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Aaron
| | Posted on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 04:26 pm: | 
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M2 Revision 3 (I never showed revision 2):
1999 M2 owned by yours truly
Thunderstorm heads prepped by Wes Brown at Cycle-Rama (a different set)
Ross custom pistons as specified by Wes
Andrews N83 cams
Mikuni HSR45
S&S roller rockers
Stock lifters with travel limiters
Force exhaust
Doggone it, I didn't realize that the tach pickup had screwed up until after I had unloaded the bike and put the dyno away. So I can't show torque or rpm, sorry. I shut it down at 7500 FWIW.
I only had one other pull this good and it's chart has a different problem. Weird, I didn't have the bike tied down in the back and the back got to hopping and the chart looks really choppy. I tied it down, did this pull, and rolled it off.
So Wes raises the bar again. Honestly, this one is a little "out there", not quite as streetable as revision 1 (115.5hp). It does run on pump gas, but it's on the ragged edge. The cams are pretty aggressive too, and there's a lot of seat pressure. Let's just say it's more finicky and can't be expected to last as long as rev 1, which I'll probably switch back to after Bonneville.
Not to say 120hp streetable on stock displacement with longevity isn't doable ... if you think that won't happen, you don't know Wes Brown. The man is obsessed with pushing the state of the art in this stuff, and he feels we're still a long way from being at any kind of limit. |
Peter
| | Posted on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 06:00 pm: |
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I wonder what he knows about setting up turbos..... |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 06:04 pm: |
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OHMYGOSH! |
Smadd
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 12:28 am: |
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If Revision I is anything like mine, longevity won't be a problem! I've put on 15,000 miles since Wes's work and it is running as strong as ever. It remains as tractable as ever (more so than stock)and doesn't use oil either.
Yes, Wes is certainly the real thing!
Steve |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 03:07 am: |
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Great googly-moogly! That is with the HSR42. I wonder what an HSR45 would do? 
I also assume that is a 4th gear run? |
Petel
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 04:00 am: |
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Bloody Hell!
That is some output. Nice :-)
Er! Blake,
He was using the `45 carb ;-)
Petel. 02 M2. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 05:41 am: |
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Thanks Petel,
Blake cannot read numbers this early in the morning. Cannot make café, would wake up the sleeping beauty.
Aaron,
You still have plenty of time! It seems like it would be way too easy to rig up a for-real ram air intake.  "Seems easy." heheh |
Ara
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 08:25 am: |
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Holy Cow, Aaron! That's an astounding result. Sure wish you'd captured the torque data, though, 'cause that probably would have been more amazing. Couple of questions: 1203 cc? Cost of Wes Brown's work?
Russ |
Aaron
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 09:15 am: |
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Thanks y'all ... yeah, I'm pleased with it too!
But there's more. There's always more. Just talk to Wes.
Russ, yeah, it's stock displacement except for the .010 service overbore. I'll refer you to Pammy or Wes for pricing on their work. IMO, it's worth it, that much I can tell you. At least I'm a happy customer. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 04:34 pm: |
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Aaron,
What compression ratio are you running?
Was that was 4th gear?
Wow. |
Aaron
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 10:16 pm: |
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I didn't take the time to measure it myself, but Wes mentioned something to me about it being just over 12:1. But then after that we had to take the valve pockets quite a bit deeper, so it came down some from there. Sounds like a lot I know, but remember, much of that is mitigated by the 64 degree intake close point. The above pull is on pump gas. I've ridden it around a bit and I can't hear any pinging. 'Course, I've got that Force pipe on there.
That particular pull is 5th gear. I did some 4th's and some 6th's and honestly they do about the same.
I alluded to a prior pull that broke 119, but was real choppy because the bike got to hopping (I didn't have it tied down) ... people keep writing to me and asking about the torque, so here it is ... just ignore the choppiness.
AW |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 11:36 pm: |
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That is one model torque curve. Over 80 FT-LBs from 3600 to 7500 rpm. Tickling 90 FT-LBs from 4500 to 7000 rpm. So how's it feel to have 100RWHP at a mile plus up?
That reminds me of something. You are concerned about high torque and possible failures in the drivetrain... you mentioned failure in a 100" engine that is similar to your LSR S2RR as one of the reasons you are concerned. Did that failure happen at Bonneville or somewhere closer to sea level? See what I'm getting at? |
Aaron
| | Posted on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 09:24 am: |
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That was Brian Perkins, an S&S engineer, running at Bonneville last October (4214'). Damn was he fast, right up until it broke. 180 on an unfaired 1650cc bike on gasoline.
Yeah, I'm pretty astonished at that torque curve ... pretty flat considering how much cam that is. |
Aaron
| | Posted on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 10:57 am: |
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Here's a good result from yesterday ...
1998 S1W owned by Mel Ortner
race kit exhaust system & ignition module
otherwise stock
Mel is a friend and neighbor of mine. This is a low mileage bike he recently purchased out of Texas. When he came over, it was running like sh*t. We yanked the carb (which had never been opened) and did the standard setup and put it on the dyno, and it ran perfect.
We didn't have the air cleaner on for this pull, anticipating making changes that it ended up not needing. His a/c (unknown brand, huge element oval thing) costed about 1.5hp, which is less than most cost.
An HD dealer had put the rear wheel on and adjusted the belt. You could play a tune on it, he had it so tight. It was a major part of the suspension. Amazing how many dealer techs just assume a Buell carries the same belt tension spec as a Harley and never bother to check the book. |
M2cyclone00
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 10:09 am: |
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Peter, Wes knows plenty about turbos as well. He's built some monster turbo engines.
Aaron, thanks for the posts. Amazing stuff!
Steve, my M2 has 10,000 miles on it since Wes put it together & it's running great. I would expect it to be reliable for a very long time, however, mine has Lightening cams. Speaking of longevity, I've run into a few Harley riders lately with incredible mileage. One has an 87 Sportster 1100 with 150,000 miles. The heads have never been off. Still has the original rings, pistons, valves, seats, seals, etc. He even has the original clutch, although he ran a Barnett in it for about 30,000 had problems with it, then put the original back. Of course, he's running with probably about half the hp as Aaron's!
Dave |
Smadd
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 10:24 am: |
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Dave, my clutch continues to pleasantly surprise me with it's durability. After 45,000 miles, I still have the original clutch. I think that's pretty good considering that the bike runs very strong, and I never baby it. I suppose though, that the lack of drag racing starts (slipping)has contributed to it's longevity. 150,000 miles! Amazing!
Regarding Wes and Turbos, Quite some time ago, I posted a dyno chart of a motor he built. It registered umpteen billion horsepower at the rear wheel. I'm sure it wasn't one HP less! That post didn't get one comment at the time. I imagine most readers might have thought it was a joke.
Steve |
Aaron
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 10:38 am: |
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The clutch's limit is really a torque thing, not a horsepower thing ... horsepower is torque x rpm and the rpm it's spinning has little to do with how much torque it'll hold.
FWIW, I experimented with some different configurations and I've got the stock clutch back in my M2, albeit with a slightly heavier spring. |
Torqd
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 11:04 am: |
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Well here is a few runs on my 88 ci buell motor. Well I finally have some numbers to post...I can't wait to get this thing back! This motor was built at Nallin Racing by one of my good friends and his chief mechanic Allen Simons. It is a 98 Buell S1W with 2001 Flywheels, Nallin stage 3 heads, Nallin/Millennium 88ci kit, Redshift 585 cams, Jims Lifters, Mikuni HSR 45, Buell Pro Series Air cleaner, Nallin/Force StreetFighter Exhaust, SE Dyna 2000 Ignition...I think that about covers it. It really hasn't been tuned yet. Allen ran it a few times and had to head to the Springfield Mile. Next week we should have a few updated numbers.
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Torqd
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 11:13 am: |
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well other than looking at my last post and seeing my horrible grammer (I am really awake.. I promise) and feeling pretty stupid...here is another sheet with a little wheel hop in the middle... but the hp is on the way up. We feel that 130 should not be out of the question. Might even throw in a set of 643's just to see what might happen.
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Aaron
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 11:18 am: |
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Congrats Frank! Man, those are fairly mild cams for an 88" motor, and Thunderstorm heads to boot, that's an outstanding result any way you slice it. Definitely do the 643's! |
Buelliedan
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 11:52 am: |
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Frank,
SWEET!!! Love the wheel hop!! |
Smadd
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 01:14 pm: |
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"The clutch's limit is really a torque thing, not a horsepower thing "
Makes sense to me. I'll continue to knock on wood. And when the clutch finally does go, I'll replace it with another stock unit.
Steve |
Torqd
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 01:53 pm: |
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ok now from GRAMMAR to spelling...I really need some sleep...anyway here is another dyno sheet from my friend Allen's brothers 95ci twin cam. It has Nallin stage 2 heads, stock cyl, Screamin Eagle 10.25.1 cast pistons, Jims roller rockers, Jims lifters, S&S 585G cams, E series exhaust, Zippers cv 44, Dyna 2000 ignition, etc.
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Rattler
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 12:11 pm: |
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***Congrats Frank! Man, those are fairly mild cams for an 88" motor, and Thunderstorm heads to boot, that's an outstanding result any way you slice it. Definitely do the 643's!***
My sentiments exactly Aaron..maybe it's just me, but I seem to notice Nallin using 585's exclusively...this is a lot more motor for that little bit of lift & duration...it would wake right up with .600 lift & better & more duration to get over 100% VE cylinder fill of those big bores. Anything above Andrews N80's ought to wake it up greatly.....although it's still really great numbers....heck, I'm hoping to get somewhere near those numbers on 80 inches with the racebike. Maybe Brian is considering the streetability aspect more than anything I'm sure versus BEST dyno numbers.
Dale A. |
Torqd
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 12:39 pm: |
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Well the cams are a left over set from my existing motor...not by choice...we will see... maybe the 643's. Would like to tune the 585's then swap cams...but I would like to have the bike to ride for the rest of the season...we will see. |
Smokin84
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 09:50 pm: |
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Rattler, The VE is over 100 now, 110 if my calculations are correct. There is almost certainly more power to be had from a "bigger stick", but if this thing wakes up anymore I'll be scared to ride it. who am I kidding, where are those 643s. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 12:39 am: |
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Hey Allen. Got your S1 on the road yet?  |
Smokin84
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 01:02 am: |
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Hey Blake, No not yet. I have been really busy, but at least I am working on it. It should be finished in a couple weeks. Maybe I should keep Frank's til I finish mine. We should take his to the track, he won't mind. How about it Franky?  |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 02:30 am: |
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You've got a deal!! Thing is, it's easier to ask for forgiveness that beg for permission. Frank will get over it. You can charge him extra for the off road break-in. OHR resurfacing will be ready to go in one week! ![:]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif)
Where is Scott in the National Standings? Is there a web site that shows the race results/standings? I couldn't find them on the AMA Pro Racing site. |
Rattler
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 10:56 am: |
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***Rattler, The VE is over 100 now, 110 if my calculations are correct. There is almost certainly more power to be had from a "bigger stick", but if this thing wakes up anymore I'll be scared to ride it. who am I kidding, where are those 643s. ****
Well, that certainly is good...especially for a street bike...I sure don't know if thats all this bike is for. I guess I look at some of these posts & forget about that most people are only concerned with a good street riding type of bike. I've been fiddling with all out engines for a little while now & forget thats not everyone's cup of tea in all cases. That engine would certainly reach 130% VE though.
BTW, what size valves is it using..standard Thunderstorm sized, or something approaching 1.90" on the intake size??
Dale A. |
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