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Benm2
Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

because they'd be competing against the same competetion you say they deserve. In addition, Kawasaki & Yamaha will be competing in a faster class on slower machinery. Why isn't it okay for Buell?
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Blake
Posted on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 11:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

It is perfectly fine for Buells to compete in Superstock too if that is what they desire. That however in no way detracts from the fact that Buell twins and Ducati 748/749's or 1000SS's should NOT be EXCLUDED from Supersport.
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 02:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Case closed... AMA Pro Racing admits their intense commitment to sucking off the Japanese Factories... and swallowing.


Quote:

4/23/2003
AMA Pro Racing Announces 2004 Road Race Class Structure

From a press release issued by AMA Pro Racing:

Reflecting the changing motorcycle marketplace, needs of the manufacturers, benefit to racers and, most importantly, the interests of fans, AMA Pro Racing has revised its class structure for the AMA U.S. Superbike Championship. The new class structure will be implemented beginning with the next racing season.

"The task of developing an all-new class structure is an extraordinarily complex process and it is impossible to satisfy everyone," said Scott Hollingsworth, CEO of AMA Pro Racing. "Our primary objectives are to deliver the best possible show to our fans while focusing on the market development of professional motorcycle racing in the United States."
The new classes include Superbike, Supersport, Formula Xtreme and Superstock and are outlined as follows:

Superbike:

900cc-1000cc four-stroke, any number of cylinders

Supersport:

600cc four-stroke, twin and four cylinders

Formula Xtreme:

600cc four-stroke, four cylinders

750cc four-stroke, twin cylinders

250cc-330cc two-stroke. All highly modified

Superstock:

750cc-1000cc four-stroke, four cylinders

up to 1350cc air-cooled twin cylinders

This class structure has been approved by the AMA Pro Racing Board of Directors for 2004 season implementation. Technical rules within this class structure are subject to a 30-day public comment period upon publication and all AMA Pro Racing credential holders are invited to submit comments for consideration. New technical rules are expected to be issued in early May.

Merrill Vanderslice, AMA Pro Racing Director of Competition states the new classes represent a logical and equitable evolution of the current structure. "Each class was scrutinized to see that it makes sense to the racing community. We adjusted the Superbike class so it remains the premier class in our championship but also took a close look at each of the support classes. For example, we must objectively recognize the current state of two-stroke development but at the same time remain mindful of the needs of the small but loyal group that enthusiastically follows that particular class of racing."

Hollingsworth added, "Larger grids, expanded media opportunities and increased business opportunities will be the result of our new class structure. Additionally, we recognize that the structure set forth by AMA Pro Racing ends up being the world standard and we take that responsibility very seriously. AMA Pro Racing is the leading national sanctioning body for professional motorcycle sport in the world and our initiatives have impact around the globe. This new structure represents a good combination of classes that will set the stage for an entertaining, highly promotable show."


Frequently Asked Questions


Why are you eliminating 750s from the Superbike class?

The vision for the Superbike class is that it should represent the pinnacle of production-based competition motorcycles in terms of technical advancement. Currently, big-bore sport bikes (900cc-1000cc) reflect that ideal. Each participating manufacturer either produces (or will soon produce) a flagship model that fits into this class.

Modern 1000cc Superbikes are very fast. Have these machines become too fast?

While we’re allowing increased displacement for multis, we’re limiting the number of engine modifications in the interest of controlling speeds. Additionally, rider safety continues to be at the forefront of AMA Pro Racing’s objectives. To meet the challenge posed by ever-faster race bikes, we have taken many steps to enhance safety. This includes track changes at a number of locations, increased use of safety materials such as air modules, and the elimination of tracks that no longer meet our requirements for safety. We will continue to aggressively explore means to protect our riders.

The Supersport class appears to be relatively unchanged. Why?

The Supersport class continues to offer the closest racing with a large number of participants. It’s also a relatively inexpensive class and thus attracts a greater pool of riders and teams. Finally, middleweight sport bikes represent a tremendously large sales category for the manufacturers and fans enjoy seeing AMA Pro Racing riders competing on essentially the same machines anyone can buy. There was no reason to change this highly popular class.

Formula Xtreme seems to have changed the most dramatically. Please explain the thinking that went into the changes in this class.

With Superbike being based on 900cc-1000cc motorcycles there began to be too much similarity between it and Formula Xtreme. Additionally, the original vision of Formula Xtreme was to offer a class that encouraged the greatest amount of “creativity” among race bike builders and tuners. With broad equipment parameters and rules that allow for extensive modifications, this class will produce some very interesting machinery and provide a home for a large number of racers. The result will be highly entertaining racing and plenty of room for fan debate.

Considering its grid is made up largely of one brand, is there still a need for the Superstock class?

Absolutely. Until 2003, the Superbike class was primarily based on 750cc motorcycles and for the past two decades, 750s represented the best of sport bike design. With the emergence of lightweight, big-bore sport bikes that has changed, however there is still a devoted following of 750s. By keeping this class and expanding it to include multi-cylinder machines up to 1000cc (and continuing to include twins up to 1350cc) we will see increased participation among more riders and brands. This class allows minimal modifications and is the place for racers to establish themselves as they move toward the premier Superbike class.

Why has the 250 Grand Prix class been eliminated?

250 GP equipment has been incorporated into the new Formula Xtreme class which will allow aficionados of 250 racing to continue racing and, in fact, develop their bikes even further. We’ve created the opportunity for these bikes to continue competing at the national level.

Who makes the decisions regarding class structure and technical rules?

AMA Pro Racing personnel are the primary decision makers. For class structure, market conditions, product availability, racer input and the goal of positive growth and development of professional motorcycle racing represent some of the criteria that is considered. Road Racing Advisory Board recommendations are also taken into account. Class structure recommendations are subject to approval by the AMA Pro Racing Board of Directors. Technical rules are developed by AMA Pro Racing personnel, subject to a 30-day public comment period and approval by the AMA Pro Racing Board of Directors. This multi-level check and balance system helps to ensure a positive outcome of the process.

How long will this new class structure be in effect?

The horizon for this class structure is three to five years unless market conditions or technological development makes it obsolete in which case it may be adjusted or changed.

About AMA Pro Racing

AMA Pro Racing is the leading sanctioning body for motorcycle sport in the United States. Its properties include the AMA Supercross Championship, the AMA Chevy Trucks U.S. Motocross Championship, the AMA Chevy Trucks U.S. Superbike Championship, AMA Progressive Insurance U.S. Flat Track Championship and the AMA Red Bull Supermoto Championship. Nearly 2 million race fans attended AMA Pro Racing events during the 2002 season. For more information about AMA Pro Racing, visit www.amaproracing.com.




They sicken me. Anyone up for a mass Buell/Duc blitz on AMA Pro Racing headquarters?
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Benm2
Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 07:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

C'mon, Blake. Don't you think a 1350cc Buell could catch a supersport prepped GSXR1000? ;)

Oh well. Looks like you're right on target; the AMA doesn't seem to have any interest in racing anything other than I-4's.

Just as a side note, Mat Mladin spent last year whining about his 750's power deficit to the 1000cc twins. Now, he says his 1000 four doesn't have an unfair advantage over the 1000 twins. I hope that Eric beats his whining a** this weekend on that ancient 750.
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Jscott
Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 09:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I posted this on the "Something Stinks" page - I think this would be a better format, but what do I know?

Superbike: 750cc-1000cc four-stroke, any number of cylinders. Production based.

Supersport: 600cc four-stroke four cylinders;
750cc four-stroke twin cylinders; 1200cc four-stroke air-cooled twin cylinders.
Production based, Stock Displacement.

Formula Xtreme: 600cc four-stroke four cylinders; 750cc four-stroke twin cylinders; Unlimited cc aircooled twins and singles; 250cc-330cc two-stroke. All highly modified.

Superstock: Bye, Bye

Since now you have eliminated 2 classes 250GP and SuperStock, you can run 2 races for each class on the weekend.

SuperSport would be kickass with the 4 factory Japanese teams, possibly Triumph with their new 600cc Daytona, Ducati and their 749, and a FACTORY Buell team with the new fully faired 1200cc FireBolt - all going at it. It would definatley become the premiere class overshadowing SuperBike.

Maybe the Japanese teams would balk at the idea - but the AMA gave Harley a break with the VR1000.
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Jscott
Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 02:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Here is what Kevin Erion thinks of the new Formula Extreme class for 2004

http://www.cyclenews.com/ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=4656
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S320002
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 09:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Seems to me that a stock displacement (but maybe with a short stroke) XB Buell would fit nicely into the the Formula Xtreme class. Don't know if the AMA would go for it, but if they truly mean what they say about their vision for the class they should.

Greg
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Rick_a
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 10:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Seems to me that a stock displacement XB would get smoked in any boreXstroke configuration. So will the 250GP's. Sucks for them.
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Blake
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 11:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The point is moot. Buells are blatantly excluded from Formula Extreme. AMA Pro Racing sucks the big four's weewees.
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Kahuna
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 06:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

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Rick_a
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 01:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Well, I liked the 250GP, too. I found those races more interesting than the current standing classes. Not many people seem to care, though. 'Tis a shame.
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Blake
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 04:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Go Formula USA!!!
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S320002
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 04:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Anyone ever notice that every time Buell has a bike that just might be competitive the AMA class for that bike disappears?

RW750, RR1000 (Lucifer's Hammer), Lightning, Firebolt.

Greg (Conspiracy Theorist)
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Jscott
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 06:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Greg,
The AMA has not allowed the FireBolt in the class where it would actually have the best chance of being competetive - SuperSport. My feelings are that if Buell introduces a 1200 for 2004 they should allow it in SuperSport (I don't think they should give any displacement breaks, it should stay a true 1200) and it should be fully faired from the factory. How about an XB12RR?
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Benm2
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 09:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

How 'bout if Buell MAKES a 600-four? The existing lines need not be affected; for those who are fond of firebolts & lightnings, those stay as is. The rest of the chassis on the firebolt is on-par (or better) than that of the japanese I-4's, all it needs is an engine. There is no lack of engineering knowledge at H-D (or in the US for that mattter) to develop a 600-four. And, even if said bike cost alot more (think MV 750) people would buy it. Not as many as an R6, but that (on the street at least) would not be the target market. Niche-market it, like the MV, and charge accordingly. BUT, make it competetive, and play by the rules (i.e. actually sell them to the public). If such a bike were raced & was competetive, people would buy it. And, if it were "premium fitted" with componentry above that available on the big-four's bikes they would hold a little more "street cred", like Ducati has.

At some point, you need to fish or cut bait. The rules are clearly stacked, but who gets credibility? The company who bitches the rules are unfair, or the company who (1) bitches the rules are unfair and (2) makes a bike that complies and whips ass anyway?
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Blake
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 12:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Only a fool seeks credibility through conformance to the will of liars and puppets.

One who conforms to convention is doomed to mediocrity.
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Elvis
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 03:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Does a large displacement, air-cooled push-rod engine have an inherent advantage over a smaller, water-cooled Japanese design? If so, the Japanese, Italians etc. are free to take advantage of that larger displacement if the class remains.

What is AMA accomplishing by phasing out the class other than ensuring more boring competitions in the future? Have they ever justified their actions through any logical explanation? If so, I haven't seen it.
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Sportsman
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 08:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I know there is a bunch of pissed 250 riders out there. If somebody made a 330 kit for TZ's they'd be on backorder by now.
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Detroit
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 06:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

With AMA pro racing it seems the more things change the more they stay the same. I remember roadracingworld was pushing for ex-riders to get on the board to HELP racing.....What Happened?
I will watch Moto GP to get my gollies I guess.
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Benm2
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 08:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Here we go again. Thus:

1) Ducati is a bunch of fools for making a four to compete in MotoGP.
2) Honda is a bunch of fools for making the RC51.
3) Suzuki is a bunch of fools for making the GSXR750.
4) H-D is a bunch of fools for continuing to make air cooled pushrod engines & bikes, who's appeal is based on marketing & nostalgia.
5) Buell is a bunch of fools for sticking with the HD engine convention.
6) Ford/GM/Chrysler are all fools for deviating from big, gas-guzzling RWD V-8 cars when the Japanese started eating their lunch.

yadda, yadda, yadda

AMA Pro Racing is about business. Check the sales charts, the evil four sell lots of bikes in comparison to Buell. 600's in particular are sensetive to race-marketing. (win on Sunday, sell on Monday) The Evil Four (henceforth E-4) have spent YEARS continually refining and upgrading their offerings in that class, dating back to the original 600 Ninja & Hurricane models. The E-4 each produce new models in this class (and other sportbike classes) every 2-3 years that are significantly revised from the previous models. They do not seem to have particular concern about reusing tooling on existing production lines, they are concerned about developing machinery that WINS ON THE TRACK.

Buell is effectively an interloper in this regard. Buell has NOT invested heavily in developing racing models to compete in ANY existing classes. If I had sunk millions of dollars into racing and some new company proposed that the rules be modified such that their non-complying model could compete on the field I had helped build (the Japanese sweat too) I would be pissed. The E-4 have supported AMAPR for years.

If you want to see Buell's race, go watch Thunderbike. If you want to race yours, there are places to do it. If Buell (or HD) want to run on the main stage, the rules are there. Ducati, Aprilia, Foggy, the E-4, Proton, etc. have all had to revise their offerings to get competetive machinery.

I plan on racing my Buell, but NOT for glory. Frankly, the 600 classes in club racing scare the hell out of me. To run at the front, you need to be (1) nuts and (2) fast. As you look back in the fields, it seems there's just less option 2. Running at the front is 600 SS on a CLUB level requires more cash & time (and skill) than I have, and Buell racing lets me get on the track in smaller classes.

my witty quote?

If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.
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Elvis
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 09:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

My opinion is I'd love to see Buell develop a high-reving, efficient engine. If these race regulations are going to force that, maybe I should be glad.

When I remove Buell, Triumph, Ducati or any other specifics from my mind and just think about racing, I don't understand the AMA's actions, even though I might be glad that they could force Buell/HD to modernize.

If you imagine the first race ever run, it seems anything would go. As the race management realizes that certain bikes have advantages, they would work to limit the effect of those advantages. If someone puts a turbo charger on and starts winning races, the race management should put limits on the displacement of turbo-charged machines to prevent them from running away with it. If someone uses water-cooling, or a new valve arrangement that allows them to win races, those technologies should be limited or displacements on those bikes should be limited etc.

It's difficult. It's not as easy as drawing a line and saying every bike has to meet these simple limitations, but, in my opinion, it makes for much more entertaining racing. I would much rather see the AMA make the tough decisions it requires to keep three cylinder, two cylinder, water-cooled, air cooled, desmodronic, push-rod etc. on the track rather than choosing the elimination system that fits easiest on a 3 X 5 card. That has nothing to do with any manufacturer, it just has to do with a simple belief that more variety is more entertaining.

Now if Buell starts running away with races, or someone else develops a large displacement, push-rod engine that blows everybody away, I could understand that the AMA would want to restrict that class. As it stands now, it just seems they are limiting competition (and that makes for more boring races in my opinion).
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Grndskpr
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 09:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

One who conforms to convention is doomed to mediocrity

The word convention is defined as:

Sanctioned by or following custom; formal, not original

By this definition isnt Buell following the convention of HD, by using an engine design that is not original will they be doomed to mediocraty, isnt that the argument many people have made for some time now

Blake this is not ment to be mean, you did post the quote, and i believe there may be room for Buell to compete, but again they are not ready for the AMA, maybe its Buell or maybe its HD, but i think when the time is right and the efort is put forth, the AMA will allow Buell to compete at a higher level, but they need to be willing to compete at a factory level, do it right, and try to win(HD has yet to do this at a road racing level, in current history), not just get exposure, i believe the time is coming, but maybe the right people need to fix some other thing first before they worry about racing, of course this is MHO,
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Dynarider
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 09:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Soemthing I find interesting is if I compare Nascar to AMA. Ama is all about the bikes, at least thats what I seem to read. Seems like the riders get second billing & nobody really cares who is on what machine. But you do hear..Suzuki wins again..or Honda dominates championship race, etc.

In Nascar its all about driver promotion. Who goes out there actually thinking gordon is driving a chevy or martin is in a ford? These guys could go from chevy to ford to dodge & their fans would follow them, they dont give a rats ass what "make" of car they are using. Yea you do see some crap from manufacturers promoting their win but how much influence does Gordon winning at bristol have to do with some guy buying a Monte carlo??
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Rick_a
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 01:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

In the beginning the AMA had a little dog support class. Mildly modded streetbikes...Buells, Guzzis, Ducs, Triumphs, etc, put on a decent show and close racing. Then they let one big dog in. That was the beginning of the end. That I think is one major point.

The AMA is following a business plan. So be it.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 02:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

(I am not really here, traveling on business but I just have to sneak a post in here)...

The point is that Buell sport oriented streetbikes, both the old 1200 sportster engine and the new XB engines, make perfect sense. They work really well on the street, and decently on the track.

It also makes perfect sense to want to race a sport oriented streetbike of any kind (Buell included).

Saying a 1200cc aircooled pushrod twin should compete head to head with a 1000 cc water cooled overhead inline four is just stupid on the face of it.

That's all we are saying... that the rules the AMA are posting are at best stupid and inconsistent, and are probably not an accident.
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Rick_a
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 11:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Their plan is pure business...whether it's a mistake or not is purely a matter of personal opinion.

I think it stinks, but oh well.
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S320002
Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 08:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

"My opinion is I'd love to see Buell develop a high-reving, efficient engine."

I don't know what you mean by efficient, but Buell is one of the most fuel efficient performance motorcycles you can buy.

Greg
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Blake
Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 06:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Ben,

Do you work for or are you affiliated with AMA Pro Racing?

Why constantly change the rules, always in favor of one specific group of manufacturers. Get real. There is no good honest reason why AMA Pro Racing excludes Ducati and Buell from Supersport. Now they want a 1350cc Buell to compete against 1,000cc IL4's? Get real. That is not competition, not on the high speed tracks that the AMA runs. You are affiliated with AMA Pro racing aren't you.

Again.. It is the AMERICAN Motorcyclist Association Pro Racing.

Why not let AMERICAN motorcycles compete in a class where they are competitive? Why not? forget all the silly rhetoric. Answer that question. Why not let Ducati 749's compete in supersport? Why not? Answer that second question.
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Court
Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 09:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

>>>My opinion is I'd love to see Buell develop a high-reving, efficient engine.

Not me, that takes HUGE amounts of $$$ and talent.

I ride motorcycles, not race them.

I want to see Buell continue to devote resources toward making great RIDING motorcycles.

I've said it before, if Erik Buell decides to RACE on his terms, you'll know by recognizing his entry on the podium. Erik's level of "competitive spirit" parallels our own Aaron.

But, selling motorcycles, not racing purses, is what puts kidlets through school and cous cous on the table.

I love to watch racing and rank Turn 1 at Springfield or Sacramento and two of my most preferred vicarious thrills.

But, I am perfectly comfy (again, cognizant of the drain it would place on the corporate resources) to watch guys like Blake race at the Club Level and to follow all of our BadWeb BattleTrax Champs. Who'd ever thought Jose', Mikey2Buells and the likes of SuperDave would evolve to cult heros. I'd enjoy to watching MikeY "do" a parking lot as much as Jason Pridmore carve Sears Point.\

In addition, the AMA yielded it's credibility long ago in my mind. It's not WHAT they do, it's that they SAY one thing, then do another.

Call me easy to please......

Court
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Elvis
Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 04:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Court,

Sure I agree with you on a practical, rational level, but let's pretend we just had a few beers. Just between you and me. I'm sure Erik isn't reading this or anything..

Wouldn't it be great to be able to say that not only does Buell have the best, most innovative chasis in the world, but they also have the best, most innovative engine in the world?

Wouldn't you love to pick up a motorcycle magazine and read: "Wow! This is just the best bike ever made for riding the twisties!" without the inevitable "but the engine . . ." that always seems to follow?

Wouldn't you love to see Buell say to the AMA: "Go ahead and put any restrictions you want on the classes. Our bike is so good it will beat anything in its class."?

I can dream can't I?
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