| Author | Message | ||
     12r |
Gettin' on the gas yesterday while apexing an uphill left hander and I swear I felt the front wheel lift while still cranked over. Weird thing was I stayed on line and exited the corner with such a rush ! Whoo-hoo ! Someone's gonna tell me this happens to them all the time but the last time my front tyre left the deck while cornering, I crashed. | ||
| Ingemar |
Unless you have a steering damper I would strongly advise not to do these things again unless you wanna crash again. Tankslappers are not an easy thing to recover from. But I agree, it happened once and it felt pretty cool. The adrenaline sure gives an addictive kick doesn't it? | ||
| 12r |
I hear you Ingemar, but it didn't tankslap or feel unstable, it just lifted on the gas. I'd like to understand the physics of how it stayed on line instead of FF into the scenery. Analysis anyone ? | ||
| Bomber |
only happend to be once (that I know of) -- my guess is that it was of a brief enough duration that the rar was leaned over enough to keep the scoot on the line it was on when the front wheel was on the ground as well . . . . . . I'm sure Blake can post formulae with vectors and cosines and stuff ;-} adreniline is a powerful drug, no doubt -- | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Happens all the time in races, but I wouldn't make a habit of it, especially without a steering damper. What happens is that the front wheel is acting like a gyroscope, it resists changing the angle of lean, while it is spinning. Because of the progression of the axis of gyroscopes, weird things can happen if there are any changes to lean angle, wheel spinning etc. | ||
| Outrider |
Tis the beauty of a Buell!!! With the rheostatic power delivery, you can get yourself crossed up and ease it back down to the ground gently or power out of it with a bit of gymnastics. Tough to do that on the road with a liter type bike. The high rpm's required to do get yourself in that situation make it that much more difficult to control. Also, a primary reason why bikes with Buell's power delivery make excellent hooligan/stunter bikes. Same applies to drifting both ends in dirt, sand, gravel situation. The tubers were just great all round bikes but the XB's take it to the next level quite nicely. Summary...Buell's are excellent bikes for the real world. | ||
| M1combat |
I've had that happen a few times... As long as you are loose on the bars and don't panic at all, the bike will instantly fix the geometry for you, no damper needed IF you can stay calm and loose. One time the front came off the ground in second transitioning from a sharp right to left. I was still giving input to the bars to get the left lean angle I was going for. Just before straight up, the front came off and I turned the bars farther than I should have. When the front touched back down, the bars INSTANTLY snapped back to exactly where they were supposed to be with no wobble what so ever. I ended up with a line about 6" outside of where I wanted to be. If I had a steering damper I truly believe I would be dead. I believe I would have hit the guard rail and been tossed over a 150-200Yd cliff. The bars wouldn't have been able to snap back to exactly where they needed to be instantly. I've run across 3-4 ripples in the road at a fairly high lean angle at about 110, NO wobble at all. Just perfect and stable. I've run over larger bumps at lower speeds and the bike just works perfectly over them. Be loose on the bars. If you really want a steering damper though, get one... Don't make a decision based on what I say  . There's a Yamaha commercial that mentions that at track speeds fear IS present, it just hasn't caught up yet. That's true. Don't let the fear catch up and you'll stay loose on the bars. Just AFTER something happens... Sure, slow down and re-evaluate life . | ||
| Fullpower |
first time i pulled the front wheel up while healed over was on the sportster, i was utterly amazed: the bike was stable, and continued through the corner, as if front traction was completely un needed. i do not understand the physics of the whole deal, but aparantly one can wheelie out of a corner with sufficient rear traction. now if you break loose the rear at this point you have problems. the XB will also as you noted pull the front wheel, but is a bit harder to control in the corner. probably due to such short wheelbase. i have NOT mastered the technique. | ||
| Bluefirebolt |
i've that all the time ,kinda like it  | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
M1 a properly adjusted steering damper will do what you just spoke of, only slower, it just slows the reactions of the bars to the severe inputs. I think the reality of your situation when it happened is you were past the apex and online heading out when the front lifted, allowing the rear to continue in its present course right online. But as you were still leaned it felt like you hadn't gone past the apex yet. | ||
| M1combat |
I was past the apex. I was in between two corners and the combination of full throttle in second and snapping from a high lean angle right to a high lean angle left caused the front to come up. Because I still needed to attain left lean angle I was still turning the bars to the right. When the front lifted, the lean angle stabilized (I was still a little to the right, maybe 8-12 degrees) then the front touched with the added steering input. It INSTANTLY snapped back to where it needed to be and I continued applying the same force that I had been. The bike then snapped over to the left like I wanted it to and away I went. If I cad a steering damper set to anything but the lowest of low settings I believe that the bars would not have snapped back to equilibrium as quickly as they did. I think this would have caused a greater distance between where I had decided I wanted to be and where I ended up. I suppose I may not have actually hit the rail (because I tend to stay at least a few feet from them anyway), but it just seems to me that if the bike will instantly snap the bars back to equilibrium w/o any overshoot at all, then a steering damper isn't needed. I've landed a few jumps/wheelies with the bars turned just a tad as well, and it is the same in that situation. I can't imagine that it could get any better than an instant return to equilibrium with no oscillation (or extremely little anyway, none that I could tell). In any case, I just think that as long as you practice proper technique (being loose on the bars) then a steering damper is not needed on a Buell. I think it has to do with the gyroscopic precession of the ZTL rotor which I hear is 1.6 times as great as a standard dual rotor setup. I think it acts a lot like a damper at a very low setting. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Don my elbow disagress with you on that...when my tank slapper started I all but let go of the bars, using my palms to lighten my inputs as I leaned back trying to get weight off the front as smoothly as possible. I seriously think a steering stabilizer would have helped alot in my accident. However, a steering stabilizer is a comprimise and an aid for situations where your steering can get compromised by outside forces. | ||
| M1combat |
Well... Your elbow incident started with the rear off the ground yes ? I agree that there are indeed situations where a damper will help, but I just think that there are also situations where they won't and some where they will possibly cause problems. I suppose I'm not dead set against them exactly, but I think that lifting the front coming out of a corner is a much more "normal" situation than lifting the rear in a straight line . It seems to me that in the "normal" situations, that the Buell doesn't need one at all. Sure, if you lift the rear wheel, throw it to one side, and then allow it to slam back to the ground maybe a steering damper would have helped . I think if I put a damper on my bike (which I might) it would ideally be like the one on the new CBR's. Of course, I can't do that, so I'll most likely have to settle for the underslung Racing Motocycles damper like everyone else . I guess it just seems to me that the Buell is exceedingly stable in all but the most violent and abnormal situations. In those violent and abnormal situations, it's very unlikely that it can be saved anyway so why put up with the drawbacks when apparently the XB (IMHO) won't really benefit from the benefits of a damper? All that said... I've never used a damper but I have indeed used an XB. I understand the concept of a damper and what they do, but I just see them as a device that will slow down the natural tendency of the bike to correct itself, which the Buell has in spades. Other bikes (from what I have learned) tend to overcorrect themselves to a greater extent than the Buell does. Anyway, there are good arguements from both sides of the fence. That's why I'll most likely get one and just always run it at it's lowest setting or close to it... | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
If the tank slapper hadn't started while the butt end of the bike was still in the air, the rear wheel would have come down straight instead of off to the side:P Like I was saying, a properly adjusted steering damper will only kick in when there is a sever or unusually rapid change in the bars directions. A damper isn't suppossed to affect the natural steering of the bike. Yes the CBR styles are nice and I too wish I could have one, I am wondering if a billet brace can be made to attach at the two fairing mounting tabs on the steering neck... | ||
| M1combat |
There is a brace that mounts to the two front fasteners for the airbox cover. Then you can mount a rotary damper on the upper clamp... Al Lighton asked if this might compromise the breakaway steering head design and didn't get an answer. I can't remember who posted it, but as I recall it was the guy who made it (trojan, hillbilly... Something like that) but Al might... The Honda damper is controlled by the ECM, so we can't mount that one in any case... | ||
| M1combat |
Now I'm thinkin'... What if a steering damper was designed to only be effective in the first 3 degrees of travel in either direction from center AND when the steering head is turning very fast? Kind of like a detent in the center of the travel so that if the damper detects a VERY rapid change from left to right it would catch it for a split second in the center to remove it's inertia, then release it so that it would move to attain equilibrium? | ||
| Anonymous |
M1, Actually, the ZTL front rotor and wheel set up has less gyro than a typical dual set up. Really. And by a significant number. Don't believe anyone who tells you differently; I have seen the numbers. There might even be a magazine article in the not to distant future that speaks to this. Finally someone looked at numbers instead of listening to the Honda/Ducati salesmen. | ||
| M1combat |
I believe it was Blake who worked out the numbers... but there may have been some guessing involved in the mass of the rotor... | ||
| 12r |
Respect for all your replies. More practice required ! | ||
| Bud |
never ever felt the need for a steering damper on my buell that is | ||
| M1combat |
Oh and BTW... "Finally someone looked at numbers instead of listening to the Honda/Ducati salesmen." If I was the type to do that, I'd probably be riding one... | ||
| Scuze1butt |
Hasn't anyone here ridden in the dirt? During a tank slapper the last thing you want to do is back off the throttle, hit the gas! | ||
| Anonymous |
During a tank slapper, you need to loosen up and shift forward to weight the front. Leaning back just increases the oscillation as the front lightens. | ||
| M1combat |
Unless you can get the front off the ground... |
