| Author | Message | ||
     Buckinfubba |
who's done it and has a dyno to show and what did it take to get there. Aaron I am sure ,well almost, that you've done it up there in your wonderland shop. We've obviously done it with the race bikes but we've had no time to get any work done for a street application. This move stalled everything for months and now we are spending time with normal service and three different race bikes, thunder bike formula usa, and v-rod drag racing. Not making excuses just nobodies had the time help me out if you can or anybody else. puttin our heads together can help anything right seesya bubba | ||
| Blake |
The Dyno Charts topic in the KV is full of 100RWHP bikes. It's not as difficult a mark to achieve as it was a few years ago. Aaron has his M2 cranking out 120 RWHP with N8 cams, Force exhaust, and some of Wes Brown's custom heads. | ||
| Buckinfubba |
YEAH i KNOW IT AIN'T THAT HARD TO ACHIVE . i WAS TALKING SPECIFICALY THE XB AND WHAT WAS USED , SUCH AS PIPE AND CAMS AND SUCH, i'VE BEEN THERE WITH THE OTHER MOTORS. i AM JUST CURIOUS ABOUT THE XB. tHINGS LIKE HEADWORK AND VALVE SPRINGS. OBVIOUSLY BIG VALVE AND SUCH. jUST CURIOUS | ||
| Aaron |
That motor had N83's, not N8's, big difference! It's getting a new setup now. Never stop experimenting. | ||
| Buckinfubba |
aaron tell me somethin I am about ready to do somethin to mine and might go with something you suggest and then turn it on to a few folks I know around here that want more go go to they're bolts | ||
| Blake |
Sorry Bubba, I didn't catch the XB reference. No need to yell.  Aaron, Thanks for the correction. | ||
| Aaron |
Bubba: We've got 1050 kits, 1200 kits, and new cams and a new pipe in the works. The pipe right now beats the race pipe at all rpms, but I'm not quite happy with it yet. We've got multiple customers over 100rwhp. The Xb presents some new challenges though, challenges we're working hard on. Can't say too much. Let me ask you this, how much do you think the market would bear dollar wise for a complete FI system, not a piggyback box, fully programmable including ignition? We could make it happen, but I'm not at all sure we could sell any. Details. Problem is, Dynojet has withdrawn plans for a supported XB solution. There's more than one way to skin the cat though. That's about all I can say at this moment, stay tuned. | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
My ignition and fuel injection are about the only thing holding me back from doing a big bore, ported head kit. I think there are others out there that would love to see a reasonably priced FI kit for our XB's. I hope that you do come out with the FI kit, so I can buy everything in one shot from you. | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
By the way, for you stock XB owners that are considering the race kit. I beat my buddy's stock bolt with my Latus, race ecm, and air filter from a 70 mph roll. I beat him by more than 10 bike lengths. He also weighs about 60 lbs less than I do. He is a very small guy! We ran to about 125 mph and my bike just kept pulling away! I cant wait to see what my bike will do with the Nallin kit. | ||
| Bud |
Aaron, A whole new, all the way adjustable FI system, would by great, but why do you think the stock (race) ecm with maybe a higher pressure fuel regulator would not work?? ( really would love the flow numbers on the # 103501 injector’s at 3.5 bar ) Providing you can get enough air in there and out off there, and let the open loop work thing’s out ? Are you looking for more revs.? Or a complete open loop system ? Would by nice to have it all adjustable, but a nice self thinking system that’s taking the right adjustments when ever I run it in the rain or early morning fog or on a sunny 30° C afternoon Would be even nicer Ar15ls1, I now what you mean,  when ever you wank the throttle at 5000 rpm say bye bye , my mate has a stock X1 ( euro pulley’s ) he ordered the pro-series fore his bike, I think, it would take more to beat me  Gr. m | ||
| Imonabuss |
Open loop systems are the bomb IMHO, 'cause there's nothing like a system that auto adjusts. The dangerous thing with open loop systems however is that people always decide to put race gas in the bike, and that destroys the O2 sensor real fast! | ||
| Rick_A |
Closed loop uses feed back from the O2 sensor...not open. | ||
| Bud |
Sorry, if I mix things up , I ‘m always mix the open & closed loop operation, I can’t get it in my mind , so open is cold & up to 5000 rpm and uses the learned values And closed it adjusts on the fly. I’d still had a bussing noise in my ear’s, fist ride out this years and I let my little bolt purr forgot my earplug’s , hell, did I miss that sound for 2 months gr,m please read in my previous post open as closed let the FI be closed | ||
| Jimidan |
So what is in race gas that destroys the O2 sensors? Why? | ||
| Bud |
Jimidan, I think they still use some lead in race fuel, to make it better resistant against self-detonation. And lead really kills a normal O2 sensor, but I’ have seen some O2 sensors on the market that are lead resistant . ( I have sold 1 fore a volvo 850 in Dubai, they don’t use catalytic converters over there , but still use the stock FI ) Gr,m | ||
| Blake |
Rick, Can you please explain the difference between "open loop" and "closed loop" as it pertains to a fuel injection system? I mean, what is the "loop" that is open or closed? Also, doesn't the Buell DDFI utilize both open and closed loop depending on certain operational parameters like engine speed and throttle position? | ||
| Hootowl |
If I may speak for Rick... The "loop" is the sensor feedback. If the ECM ignores the feedback from the O2 sensor, it is in open loop operation, and yes DDFI operates in both modes, as do most speed density type EFI systems, depending on the conditions. | ||
| Blake |
Hoot, Thank you, but I was hoping Rick could answer for himself. Your answer is hidden pending his response. | ||
| Chainsaw |
Let me get this straight Blake...you're editing other peoples posts pending the outcome of an intellectual pissing contest?  | ||
| Jonjeffords |
Chainsaw: I think Blake wants Rick to exercise his mind and think it out for himself, as opposed to just being fed the answer. For 10 years, I sat next to the sharpest engineer I've had the pleasure to know, and rarely did he directly answer one of my technical questions. He would always answer my question with his own line of questions, which would passively guide me to the solution. Something along the lines of "Feed a man a fish, and he'll be full for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll be full for life." | ||
| Blake |
Chainsaw, I've never approached any of the technical debates or discussions in which I've engaged as "intellectual pissing contests." I'm not even sure what that means as I've never engaged in an actual "pissing contest." Jon, I had a similar experience. BTW, your profile entries, if there are entries, are all hidden. Uncheck the "Hide" boxes? | ||
| Imonabuss |
Rick A, that's what I meant. Bud, I got 'em backwards too. Duhhh, I apologize. BTW, open loop actually means no loop in my opinion...ie. no feedback from the O2 sensor. Anyhow, the XB runs open loop at idle, and also at WOT, but at all points in between runs closed loop. Here is a little more crude explanation of open vs. closed. Open loop fuel injection systems are mapped with a set of pre-planned fuel tables that are switched between based on input from ambient pressure. That way if the altitude is high, they switch to a leaner table. Pretty simple, and reasonably effective, unless something is different in the fuel or the engine or the intake or the exhaust system from the engine where the tables were set. (Read this as: pray that your engine stays in perfect shape its whole life and never, never modify anything) Also, this type of system doesn't need much processor power because the adjustments are pretty coarse and don't need to be made very often. In closed loop mode, the system checks the exhaust mixture with the O2 sensor, and modifies the fuel injector output to keep the mix at the optimum. These checks happen constantly and at a very rapid rate. Closed loop systems are significantly more expensive than fully mapped ones, because of the O2 sensor expense and the higher level processor involved to make the necessary mixture decisions at high speed. So now you can talk down to your buddy with the new Japanese I4 with EFI..."all those throttle bodies and only a wimpy open loop processor? Man, how stone age!" | ||
| Anonymous |
BusMan, Not to toss you under the bus, but let me adjust your thinking just a little. The XB series of bikes have closed loop at idle enabled. It uses open loop until the O2 sensor heats up to operating temperature and then it goes in to closed loop at idle. This both improves idle quality and emissions. The open loop system does not require you to, Quote: (Read this as: pray that your engine stays in perfect shape its whole life and never, never modify anything) Here is why. As the bike is operated in closed loop if the system detects a lean or rich condition it adjust the AFV either up or down to compensate. This AFV is a correction factor applied to the base maps during open loop operation. There are no pressure sensors in the Buell DDFI system. Compensation for changing elevation, temperature, or barometric pressure is done by the O2 sensor and AFV. So, the bike can and does compensate for engine wear and changing conditions, even some SLIGHT engine modifications. A pipe is not a slight change. I like your thinking on the non-loop. I was wondering when Blake was going to jump on that bandwagon. From now on the entire world will know it was closed loop, but Blake will call it non-loop. Adjust your vocabulary as required. | ||
| Brentx1 |
Just to throw a wrench in this thread, I received an e-mail today from a "spy" inside a well known Harley and Buell dealer in Wisconsin, stating that they have an XB with full fairings, street legal and almost ready for sale to the public, for the right price, that is making around 113rwhp. If this is true, how come Buell won't build it? | ||
| Imonabuss |
Anon, Not to throw you under your mous, but you need to re-read what I wrote. As far as the open loop on idle, my apologies, I forgot. However, on your other point, I WAS talking about the advantage of a closed loop system (ie. the one on my XB) over an open (non-loop?) system (ie. the one on my buddy's import) when I said that the open system will not adjust. Or am I wrong? Do open (non) loop systems have a way of measuring wear, production tolerances, minor changes, etc. and downloading the appropriate map? I don't think so. Again, I said...open loop systems (like the one on my buddy's bike) do not adjust, so pray that everything stays perfect. Closed loop systems (like the one on my XB) do adjust for wear, differences in exhaust systems (not radically different mind you, but do you believe all production exhaust systems are identical?), etc. Also, the Buell systems will actually adjust quite a bit. I know it is not recommended, but I've even seen them run well with modified airboxes and pipes. Now it undoubtedly was at the extreme range of the closed loop 's ability to adjust, but I know a non-loop system would barely run under the same conditions. That's why open systems always require a new chip or the like for every modification...maybe Ducati should sell the 20,000 mile wear chip; the 40,000 mile wear chip, the... Ooooops, I forgot, they never make it that far...hahahaha. Anyhow, did I get it right...or did I get the closed/open/non thing wrong again. Darn, a Dellorto was so much simpler (not!) | ||
| Anonymous |
Brentx1, I'd bet that means it'll have lights and a license plate. If that 113HP bike will pass EPA emissions and sound, I'll eat the bastard. It's cool that folks build custom stuff, but it bugs the crap out of me when they say "street legal". | ||
| Rick_A |
Using a combination of both seems like the way to go. Do any other manufacturer's use something like DDFI? As far as I know the "loop" refers to the feedback loop. Open loop works by factoring cylinder air volume and cylinder air density for the mixture (the intake side only)...the way I see it is that it's "open" for that reason...and the exhaust feedback "closes" the loop. | ||
| Mikej |
Brent, Ask the price, then read the anony post. I wonder if any shop will ever get tagged by the EPA before a private owner does for emissions tampering. (Can I really be arrested and charged with tampering with or removing my air box and swapping out my muffler?) | ||
| Davegess |
Buell has to build a bike that is actually street legal and had to prove it to the government. The dealers don't have to do this. Actually what they do is sell you a legal bike and after the sale they put "racing use only parts" on the thing. Technically they have than modified a customers bike for "off road use only". The owners bears the responsibility for having modified the bike. Since there is no provision requiring owners to proive that the bike remains EPA and NHTSA legal you only really have to worry about your states regulations. If you have no emission check for bikes, no mandatory vehicle safety inspections and cops who won't write you up for equipment violations unless you do something else stupid you are home free. | ||
| Blake |
Rick, "Feedback" loop is part of the answer. Doesn't the ECM also receive data from the TPS? What about the intake air sensor, and the tachometer? Aren't all those feeding data to the ECM too? What is special about the O2 sensor and its "feedback"? |
