| Author | Message | ||
     Cereal |
Evidently the Trojan thread in the sponsor section is not a good place to ask questions either. I guess I'll go back to asking all of my questions on the XBoard. Sorry Blake. Does anyone know if the modified belt tensioner, either the one made by Free Spirits or others, will work on the stock 03 setup? I was told in another thread that the difference between the 03 and 04+ pulley is the length of the bracket, not the size of pulley. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/17143/218188.html?1154698321 | ||
| Trojan |
Sorry I don't check the sponsor section that often. The Free Spirits/Trojan belt tensioner will work on any XB9 or 12 model regardless of year. These are also now available in black. (Message edited by trojan on August 07, 2006) | ||
| Cereal |
No problem. Thanks for the answer.  | ||
| Firebolteric_ma |
awwwwwww...there is black?! now i find out  ! | ||
| Trojan |
awwwwwww...there is black?! now i find out! We are waiting on our first batch of black ones to arrive this week  | ||
| Cereal |
Hey Firebolteric, I'll buy your silver one off of you if you really want the black one. PM me with your asking price. | ||
| Firebolteric_ma |
Cereal >>>>>>>> i will be doing my bike in all black over the winter, powder coat everything. SORRY BUD. | ||
| Percyco |
Are these tensioners an improvement from stock, more life from my 2003 xb9s belt ? What's the price of these in US greenbacks and where can I get one ? Thanks! | ||
| Firebolteric_ma |
Trojan has them. check out his site in the sponsors section. | ||
| Indy_bueller |
No offense to Trojan, but I would be very careful using one of those things. During the little seminar at East Troy during Homecoming, Abe and Erik talked alot about the tension applied to the belt by the tensioner, so on and so forth. I wish I could remember the reasons they mentioned, but I came away with the idea that using such a device was bad. Buell has tested the crap outta the belt systems. I don't think they just threw it together and called it good. If using something like this was necessary, or even just beneficial, I would think that they would come on the bikes stock. Just my $.02. | ||
| Cereal |
I would agree if it weren't for the multitude of threads of people b!tching about belt breakage. | ||
| Xb12rdude |
I've posted this answer before, but here goes again. Just because Buell doesn't add and/or change something on the bike don't mean it's not an improvement. Something like that would add money to the bike, which is not an easy sell. I work in the automotive industry and if we add .01 cent to a car it takes 5000 top executive signitures and a 4000 page write up to why. As a matter a fact, we are directed to reduce the price by 5-10% every year or else we get fired or no raise. There are many great after market improvements on "ALL" motorcycles but manufactures can't justify the dollars unless absolutely needed. Having an engineering back ground, I believe the "constant tension Pulley" is a huge improvement. When the swing arm extends fully, it puts stress on the belt and slowly fatigues the belt. Not to mention if it picks up a rock or something. I would be interested in what Buell had to say about it though, I'm not always right but remember added money to a product is a given "NONO" in the competitive global market we tend to live in. | ||
| Firebolteric_ma |
----------- I don't think they just threw it together and called it good. ---------------- REALLY?.....have you heard about the 03 belt problem people have? i believe it was for THIS example. | ||
| U4euh |
Yes I do believe that the most tension is put on the belt during braking. And Trojan's design helps to relieve some of that tension by allowing the tensioner to give a little during hard braking. If I could afford it, or the 06 upgrade I would do it. It makes sense when this was discussed the first time around with all the technical stuff. | ||
| Rhun |
again per homecoming: if the 03 belt was rolled up too tightly I.E allowed to get in a small radius it was toast. Hence very large box they came in. The 04 and 05 were a vast improvement except for abrasions (rocks) and downshift torque. The 06 belt is almost equal to a chain in all categories and superior in some. Buells data. If you have an 03 belt bite the bullet and buy an 06 belt and pulleys or keep whining and buying belts. Never buy a used 03 belt. Ps if you don't want to and need an 03 rear pulley contact me I got stuck with one. | ||
| Indy_bueller |
Hey, they are your bikes, do what you want. I have an '03, and I'm spending the money to upgrade to the new setup. By everything that I've read, it looks like that is the best bet to me. | ||
| Kootenay |
...I do believe that the most tension is put on the belt during braking. And Trojan's design helps to relieve some of that tension by allowing the tensioner to give a little during hard braking... Huh? What's braking got to do with belt tension? Dunno about your bike, but my rear brake rotor is attached directly to the wheel hub... And in the case of engine braking, the tensioner has got nothing to do with it. In fact, were enough engine braking to occur to move the sprung idler pulley, I'd be concerned about slack developing in the top run of the belt, which could lead to problems where the belt meshes with the drive pulley... Oh, and BTW, I believe the stock pulley is properly referred to as an "idler," not a "tensioner," since it is NOT sprung; it is designed to create the constant length belt path (regardless of swingarm position) rather than create constant tension on a belt whose path length varies. Or, at least, that's how I understand it. | ||
| Saintly |
"Huh? What's braking got to do with belt tension? Dunno about your bike, but my rear brake rotor is attached directly to the wheel hub... " Well I dunno about your bike, but when I brake on mine it causes the front to dip and the rear to rise which in turn allows the rear suspension to extend quite a bit, which leads to your next comment... "it is designed to create the constant length belt path (regardless of swingarm position) rather than create constant tension on a belt whose path length varies. Or, at least, that's how I understand it." It appears as though you dont understand it, because it does indeed have a variable length belt path. Jack up your bike via the muffler until the rear tire is off the ground and observe what happens to the the belt path. It gets MUCH tighter in the extended(swingarm) position than it does in the compressed position. It is for this reason that the trojan / freespirit type sprung belt tensioners are a significant improvement over the "fixed" idler design. | ||
| Xb12rdude |
And this is coming from a very "un-biased" opinion, because I know you went to chain. I was surprised you support the Trojon idler.  I'm still undecided "06 Belt with Trojon Idler" or "homemade chain conversion". Close to the same price if I buy the chain I wanted. | ||
| Old_man |
With the spring loaded idler, by looking at the picture, it appears that the idler wheel doesn't exert any extra tension on the belt but seems that it would give a little when the belt is tightened by wheel travel beyond its static position. If I had the extra scratch laying around, I'd buy one. | ||
| Fontana_motorsports |
so..how much is it in us dollars? | ||
| Kootenay |
Saintly, perhaps I was incorrect--I assumed U4euh was suggesting that braking force would be applied via the belt. I understand that the swingarm extends during braking (I stoppie my bike every now and then...). And yes I've jacked up the bike, and had the belt off a few times (had to replace tires) but I can't detect any change in belt tension. Then again, I haven't really been looking for it. I've read that the whole idea of the final drive system on the Buell is based on the idea of a "constant length" belt path. The placement, and even diameter, of the idler pulley is critical, as that's what maintains the constant length of the belt path as the suspension moves through its range of motion--that's what I've read, and it makes sense to me. Especially since my belt drive seems to work well without any provision for accomodating a changing belt path length (such as a spring tensioner). Now, I'm not saying a sprung tensioner is necessarily a bad thing, as long as the tension is set high enough and the arm seats on a stop when it is in the correct position, so the top run of the belt isn't going to be allowed to run loose during engine braking. This kind of sprung system would allow the odd stone or whatever to pass without necessarily holing the belt... | ||
| Saintly |
" I know you went to chain. I was surprised you support the Trojon idler." I've always been an advocate of that device when used on a BELT application. When I originally converted to chain, I planned on using the freespirits tensioner, but due to time constraints I was unable to obtain one quick enough. So ,in order to get going I modified my stock idler bracket. This turned out to be the best choice I made, since I now have 9000 miles on that same setup and it is trouble-free. Furthermore I recently got a chance to get my hands on the freespirits tensioner for chain, and realized that it has no advantage over my setup whatsoever(my opinion). It is worthy to note that ONLY the freespirits tensioner for belts is sprung. Their model for chain has no constant spring tension, but rather an adjustable rod with heim type ends, and a nylon idler sprocket. A lot of people who enquire about my conversion are hesitant to accept the fact that I use a nylon wheel on mine. Many say that they would prefer a steel toothed sprocket like the others have. Well, Hammer71 recently purchased one from Ronlv, and upon its arrival we immediately noticed that their idler was indeed nylon and not steel. This is not to say that their chain tensioner is anything less than a work of art. It is a beautiful and well made piece, but in my opinion, my setup(for chain) works just as well. Anyway I've strayed from the topic a bit. My position is still that the sprung trojan/freespirits tensioner for belt applications is a phenomenal product. If I had a belt on my XB, it would definitely have their sprung tensioner on it. | ||
| Al_lighton |
I'm not sure about that item. Might be good, haven't tested it personally. But, I do have concerns. Any time you see something with a spring, you should question the damping. Springs store energy, they don't absorb it. Sprung systems will have resonances, what is the resonant frequency of the spring pulley tensioner and is it something that helps or hurts? Anyone remember the Hayden M6 primary chain spring tensioner device? Lots of people swore by them, but you'll find many that will swear AT them too. Anyone that has installed a brand new 04+ belt on an XB knows how tight these belts are. When they first go on, one would swear there is a fit issue, they fight so much. Once on, the belt is drum tight, seems hard to flex it. But if you run a bike on a dyno, you can see that drum tight belt flexing more than Ahhnald's biceps at a Mr Universe competition. I've seen up and down movement of at least 1/2" or more under dynamic load. When you downshift hard, that tension goes to the bottom, the slack goes to the top. Does that spring compress all the way when this happens? If yes, how much slack moves to the top in the process? When you hit the throttle hard after that event and pull the tension back to the top, is that a good thing? The product claim at the manufacturers web site says "This spring loaded item is designed to maintain a tension of 10.5kg regardless and will help lengthen belt and bearing life.". How does a spring (F=kX) that small keep a constant tension on the belt? I don't know. It might work. I'd sure like to hear more about how it works and the testing its gone through before I'd buy one. Looks neat, though. And Free spirits build quality is excellent based on what I've seen. Al | ||
| Trojan |
The stock belt tensioner/idler (yes it is a tensioner - try running your belt without it) is that it does not exert constant tension on the belt. It is physically impossible for it to do this given the position of the motor sprocket relative to the swingarm pivot point. What it can do is to keep the tension 'relatively' constant. What was found during tests was that the tension increased substantially when the suspension was in extension (such as when driving over a hump backed bridge, railway crossing or braking hard), and this was when early belts were breaking. The later belts may be better but they still break regularly. What the sprung belt tensioner achieves is to relieve this 'extra' tension at the times it is required whilst still keeping the belt under the same 'relative' constant tension for the rest of the time. It may well, as Al suggests, cause a small amount of slck at the top of the belt run for a short time, but the spring movement is actually very small and this wouldn't cause any problems. The fact that I don't know of a single belt breakage from any of our customers since this product was introduced is testament to the fact that it works. I did send one to Henry Duga when these were first released for his views but don't know if he ever got around to testing it. Like most things on a stock bike, the OE tensioner is built to a price and is a simple and cheap piece to produce. The Free Spirits tensioner does work substantially better but would add to the cost of a new bike, which would not please the bean counters. | ||
| Kootenay |
Well there we have it, both opinions delivered in a concise and articulate manner. I believe both ideas have merit, and it would take some careful testing to determine which is correct. Thanks, Al and Trojan, for your posts. | ||
| Fullpower |
13,000 miles on this lash-up:  | ||
| Fullpower |
front sprocket is OEM sportster part, about 32 dollars for a good quality PBI U.S. made 21 tooth sprocket, rear is around55 bucks from vortex racing in Florida, and the chain ( currently with 13000 miles on it) is a Tsubaki Sigma X-ring, nickle plated model for around 140 bucks. more details are available in the Knowledge Vault of course.  | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Nice set up Power. I think yours is one of the very first chain conversions using the stock swing arm. I was just wondering what the details on the idler wheel are? | ||
| Kootenay |
How much slack in that chain, Fullpower? I don't see an adjuster...oh yes, on second look I see you've notched the top idler arm bolthole to allow movement there. |
