| Author | Message | ||
     Debueller |
I have lived with the same issues with my '08 for several months......but not as bad as your. I have reason to believe there is a small vacuum leak at the throttle body/head. I am now in the process of replacing the rubber throttle body seals. Rotated the engine to insure I had enough room to do the job properly. Should have the bike back together in the next few days. I'm hoping this solves the issues..... (Message edited by debueller on July 07, 2010) | ||
| Thump4fun |
Debueller - Please be sure to post back your results. Although I would expect that since the shop cleaned my throttle body that any leaks with that would have been detected, I wouldn't be opposed to following suit if it fixes your issue. A vacuum leak was actually the first proposed solution by the shop, but once they saw the CEL code I'm not sure they looked at anything else that first time around. | ||
| Thump4fun |
Today's "pucker moment" brought to you by this stumbling/lurching problem... Out at lunch today I almost laid it down turning a corner from a stop light. Took off, leaned over, and bike missed/stumbled. The "oh my god, you're falling, put your foot down stupid" instinct took over, and then the bike decided to move again. Chalk up yet another "oh crap" moment with this problem. Last night I re-checked both the 77-connector and the 46-connector. Both were tightly sealed with no corrosion, overheating, or indication of any other problem. Putting them back together they still match up tightly. I also disconnected all wiring to my Stebel horn and my battery tender, just to rule out any problems in their wiring. No change with stumbling/stalling/lurching. Two local BadWebbers with mechanical experience have now offered to come over on Sunday and help me diagnose (thank you!!). Wish us luck and I'll report back for those that are following. | ||
| Chameleon |
What came of your BadWeB pow-wow? | ||
| Thump4fun |
Only one thing came out of it...that the lurching/stumbling that I'm complaining about while riding is actually "as designed". :-/ Yup...I've never encountered this problem since owning the bike for 2 years and 9,000 miles. But I took one of the other guys bikes out for a short ride (thanks John) and his was even worse then mine. And both guys told me that's just the way they ride. I still believe there's an underlying problem that's exhibiting this symptom as I've never had this happen until a few months ago, but since it's "normal" that explains why the dealer didn't think anything of it. *heavy sigh* However, we all agreed that the other problems are real and need to be dealt with - the loss of power when taking off from a stop, the erratic idle when starting up from time to time, and the high-speed idling when hot. Sadly, we couldn't get the VDS software to cooperate with my 2008 ECM (flashed with the latest 2010 code) so we didn't get a chance to see anything. I have a copy of that and am also going to try and get the latest copy of ECMSpy v2. Between the two of them maybe one will work and give me some additional clues. So the hunt continues... | ||
| Brother_in_buells |
Maybe it,s time for a phone call or e-mail to www.twinmotorcycles.nl and ask them! http://www.twinmotorcycles.nl/webshop/artikel.asp? guid=YXHFSC&aid=2443&cid=9640&s=&a= | ||
| Krueger08xb12s |
Have you checked the avf to see where its running?? It could be a lean/rich condition and manually resetting it to different values with ecmspy could narrow your search. | ||
| Sokota |
Possibly water in the fuel ? I have used Star-Tron ethanol fuel treatment with good results , Napa carries it . | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
just use the new tunerpro thats I have working. What it allows you to do is hook to the bike with a laptop then the ride it and record the ride. From there use the history table during playback. this playback is the exact wanted fuel values for the injectors on your bike to your engine and area. weather and ect. use these numbers in the playback set to history avg on each cylinder. what it will do is give you a chart to compare to the map that in the bike. what you will see is some values ar way off and others are very close. put these into the maps and save then burn this. The tunerpro has a release coming out in a week possibly. It also has the script started for my personal version to read and burn to the ecm. that version will be out next as a all in one program. no more need to use a dyno or a map made on a dyno which is only made to the dyno conditions not the realworld. in the real world it different than a dyno. a dyno gets you in the ball park if made on the bike. if made on a doner bike well that map is a guess and they hope its correct for your bike. Kind of a hit and miss thing. this tunerpro is an actual with the history auto tune feature built from all the sensors and runtime data in the ecm. not just a O2 sensor data on a dyno with an afr guage. There is much more to it than that. everything is available free to do this besides a cable. this is for tunerpro V5 beta on the home tab in tunerpro. I host the free adx bike communication files. Gunter host the xdf files for each ecm. this is the biggest break through in a while the ride and auto mapping (history graph pages) note in tunerpro if a page has different rpms than yours they are editable to match by the enduser. mike | ||
| Chameleon |
That's awesome! Thanks Mike and all involved! I'm gonna try it as soon as I get my bike back from the shop. She's getting a new fuel pump to (hopefully) resolve the LFL/CEL issue. | ||
| Metra6924 |
In another topic I wrote about the O2 sensor. My Uly has been having a surging / backfiring / failure to idle issue lately. As an experiment I unplugged the O2 sensor and started it. There was no change. That makes sense as the FI is running in open loop at idle and the O2 sensor does not come into play. When I reconnected the sensor and put the plug back in its clip, I had to move the Engine Temperature Sensor wire. It seemed a bit too close to the head anyway, so I routed it over the O2 sensor wire where it is now away from the head. When I started the bike, it had a nice even idle and after riding a while at 3500rpm or so, the surging was gone. Long story short - check the ETS wire, do the wiggle test, see if it changes anything. If the ETS is sending bad information to the ECM it can mess up the timing and mixture on the DDFI3 bikes. | ||
| Krueger08xb12s |
You can also just plug into ecmspy, start the bike up, and watch to see if the engine temp rises smooth like it should. | ||
| Thump4fun |
Metra - Thanks for the idea. My ETS wire was also laying on the edge of the head and routed oddly, particularly given there's a nice cable tray right there. So I unclipped it and re-routed it straight up and out, into the cable tray and across the engine. I was hopeful, but sadly it made no change. Krueger - ECMSpy doesn't fully function on 2008+ ECM & FI systems. With a couple of other BadWebbers we tried using DirectLink a couple weeks ago but that wouldn't connect either. I've ordered my own cable from Al at American Sportbike and am going to try DirectLink again myself to see what I can see. I've heard rumors about an ECMSpy v2 that works with 2008+, but have yet to find any download since the project shutdown last year. Seems ECMSpy has given way to a combo of ECMRead and TunerPro. I just want pretty dials and readouts in real-time to see fluctuations, which DirectLink has...now if I can only get it to connect. btw - I keep updating this thread from time to time not only to continue to get ideas from all of you, but also so that once this is finally resolved *crosses fingers and toes* everything I did and the resolution will be available to any one else with a similar problem. I find a lot of threads where a ton of help is given but the end result is never posted back. If anyone happens to be following this, I don't want to leave them hanging. :-) | ||
| Thump4fun |
Yesterday was a bad day for the bike. I decided to follow some advice from another post I found try cleaning out the two idle air control (IAC) holes in the side of the throttle body. After removing everything down to the throttle body I took a look inside. ummm...exactly how black is it supposed to be in there?! I should have taken a picture but it was pretty black under the butterfly valve and all down the sides of the body. Not thick, but definitely nice and black. I used some STP throttle body cleaner to clean the butterfly valve, the sides of the body, and both IAC holes. Put it back together, hooked her up to the trickle charger for good measure, and put her to bed without starting her. This morning I fired her up and she coughed and sputtered and spewed white smoke and died. mmmm...the smell of acetone in the morning. Second ignition caught and she sputtered a bit and then hummed along at a perfect idle. WHOA!! A perfect idle?! I haven't seen her do that in months! As usual, I let her idle for about 3 minutes while I waited for her to start getting erratic. Nothing. I put my gear on and rode. I can still feel the lurching / stumbling just a bit, but it seems to be better. And the idle is definitely improved -- much smoother and right at 1k or so. Perhaps I've found the culprit with the IAC? I'm not declaring anything yet, but I'm intrigued now. We'll see how the rest of the week goes with her. | ||
| Thump4fun |
Sadly, she continues to run like sh*t. Ran great yesterday morning, then leaving work in the afternoon she idled all over the place, coughed, sputtered, and ran like the worst of times. Riding home was a real treat, with revs at stop lights around 1,600 RPMs and rode with a lot of stumbling/lurching. Almost stalled her out a few times. Ran the same way out to a local bike night. Then when evening came around after she sat for about 90 minutes, she idled and ran perfectly fine! I am getting really frustrated here. It's been 2 months of back and forth, in the dealership 3 times, and a lot of newbie troubleshooting on my part. I really miss my bike. :-( *heavy sigh* I'm thinking the IAC may be the culprit after all. In the next day or two I'm going to tear her open yet again and this time, remove the IAC completely from the throttle body. Clean out the bypass holes again with some Sea Foam spray and look over the IAC. Maybe I'll luck out and there's just carbon build-up on the plunger and all will be well. If not, I'm calling Buell customer service and see if they'll still let my dealer look at it for the 4th time under warranty (since it expired the day I took it in, but the original problem has never been resolved). I'm considering pulling the TPS as well, but not sure if there's actually any mechanical part to it that would get carbon buildup. It is connected through a small hole to the butterfly, so I'm thinking it's possible. Anyone know if there are 0-rings or seals of some sort that will need replaced after removing the IAC and/or TPS? btw - if anyone is still following along on this long thread of mine, there's a guy in the Uly area having the exact same problem as me right now. Funny enough we've done pretty much the same things so far (although I haven't replaced my O2 sensor and he has, but with no change). He's now also thinking IAC or a bad terminal connection somewhere. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?142838/582570 | ||
| Chameleon |
I helped a Uly rider this last weekend with a bike having a similar problem. We got ECMSpy connected to it and tried running some diagnostic tests. All of them failed due to communication errors. Swapped the ECM with a known good one from a different Uly and all problems went away. If you can't get ECMSpy, DirectLink, or TunerPro to connect to it, can you at least borrow a compatible ECM to swap in long enough to take a test ride? | ||
| Debueller |
Thump4 fun, you got a PM | ||
| Thump4fun |
For those following, I just got off the phone with Debueller and he may be on to something. It's not a cheap fix but it's straight forward and may be *the* overall fix for the issues we're seeing, specifically on early 2008 models. The fix he found has been in collaboration with a solid Buell tech who's seen this before on multiple early 2008 bikes and it has apparently fixed each one he's done this to. To recap, those issues we're dealing with are: * Bad idling, coughing and stalling at startup (see example here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkh1Ttms7jU ) * Stumbling or lurching when riding - familiar to the feeling of a car's A/C kicking on and off repeatedly * Sometimes high hot idles while riding, 1,500 - 2,000 RPMs These symptoms, once they appear, seem to come and go depending on multiple factors (resetting TPS, replacing parts like the O2 sensor and head temp sensor, and general "tinkering" like cleaning out carbon deposits) but always come back. They also get worse over time (weeks to months) and are not directly related to any intake leaks or fuel pump/pressure issues. Debueller is performing this fix in the next couple of days and will report back after verifying the impact on his bike - with exactly what the fix was and whether it was good, bad or indifferent. *crosses fingers* | ||
| Froggy |
Bump  | ||
| Thump4fun |
I spoke with Debueller this morning. The fix that the dealer tech was certain would fix it was NOT it after all. The tech had seen several similar issues with early 2008 models where they had to replace the entire induction assembly kit. That's essentially the throttle body, fuel injectors, IAC and TPS all put together and replaced as one entire unit. It's about $550 for the unit, so not a cheap fix outside of warranty. But for Debueller, it made no difference whatsoever. However, he did end up solving his problem! He had purchased a new ECM from Erik Buell Racing a while back and hadn't gotten around to installing it. So after determining that the induction kit didn't do anything for him, he went ahead and swapped the ECM and...tada! His bike purred. Took it out for a ride and noticed a world of difference, even from before the problems. Several people early on in this thread pointed to the IAC and/or the ECM being the culprit as well. At this point I'm going to hook up with someone with a 2008 or 2009 ECM and swap with them to see if the problem follows the ECM and if my bike will run right with a different ECM. If so, looks like I'll be getting a new ECM. It might be a week or so before I can hook up with someone, but I'll be sure and post back with any results. | ||
| Thepod |
I will swap you. I have an 08 ECM. I'd be interested in seeing if the ECM makes a difference. | ||
| Ustorque |
Thump, sorry to hear that this didn't work out better for you and i hope an ecm swap does what you think it will. I am also still on the hunt for my cityx's surge gremlins which have now rendered my bike completely unrideable. I id the ecm swap last week hoping that maybe my race ecm had just crapped on me, but putting my stock ecm back in only proved that both ecm's were fine and i have other issues. At this point my riding season has come to a close and it looks like an the bike is in wait for a winter tear down. I'll be watching your thread though in the hope that maybe you'll pass by something i have missed. good luck! | ||
| Thump4fun |
Thanks for the offer thepod, but I've got someone local that's going to swap with me tonight. The weather sucks right now but hopefully it will clear up enough to give it a test ride on a known good ECM. If it is the ECM, I already contacted Erik Buell Racing and they said they can send me a new ECM with the stock settings. They don't have a stock listed on the site and I don't use an aftermarket exhaust. I am curious if using a race programmed ECM will be okay for typical road riding though...other then for emissions which we don't have tests for in Ohio, and for which my lawn mower causes more problems then my bike would, silly tree huggers...no offense intended. :-) I'll report back tomorrow. | ||
| Thepod |
Ok, I'm interested to hear how it goes. | ||
| Thump4fun |
Okay, so I swapped my ECM with a fellow Bueller here in town. Both are stock with authorized flash updates. Mine is a 2008 XB12Ss Lightning, flashed with the latest code as of a couple months ago. His is from a 2009 Uly with the comfort kit flash. Test #1: My bike was cold, last run almost 24 hours prior. I pulled my ECM and plugged in the Uly ECM. The bike fired right up and hovered perfectly at 1000 RPM. I waited for the wandering idle to start after 30 seconds, but nothing. 1 minute...nothing. 1 min 30 seconds...nothing. 2 minutes, still purring along perfectly at 1000 RPM. No backfiring through the throttle body, no idle hunting, no stalling. Turned the bike off and connected my ECM back up. Fired right up with mine too, but the idle was around 1200 RPM and wandered just a little -- within 200 RPMs. Let it run for a minute or so with no change. Swapping back to the Uly, idling was perfect. Back to mine and after only a few seconds the idle hunt began as it swung between 600 and 1500 RPMs, almost stalling out. Back to the Uly and idle goes back to perfect. Maybe not perfectly scientific but close enough for me right now. Score - Uly ECM +1, my ECM a big 0 Test #2: I bolted down the Uly ECM and let it idle my "normal" 3 min or so as I put on gear and waited for the fan to kick on. Then down the drive and into the neighborhood, and...whoa!!! Who's bike am I on?! This isn't my bike, no way! Granted, the bike was a little more warmed up then usual from the swapping back and forth, but even so, with my ECM she's bucking and surging and coughing for a good 10 minutes before she settles down to a frustrating grumble. But not now. With the Uly ECM she's purring right along with no problem, even between 2500-3000 RPM where my bike is it's very worst...enough that I usually feel like I'm on a bucking bronco. Instead, she's just purring along like a happy little kitten. Hmmm...so is there any life in this kitten? Hit the main road and take her up to 60-70mph, then drop back down to a legalish 50 for a few miles. There's a few stop signs along the way and the bike doesn't miss a beat. She feels more responsive and seems to have her grunt back. Score - Uly ECM +2, my ECM a big 0 My fellow Bueller has been kind enough to let me run his ECM for the next couple of days to see if it really has seemed to fix it (thanks Mike!), but I think the problem may have finally been found! Two questions for you all: 1 - Has anyone heard of the entire ECM just going bad like this (other then Debueller and Chameleon above)? There are no cracks, no bent pins, no corrosion, nothing at all that looks bad to the naked eye. In the back of my mind I wonder if something else is causing the ECM to fail. If so, getting a new one will not solve the underlying problem and the new ECM will only crap out again over time. I realize electronics fail from time to time, but I am curious of the failure rate of stock ECMs. 2 - If Harley refuses to replace my ECM under my now expired warranty, I would prefer to give my money to Erik Buell Racing then to Harley. Has anyone been running the "race only" ECMs from Erik Buell Racing on the street for "normal" riding? My concern is not emissions related, but rather drivability at lower speeds and RPMs. I've already emailed Erik Buell Racing and they have a stock map they can put on the basic Erik Buell Racing ECM. Even if Harley agrees to replace the stock ECM I may still go with the Erik Buell Racing ECM. (Message edited by thump4fun on August 04, 2010) | ||
| Tepiddeath |
Thump- I have been experiencing similar problems out of my 09 Xb23Ss, and she has been back and forth to the dealer more times than I have fingers. They can't figure out what is wrong. As for the ECM being defective with no visible signs of damage...ABSOLUTELY a possibility. Take the Crane single fire electronic ignitions for the shovelhead and evo motors. They have a very high rate of failure, and drop one cylinder all the time becuase of inferior assembly proceedures. I see it all the time at my job. The connections become loose inside the unit but looks fine on the outside. Ans sometimes there are defects with new parts, or as the mechanic at work says, "Babies are new when they come out, but some of them are born dead too!" | ||
| Chameleon |
Answers for you: 1. Yes, which is why I suggested you try it. 2. Yes, many on 1125Rs & 1125CRs. | ||
| Thump4fun |
Tepiddeath - you have an XB23?! How sick is that!  What parts, if any, have you had replaced with no affect on your problem? Thanks for the feedback but....DAMN IT!!! The saga continues. It ran like crap this morning with the borrowed ECM. grrrr...I'm getting tired of going back and forth with this thing. Change something, seems like it does the trick and fixes it, only to have it all come crashing back down.  This morning *almost* all the symptoms were back, and in force. Started it up...stalled immediately. Not a good sign but it happens once in a while even in the best of times. Started up again and ran okay for a minute or so. Then the idle hunt began, slowly at first like it was doing better to compensate for whatever was going on, and progressively until it was a "normal" 600 - 1600 RPM sweep. Coughed, sputtered and almost stalled a couple times. After a few minutes it calmed down around 1100 RPM. The fan came on and I took off. Through the neighborhood it wasn't as smooth as last night, but still much better then my ECM at 3000 RPM. Then trying to turn left onto major street -- cough, sputter, hesitate, followed by a slight pucker moment. Thankfully no traffic. Down the road the stumbling is quite apparent. Get to a traffic light and my idle is now hovering about 1600 RPM. Give it a little clutch with the brake on to bring the idle down and stop my head from vibrating, but let the clutch out and back to 1600 she goes. Stopped at gas station to get some Gatorade and after a brief engine off, she's still the same. Cough, sputter, high idle that won't come down, all the way to work. My so-called "A/C effect" is the only thing that's been barely noticeable. So either (a) whatever is wrong is obviously not the ECM after all or (b) my problem has now infected my buddy's ECM and I'm out $350+ to buy a new stock for him. :-/ One note - I did not do a TPS reset yet with his ECM in. I figured I'd try without it first, and since last night it purred with absolutely no problem whatsoever, I didn't go back and do it. So today I'll try a TPS reset when I leave the office and see if that makes any difference whatsoever. Question - The TPS itself has been in the back of my head as a potential problem. Looks like a PIA to replace as the entire throttle body has to come out, which I assume means replacing intake seals too. What's anyone's thoughts on throwing $50 at a new TPS and seeing what happens? How much of a pain is it really to change out? (Message edited by thump4fun on August 05, 2010) | ||
| Glitch |
I did not do a TPS reset yet with his ECM in. Mistake. | ||
| Chameleon |
To be scientific, you should try to run the Uly on your ECU. If it exhibits the same problem, then the fried ECU is only a symptom of the issue and your bike has probably fried the Uly ECU as well. |
