drafting? Do you actually contend that the factory bikes don't have significant parts and power advantages over the privateers? Get real JQ.
But that type of bias in favor of the Japan Inc. factory teams is just one of the points comprising the preponderance of evidence indicting AMAPR. How about selective rules enforcement? Why only lightly penalize Tommy Hayden when privateers with less serious violations of tech rules were completely disqualified from races? The record is crystal clear. RRW called them on it. Why the favoritism for a factory cheater? He should have been disqualified. The proof is in the ensuing race results. Where did formerly dominant undefeated three time 2003 Superstock race winner and series leader Tommy Hayden finish in the race immediately following the discovery of the cheating? Answer... Out of the lead pack, almost 8 seconds back in 4th place. Where he previously had enough power to evade the draft pass crossing the finish line at Daytona, where he previously finished seconds in front of his nearest competitors, now he is in 4th place and almost 8 seconds back. Yeah, that was just one race. We'll wait for the results of the rest of the season now that the cheating was exposed before making the final call on this one, but it looks pretty obvious to me.
Why did AMAPR tech evaluators supposedly wait a month (until the next race event at California Speedway) to inspect Hayden's race winning engine? AMAPR claimed some lame excuse about AMAPR officials not having time to do it sooner. What a crock of shit. What kind of an organization waits to tech the dominant undefeated race winning bike until the next event, a month later? And then when they do discover an egregious violation of a basic and long standing rule, why do they merely slap the wrist of the cheating team? Anything less than complete disqualification in that case is a farce. Yet people seem to simply accept it. The corruption and bias has become so entrenched it is now apparently the expected modus operandi of AMAPR and is apparently expected by all who participate in the series. How friggin sad.
Why not let Ducati and Buell race their sport bikes in SS? Why Not? Still haven't heard a valid answer to that question.
Race what you sell is fine for Supersport. It falls out the window for Superbike or Formula Extreme. Those bikes are in no way even close what anyone can purchase of the showroom floor.
Can anyone explain to me how a stock 636cc Superstock machine can turn qualifying lap times that would put it on the third row in the grid of Superbike? Race what you sell. That's rich. Please tell me where I can purchase a 130+ RWHP 600cc Honda CBR600RR or any of the other 600cc repliracers. Can you explain how the Japanese factories manage to get a 30%+ increase to horsepower with just a chip and exhaust mod? You wanna explain that to me, cause I don't see how they do it. And don't give me any BS about the factory supersport bikes not making that kind of power. They do. The lap times prove it. Race what you sell? Yeah, that'd be nice. I wish they would do that too.
Buell is not a small company as a motorcycle manufacturer? Compared to Japan Inc.? 
JQ,
How can you not see the evidence, the lies, the bias, the exclusionary tactics, the ever shifting rules geared to benefit only Japan Inc.. I mean really, it boggles my mind how you cannot see it. Do you really think it is in the best interest of the fans, the racing, or even a reputable for-profit race sanctioning body to exclude viable competition???? How is that a good thing for anybody except Japan Inc. and their payola beneficiaries? Answer... It isn't.
You think AMAPR rules are more strict and fair than FUSA? Maybe if they were rigorously enforced. FUSA makes enforcement simple. They recognize the reasonable limitations to fine tuning the performance of a stock motorcycle. Instead of worrying about each and every minute detail of engine design/modification they place limits on the actual performance of the bikes. THAT is BRILLIANT from where I sit. Cheat all you want, put in Ti valves, whatever you like, just don't be boosting performance more than 15% over the best stock bike in the class. There is still an advantage to the wealthier participants. They can afford the big power producing modifications that result in a wider more generous power-band. Conceivably they could enter a 600cc IL4 that makes right near 115RWHP from 10,000 to 16,000 rpm. That would give them a big advantage over a bike that peaks and just tickles 115 RWHP at 13,500 rpm. FUSA has got the right rules. They don't need any rigorous mostly unenforceable tech rules. All they need is a dynomometer. It really is genius. As the power of class leading stock bikes goes up, FUSA will adjust the HP limit accordingly.
The AMAPR rules are not more strict, they are simply more complicated. Too bad they are not adequately enforced. Rules without rigorous enforcement become meaningless.
And yet, regardless... why not let Ducati and Buell race their Supersport caliber bikes? WHY...NOT? |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 02:40 pm: |
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This may be a stupid question, but in the AMA there(years ago) used to be a rule about claiming winning bikes. Like $10,000 or something like that. The intention was to keep it realistic. Is there anything like that these days? |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 03:52 pm: |
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quote:Do you actually contend that the factory bikes don't have significant parts and power advantages over the privateers?
No, what I'm saying is that the differences are not as great as you claim, and a properly prepped privateer bike with an exceptional rider can definetly be competitive, as Jamie "Allmighty" Stauffer proved. BTW, he got the parts from Yamaha AFTER Daytona, based on the way he rode there.
quote:The proof is in the ensuing race results. Where did formerly dominant undefeated three time 2003 Superstock race winner and series leader Tommy Hayden finish in the race immediately following the discovery of the cheating?
Get you facts straight. The penalty happened at Fontana, the second race of the year. His heads were checked prior to the third race of the year at Sears Point. They were found to be OK. He won that race anyway!
At Road Atlanta, regarded as a horsepower track, he finished fourth, in front of a bunch of riders familiar to Buell race fans who were on their GSXR 750's.
Jamie and Tommy both prove my point, a very good rider on a very well prepared bike can be competitive and win events against larger bikes in the case of Tommy or be competitive against factory backed efforts in the case of Jamie.
quote:Where he previously had enough power to evade the draft pass crossing the finish line at Daytona
He did not evade it, he got a big enough gap through the infield and the last chicane to barely eek out the win.
quote:Why not let Ducati and Buell race their sport bikes in SS? Why Not? Still haven't heard a valid answer to that question.
Race what you sell is fine for Supersport.
You answered your own question.
Ducati, sure let them in, they race what they sell. The Ducati 749 meets all the AMA/FIM homologation and technical requirements to be legal in World Supersport, but none are entered this year. Could it be that they are not competitive enough in their current form and they don't want to bother putting the effort to finish 15th every weekend?
In the AMA, Ducati gets a crack at the 600's in the new Formula Extreme. If that's not good enough for them, they can go race FUSA Sportbike. Why is AMS Ducati not racing in FUSA this year? Did you ask Jeff about that Blake?
An XB9R set up under the same rules (stock bore and stroke, approved for homologation, non carbon fiber fairing, eligible for claiming of parts, etc.)as the rest of the AMA supersport bikes would be fun to see out there, but seriously, it would not be competitive, no matter who's on it.
Blake, your sense of history is very short. Ever since the AMA has been sponsoring races, they have been accused of favoring whatever manufacturer is dominating the marketplace at the time. The AMA has been accussed of favoring Indian, Harley, Triumph, Norton, BSA, or V-twins at one time or another, based on what the dominant manufacturer happens to be at the time.
The sportbike market is currently dominated by 600cc and 1000cc Inline four cylinder water cooled bikes. It is only natural that the rules reflect that reality. To try to give Buell or any other manufacturer special breaks to make them competitive is the quickest way to cause the dominant manufacturers to leave the series and leave it as a shell of its former self.
The FIM has learned this the hard way with their WSBK rules. Who do they look for guidance?
Superbike rules must be more simple and less expensive, like the Superbike rules in force in the United States, Japan or Great Britain.
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Jssport
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 05:06 pm: |
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Damn Blake,
I must of burrowed deep under your skin....
So which part hit closest to home ? |
Jssport
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 05:08 pm: |
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.... I also imagine that while I no longer race, I have been around road racing and have followed it far longer than yourself....
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Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 06:31 pm: |
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JQ,
Thanks for pointing out my error re Hayden's penalty. My bad.
So Tommy can win Daytona, the biggest HP track there is. But when he loses at Atlanta it's because it's a HP track?
You still haven't answered the question. Lots of excuses and rhetoric, but no answer. The trap speeds at the big tracks don't lie. The factory bikes have it in spades over the privateers.
Jss,
No one get's under my skin. I just like to let people know how I feel about their actions. Crusty asked, so I answered. If you have something constructive to add here fine. If not, why waste your time? Your decision. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 07:42 am: |
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Of course a factory rider on a factory prepared factory bike has an advantage over a privateer effort, they say so themselves.
The advantages that factory teams have in terms of testing, maintenance and quick access to any part they want straight from the factory is a hard mountain for a privateer to climb. But the differences are not so great that rider skill can not overcome them on a privateer bike.
Jamie "Allmighty" Stauffer proves you wrong. He was justly rewarded with a factory ride.
Did you watch the Daytona Race? Tommy BARELY won, he won because a big enough gap through the last chicane that the 750's could not get to him in time. Had they been closer at the last chicane he would have finished fourth. He won, then won two more times before Road Atlanta.
So Tommy has prove you wrong that a factory rider on a factory ride can give up over 100cc's and still beat privateers on their well prepped privateer 750's five times already, two times last year on a real 600, three times this year on the 636.
Like I said, Ducati sells what they race, I would not have a problem with them being in Supersport, Buell does not, so they should not be allowed in on that basis alone.
What about Jeff over at AMS? Did he ever tell you why he's not racing FUSA Sportbike this year? You keep dodging that question. |
Smadd
| | Posted on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 08:22 am: |
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A couple of years ago, and it was no secret (the grandstand announcers even talked about it!), Honda developed a shock for Miguel solely to deal with the harsh conditions on Daytona's banking. A one-time-use rear shock!! The cost that comes to mind is $50,000. I might be wrong on that. Did anyone else have a chance at that shock? The only comment I'll make about that is that the bike he rode might have resembled a showroom bike, but that's all. You others can discuss the rules that might have applied. I think it's great that some privateers do well and are recognized. Every factory rider started somewhere, right? |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 12:58 pm: |
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I do recall hearing about that shock. I dont remember if it was $50,000, but it was an astronomically high figure. |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 03:05 pm: |
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>>>but it was an astronomically high figure.
In the world of racing $50,000 is not astronomically high. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 04:01 pm: |
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JQ,
On one hand you say it's okay for the factory bikes to have an advantage, to have access to special parts that others cannot get. That they are racing what they do not sell. Then on the other hand you say Buell should not be allowed to race in SS because they wouldn't be racing what they sell. Pick one.
Regardless, you still haven't answered the question wrt Ducati 748/749RS machines being excluded. I'm glad that you agree that they should be able to race in AMAPR SS. Now answer the question... Why not let them race? Why not allow a twin cylinder bike more displacement so it can be competitive with the 4-cylinder SS bikes of Japan? You already know the answer.
So Tommy Hayden is some kind of wunderkind racer now? Is that really borne out by the facts, you know, his performance in other racing series relative to his competition? Does anyone else find it interesting that Suzi and Kawi are cooperating corporately, and now a Kawi 636cc machine is cleaning the field of a gaggle of Suzi 750s? Kevin Cameron finds it interesting. He even states in print in the current (June 2003) issue of Cycle World, page 100, that "It would be interesting to know how stock 600s can lap faster than stock 750s." Actually he's refering to the fact that the Daytona Supersport race was faster than the Superstock race.
You say it is the superior skill of the racers in Supersport versus Supersport that makes a difference. That is a very valid point. But it is not enough to explain the situation entirely. The evidence points to something more. The factories are not racing stock motorcycles. You don't get 30% or more added power from a chip and pipe. Race what you sell? Yeah, that'd be nice.
Race what they sell? That position doesn't hold water. No factory team in any AMAPR road racing series is racing anything remotely close to what they sell. They don't sell 130+RWHP 600's José.
Why not let Ducati and Buell race in SS what they sell? Why give IL4's a blatant advantage over twins in Superbike, Supersport, and Superstock? Why increase displacement 33% for IL4's in Superstock for 2004 while holding displacement for Buells and other twins the same? Why kill Pro Thunder? Why not make Japan Inc truly race what they sell? Why only slap the wrist of a factory team who blatantly violated longstanding well understood rules? Why continually lie about their intent to change/not change class rules?
There is only one answer... |
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AMA Pro Racing Seeks to Please Japanese Benefactors 
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