| Author | Message | ||
     Black |
Court, I don't mean to start a fire storm, but was just wondering. For context, when I bought my first X-1 in 2005, the dealer told me that I should only go to Harley/Buell dealers, that all Harley dealers were not Buell dealers. I didn't quite get it, but knowing my X-1 had a modified Sportster engine, I went to a Harley (only) dealer in my area. I asked at the parts counter if I could get them to check a part number for spark plugs. The parts guy asked my what bike I owned and I told him a Buell X-1. He proceeded to tell me (with attitude) that they couldn't order Buell parts or repair a Buell, including doing an oil change, even if it had a Sportster engine. I told him that I was sure that he had the part and handed him a spark plug still in the package with a Harley parts number. He went into the parts room and came out with a plug, but told me that they were V-Rod plugs. I then asked him if he would mind selling me some V-Rod plugs. Now, I actually buy a lot of things there. I think they are a pretty good dealership. I get my bikes inspected there, and I don't even mind if they tell me that they have parked my bike out by the "...real Harleys". I was riding Harleys a VERY long time ago and am not bothered by the whole lifestyle macho thing. Anyway, times are bad for Harley right now. I can only compare my amazement at my treatment as a Buell owner to hypothetically, going to a Ford dealer with my F-150 and being told that they only worked on Festivas. Now that would be unimaginable for Ford. Why is it not unimaginable for Harley-Davidson? Maybe that was not an "apples to apples" comparison, but it seems like a pretty bad business plan to turn away business. So, what gives? | ||
| Froggy |
To give you a short quick answer, the Buell dealers have separate dealer agreements, fees and stuff. For your Ford comparison, go to your local Ford dealer that doesn't do Mercury and try to get Mercury parts. This protects Buell dealers that bear the extra expenses and burdens to put the Buells on the floor. If you were a Buell dealer, how would you feel if your customers were buying all the crap they need from a dealer that has no Buells on the floor, not a single shirt on the racks, and hell not even oil filters in stock. | ||
| Court |
Froggy has pretty well nailed it. There are 2 components to your post and (I'm pleased to tell you after 20+ years of being smack dab in the middle of Buell stuff) that it's pretty tough to set off a fire storm with me. You question is a common one and a good one. Think of a big Venn diagram. Buell dealers are, of necessity (more on that in a moment) a subset of the Harley-Davidson dealers. I'll go Boolean on you and say "all Buell dealers MUST be a Harley-Davidson dealer but not all Harley-Davidson dealers are Buell dealers". Here are a couple of the dynamics. For fun, and if you aspire to how the commercial and noncommercial elements collide, ask yourself as you read each one how you'd feel from being in differing parts of the relationship. FIRST - You MUST be a Harley-Davidson dealer to apply to become a Buell dealer. The presumptive reason is that the dealer must have HD commercial (Talon, Lightspeed or some equivalent) installed to "communicate" with Buell Distribution Corp. ( a wholly owned HD subsidiary independent from Buell MOTORCYCLE Company) for parts, service training, dealer issues and so forth. SECOND - If you have popped out the bucks and invested in becoming a Buell dealer only to see the Harley-Davidson store offering "Harley parts that will fit your Buell perfectly" and Buell service specials your commercial motivation would be severely eroded. Augment the above with a host of non-commercial issues, false ideas of market protection, ego and mindset and you can get a host of responses from the simple honest explanation to some fairly belligerent jokes about "real" Harley-Davidson bikes. I think you did a masterful job of recognizing, analyzing and adapting to the situation to allow you to conveniently get the things you need to take care of your bike. I'll be you also have a keen sense that although the dealer could surely change your oil they could be swell mechanics but easily overlook a problem with your EDI system or find it and be untrained to resolve it. I have expectations and hopes that we will see some innovative and creative changes in the coming couple years. I'd give it a about a 50% chance based on HD internal politics, the economy and how galvanized the folks at HD get . . . . will they get defensive or get smart? I hope that sheds a bit of light on your question. Court | ||
| 2008xb12scg |
This makes me think I would rather support the H.D. dealer that would support the Buell brand. | ||
| Court |
>>>>This makes me think I would rather support the H.D. dealer that would support the Buell brand. I'd tend to concur with you . . . . no so much simply as an indicator of affinity toward Buell but as patent evidence to undertaking new ideas, an open mind and understanding that there is a wonderful market out there but it's changing in ways no one could ever have imagined. We are entering a new age of opportunity. Folks will tell you much about how they are positioned, mentally and commercially, by the way they talk about Buell. Listen closely. Every time you hear the word "Buell" substitute "innovative ways of earning your business". | ||
| Garyz28 |
I have bought parts for my Camaro at the local Pontiac dealer. I have also bought parts for my GMC at a Chevrolet dealer. It seems to work for GM. | ||
| Court |
>>>>It seems to work for GM. This is the same GM that couldn't wait until after Xmas and had to have the $4,000,000,000 dollars a couple weeks ago to stay afloat? We're talking about Harley-Davidson, the company that has accumulated more consecutive quarters of increased earnings than any company in the history of American business. While I agree that it would work for GM I'd never make the "golf balls and eggs appear similar therefore must behave the same" leap of faith and say it would be wise for Harley-Davidson to allow a non-Buell dealer to undercut a Buell dealer 17 miles away. (Message edited by court on January 04, 2009) | ||
| Black |
Thanks for your kind comments. Roger all. I hope you are right. I think many dealerships have become too comfortable selling a lifestyle vice a motorcycle. I have developed a prejudice. When I see a Buell dealer, I assume trained mechanics. When I see Harley only, I assume oil changes and accessories. | ||
| Black |
Wait a minute there! Garyz28 has a point, and GM's present problems have nothing to do with that point. GM has the same problem that Ford, and Toyota, and every other car maker has....nobody is buying. They aren't turning people away because they don't want to deal with a product. Also, if I put all of my Buell gear on Ebay, I would undercut every Buell dealer around for a hundred miles. I have at least five t-shirts you know! Not many dealers can say that. | ||
| Kilroy |
I drive right past an "HD only" dealer, 4 miles from my house, on my way to the nearest HD/Buell dealer some 35 miles away, because they wouldn't change a tire on my Buell. Hell, even the Honda dealer in town will put a tire on my Buell, all I have to do is give them money. If, and when, that dealer makes the mindset change, might be too late for folks like me. I spend a lot of $$ keeping my ol' tuber running... | ||
| Black |
Yup, I that vein, when I got my first Buell, I dropped by a metric dealership near my son, who rides a Kawasaki, to pick up some parts. In the course of talking with a salesman there I mentioned my treatment at a Harley-only dealership (same story as above). The salesman asked why I didn't just bring my bike there. I replied that he was a metric dealer. He told me that they had a contract with a local municipality to maintain the police force motorcycles, which were Harleys. I said, "Well this is a Buell". He told me that it had a Sportster engine and that they could do the work. Was he lying? I don't know. But, I couldn't make this stuff up. It is just too crazy to me. With Buell a company wholly owned by Harley, how can Harley dealers not support Harley? How can Harley let them? That is the crazy part to me. I'll shut up now. Just wanted to get that off my chest as it has been bothering me for a long time. Thanks for listening. (Message edited by Black on January 06, 2009) | ||
| Ratbuell |
Speaking (carefully) as a dealer employee (not an exec or a dealer owner, just a salesman), there is a huge difference between the GM analogy and the way things work for HD/Buell. From Wikipedia: "In 2007, nearly 9.37 million GM cars and trucks were sold globally under the following brands: Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GM Daewoo, GMC, Holden, Hummer, Opel, Pontiac, Saab, Saturn, Vauxhall, and Wuling" Buying Chevy parts at a Pontiac dealer isn't close to comparing. Think about walking into a Chevy dealer and asking for Vauxhall, Opel, Daewoo or Saab parts - ain't gonna happen. *Despite* what many folks think, Buells are NOT made by Harley Davidson. Yes, the company is owned by HD...but Buell motorcycles are made by completely different people, in a completely different location, and are a completely different product with completely different parts and components. Buell has some *heritage* with HD parts, but as of now I think oil, spark plugs, and a Dyna oil filter are about the only interchangable items (OK - fuses and light bulbs too). Dealers *elect* to become Buell dealers, it is not automatic. Lately, in this region, many dealers have elected to "un-become" Buell dealers. There is no dealership rule stating "thou shalt also carry the Buell brand of motorcycles" - a dealer has to *want* to do it. It's a big step for a dealer to make that choice, on many levels. As noted above, HD dealers cannot order/stock Buell parts unless they are a Buell dealer. That is put into place not to inconvenience the Buell customer (again, think of trying to get Daewoo parts at a Chevy dealer), but to protect the Buell dealer. Is there room for improvement? Yep. Is it happening? Absolutely, on a near-daily basis. Think about it this way: nearly-omnipresent HD has been at it for 106 years, and gotten plenty of practice at things in that time. Buell? 26 years. We're (Buell dealers) still learning, at least by comparison. | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
FWIW: Plenty of Buell parts have HD part numbers. | ||
| Black |
Rat, Thanks. I understand the whole MacDonalds thing, that the "participating" dealer might not want to have the Chicken Macnuggets special. The idea that Harley is protecting their Buell dealers by sending their customers to the local metric dealer, I don't understand. I don't understand the business model of sending customers away because a dealer doesn't want to deal with a product line. I just think that Harley should make all of their dealers Buell dealers. Additional training and new product lines might make Harley, as a whole, even more competitive. Maybe I should not have used a car analogy when describing my issue. Let's use a motorcycle reality. My local metric dealer sells everything made in Japan, plus Ducati, plus Vespa, plus boats, plus generators. They want my business where Harley evidently does not. Please don't take anything personally ok? You and your outfit are a GREAT dealership. I see you often and it is a 45 plus mile drive for me to get there. That speaks for itself. (Message edited by Black on January 07, 2009) (Message edited by Black on January 07, 2009) | ||
| F_skinner |
HD dealers cannot order/stock Buell parts unless they are a Buell dealer. That is put into place not to inconvenience the Buell customer (again, think of trying to get Daewoo parts at a Chevy dealer), but to protect the Buell dealer. Joe, I am not getting this. I do not understand how this is protecting the Buell dealership if I can only order parts through a Buell dealer. Competition maybe? In other words if a Harley Dealer wants to carry Buell then they will be assured that people can order Buell parts through them and not the dealership down the street since they do not carry Buells. That sounds ok unless that Buell dealership is not really concern about the Buell customer since they are the only game in town. Besides, Buell is just a stepping stone to a HD like the Sportster is to a Big Twin? HDs new deal on the Sporty (trade within a year at full price towards a big twin, which they did in the early 80's) makes the Sporty a disposable bike. (Sorry, had to vent) That is exactly what has happen in Colorado Springs. They are the only game in town for Buell, HD (two locations), BMW, Ducati, Aprilia, Moto Guzzi, some South Korean brand etc. You have to go to them at one of their three, soon to be four locations, there is no one else that sells those brands in town. Your closest choice is Denver. The best choice is Fredrick 110 miles North of me. Not a big deal in the summer but a challenge in the winter. Now if I can order on-line (I know, I am a broken record) that eliminates my dependence on a dealer that carries the brand, but does not like the brand, I ride. It is too bad the aftermarket companies did not latch on to Buell like they did HD. I would have a Gold Card with J&P if that were the case. Victory, in this case, gets it! Thanks for your insight Joe. It will be interesting, as Buell grows, to see what happens.} | ||
| Panhead_dan |
"Buell is just a stepping stone to a HD like the Sportster is to a Big Twin?" I disagree. I, and many others come from the HD crowd. We stepped up to Buell and there aint no goin back! | ||
| F_skinner |
Dan, that was sarcasm. I, until recently, have had a HD since 1979. I wanted to reflect the attitude of some dealers. NOT all dealers of course. I actually think the percentage of poor dealers is getting smaller. I also have a theory that a poor Buell dealer is also a poor HD dealer. I hate it when Harley (corporate HD) treats the Sportster and or Buell as a stepping stone to a bigger (more expensive) bike. The "new" incentive deal to trade in a Sporty, while profitable, makes the Sporty disposable. IMO (Message edited by f_skinner on January 07, 2009) | ||
| Garyz28 |
A salesman at my local H-D dealer actually suggested that after a couple years I might be ready to "move up" to a big Harley. I guess in his mind the Uly is just a funny looking Sporty. | ||
| Davegess |
One of ther many issues is profitability. Buell sells enough MC in the USA to provide a resonable level of profit (enough to make the dealer happy and enthusiastic about the bikes) for perhaps half the existing dealers. The rest are bettign on the future. A big part of the profit is from spares and service. These two things cost a dealer money, if he can't sell enough parts why carry the overhead of even having parts? If the trained Buell tech only gets 4 service jobs a month why pay to have a Buell trained tech. Sure in the short term it would be convenient for owners to have every H-D dealer be a Buell dealer but very quickly you would return to the setup of two years ago - the vast majority of dealers whoul have no knowledge or interest in the brand because they lost money on it. You would get untrained techs messing up your bike, parts guys getting you the wrong parts etc. We have move far beyond those black days and still have a way to go BUT signing up MORE dealers would set us back years. | ||
| Black |
Thanks to all, I appreciate the comments on my original post. I guess that I have been beating a dead horse. My reason for the post, is that I think that Harley dealers should be nice to me when I am spending money with them, even if it is on their wholly owned Buell subsidiary, vice Harley proper. Nobody has justified bad treatment of customers to me thus far....and I can infer that there are a lot of folks that are as unhappy as me with HD. For Dave, I think that having technicians that are multidisciplinary (Buell/Harley) would make sense on many levels. I want smart, well-trained guys working on my machines....'cause I'm paying money for it. I also can't imagine dealers stockpiling parts. I figure that they have been Six Sigma-ed to death by now with all that "just in time" supply stuff. What that means to me is it ain't in stock and I can wait six weeks for it, if I want it. I think that if I were a dealer, I would embrace the things that were profitable. If Buell were not profitable for me, especially in light of their sales during this difficult economic period, I would probably look at myself as the culprit. If I am not selling well a product that sells well, the problem might be something other than the product. But then....I am not a Harley dealer. I think about that often as I drive by Harley-only dealers that don't want my business to drive an additional 45 to 75 miles to find somebody to work on my bike. Anyway, happy new year all. Later! | ||
| Ratbuell |
I think DaveG hit it on the head - Buell just crossed the 125,000th bike mark...and that's since '83 (although things are picking up - 125k was an '08 or '09 1125r that went to Oz; 100k was only 2 years ago and is - as far as I know - Erik's personal '06 Uly). Harley probably produces close to 125k in a year, I'll have to research that. But, end result is, there just aren't enough Buells or Buellers out there (yet) to justify every single HD dealer (there's LOTS of them) stocking Buell parts, and Buell gear, and Buell motorcycles. The numbers (as in *volume*, not dollars) just aren't there. When it comes to inventory, we're talking dollars and cents - the parts on the shelves aren't free, nor are the shirts, nor are the bikes. The longer a dealer holds them, the more people look at them and say "we could have that space for HD stuff, and actually turn a profit", because HD "stuff" turns over much faster than Buell "stuff", simply because of the number of bikes and owners out there. I don't think HD is "sending buyers to metric dealers" by not having Buell stuff in every location. I think they're leaving it up to us to *draw* the customers to us. It's tough, especially if you have a dealer near you who carries Buell but is more...passive, we'll say, about it. Is the end result, sometimes, that buyers go to UJM dealers? Yup. Is that the intent? Not at all. Think about it this way - how many BMW dealers are in your area? They're similar to HD/Buell as far as franchise rights / co-branding rules are concerned - you don't see many dealers that carry BMW, *and* something, *and* something else. If you look at it that way, Buell isn't doing too badly as far as dealer population. Sure, we don't have the Honda, Kaw, Yamaha dealer network (or HD, for that matter), but things really could be a lot worse. Frank - the XL deal is very similar to a Blast deal from a few years back, IIRC. In the end what it's going to do is keep resale values high, in addition to trade values - dealers are committed to MSRP numbers on trade, and have to resell them without losing their a$$es...so the new *and* used markets are protected. Value of the product. Oh, and it'll help move big twins in this economy. And people wonder how HD has made it for 106 years? | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
And people wonder how HD has made it for 106 years? In a word- marketing. PT Barnum would be so proud. It's certainly not by producing a superior product. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Ok, I'm just a new guy around here but.... has anyone ever put together a H/D-buell part cross reference together? I did a search here on the forum and came up with a thread about a Blast oil filter x-ref, but nothing more comprehensive. I don't want to hose the Buell dealers, whom I'm going to support whenever possible, but the closest to me is almost 2hrs away and the HD dealer is 15min. | ||
| Froggy |
Sayitaintso, there isn't really much that crosses anymore. Oil filters, oils, random bolts, washers, carbon canister, headlight bulbs, and a few other little things. The older tube frame bikes had more in common with the sportster, but not much. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Thanks, thats good to know. As I'm around here I'll pick up more and more from you all. Until then, please put up with my sometime stupid and tactless questions. | ||
| Court |
Best bet is to get the parts (along with the Service) manual for your particular bike, find a reputable (Badweb sponsors are an excellent place to start) dealer and purchase online. Some of the better dealers are starting to get the hang of this and are doing a better job all the time. Another option that'll make you feel like the smartest person in the world for buying a Buell is to contact American Sport Bike. | ||
| Black |
Looks to me like the whole issue is that Harley Dealers used to get more Harleys if they sold Buells. I am told....(is it true?) that Harley dealers no longer get extra Harleys for selling Buells. If that is true, it would explain a lot. | ||
| Diablobrian |
Yeah, Al at American Sport Bike is a great guy....that happens to also sell Buell parts. Joanne, Al's better half is also a joy to deal with. |
