| Author | Message | ||
     Jomartijr |
So this is, what, 4 or 5 engines in 07 Ulys with crank or lower end failures at 25-30k miles? That's too many to mark up to manufacturing anamolies plus one source from Erik Buell Racing said engine production rates were ramped up in 2007 resulting in some quality issues with crankshafts if I recall correctly. Build dates in failed engines according to my records- Hughes Sept 2006 Towpro Jul 2006 Dirtbike Sept 2006 Rdkingrider June 2007 Skifastbadly ? Are there anymore not on this list? My thinking is excess carbon buildup is likley to be present in bikes produced other times and to date the failure seems to be a trend of the above mfr dates. So I suggest production dates bear more on looking at the problem source than carbon. I have a 2007 Uly, production date of June 2006 with only about 6k miles so though I think I have time to plan what to do exactly what course of action to take is the question. None of the alternatives is attractive- that is replacing the crankshaft, replacing the engine or selling the bike and putting the issue on someone else's plate. I have little hope that The Motor Company ( ironic name considering this problem) will step up and handle this for unfortunate owners. And one wonders if Harley had some knowledge of this crank problem which is why 2008s came equipped with larger crankpins and changed oil pumps. Basically I think some of us have been screwed by a bad corporate or supplier decision. How to salvage the situation without considerable money out of owners' pockets is the issue. (Message edited by jomartijr on August 13, 2011) (Message edited by jomartijr on August 13, 2011) | ||
| Rdkingryder |
Sorry for the really bad pictures, I got lazy and didn't set up any lights.   Kind of surprised by the worn cross hatching. | ||
| Etennuly |
Do those worn areas line up with the bolt holes around the cylinder? | ||
| Dio |
Who makes a good additive for fuel that really works as a combustion chamber cleaner that really removes carbon deposits? I see Seafoam mentioned above, but I would like something that "meets all the promises in the full color brochure". I tried some of BG's 44K, 5 tank fulls of fuel at the recommended mix, and am disappointed with the results as viewed through the spark plug holes. Any products that fill my request? | ||
| Sharkguy |
The piston skirt "scuffing" on the cylinder bore is one thing, but what is that line of corroded looking area opposite of it on the cylinder wall? It looks like it had water or some other corrosive material that then sat and ate into your cylinder sleeve. Or a bad cylinder sleeve to begin with. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Dio- nothing you add to the fuel is going to remove significant carbon build-up from the combustion chambers. Seafoam recommends disconnecting a vacuum line from the intake of the engine & allowing it to suck some Seafoam into the engine, then quickly shut it down & let it soak for a while so the stuff has a chace to work on the carbon. IIRC, there's an unused vacuum connection on the TB you could hook a hose to for this. I believe you can carefully pour a small stream into the TB of a running engine to get it in the engine as well. I've also read that a 50/50 mixture of water & brake fluid (shaken well to make a foamy mixture) works well. Same process- add, shut off, soak. In either case, you'll get loads of smoke when you re-start. | ||
| Od_cleaver |
Do you folks use Top Tier gasoline? From toptiergas.com>>> "The intention of the TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline standards is to create a winning situation for gasoline retailers, auto manufacturers and drivers. Currently, many gasoline retailers provide fuels with lower-quality additive packages that can build up deposits on fuel injectors and on intake valves. Others can build up deposits in combustion chambers and may lead to intake valve sticking. These lower levels of additives can have negative impacts on engine performance and vehicle responsiveness." | ||
| Rdkingryder |
SG, that's just carbon left behind from the rings or top of piston when the rings hit the bottom edge of the sleeve and stopped. Had to yank on the barrel to get it past and that's the result. | ||
| Etennuly |
The cause of the carbon being a problem on the GM engines was that there was about 20 thousandths clearance between the head and the flat top piston. Carbon build up while running was not the issue. The engines would only knock for a short time on start up usually in humid conditions. We found that as the engine shuts off some of the valves stay open in a position that would allow outside air to enter during like an overnight time soak. This humidity would soften and possibly curl some of the carbon. On start up the piston would hit it mashing it back to form, however, it caused the piston to rock making the skirt hit the cylinder wall and hammering undue force on the rod bearings for just that couple of revolutions when it would knock. Some of these engines that I was involved with had no babbit left on the rod bearings at 40,000 miles. They only knocked on start up and otherwise ran fine even showing good oil pressure. My replacement brand new 1997 GM truck had me a bit pissed when it started knocking at 700 miles. When I called customer service to be treated like a know nothing about it idiot, just after I had just gone through a six month, two engines later, buy back on my first new 1997 suburban. Rather than go through the relentless hours turning into months of BS with GM customer service, I built my own engine for this new truck. At the first oil change interval I installed it. I used their entire upper engine collective so the computer and all the emission equipment would work properly. I just slipped my new short block in under their heads. The only change I made was to restrict the EGR's amount of exhaust gas that could pass into the intake by about 75%. 10,000 miles later I cleaned the carbon from the original engine, slipped it back in. It again ran about 700 miles until it started knocking. I then traded it on my first new Dodge. Was it carbon build up that was killing these engines? Yes. Along with close clearances between a flat top piston and a flat head chamber. There were thousands of these trucks. Seven were sitting at the dealership I used to work at as they tried to figure it out. They could not just change their EGR set up to fix it, because they leaned on that and the high compression to pass emission standards. I don't know what their eventual fix was, but my new '98 Dodge had no problems at all in the three years we owned it. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
I've heard that dripping water into the intake stream will steam clean the combustion chamber and it actually makes sense. Certainly spraying water onto the air cleaner would do the same thing or riding in the rain. Best part is that it doesn't really lighten the wallet like the rest of the snake oils mentioned. My son's bike is a May 07 build ULY. No problems yet but then it only has about 15,000 miles. | ||
| Dfishman |
I built a '67 VW Squareback & spent lots of time CCing & polishing the combustion chambers.I used auto trans fluid dribbled down the carb throats while running the engine to keep the carbon cleaned.Pulled a head after 20000 hard miles & hardley any carbon. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
When I did my breather mod, I was amazed at the amount of crap on the inside of my velocity stack. I can imagine that a lot of that has ended up as carbon buildup inside my combustion chambers. .. | ||
| Paul56 |
Water turning to steam in the combustion chamber does an amazing job of cleaning. If you've ever seen a water cooled engine torn down that had a slight coolant leak into one cylinder you know what I mean. No carbon. The bottom picture of the cylinder shows scuffing (vertical scratches around the 10 o'clock position) which I imagine correspond with the marks on the piston skirt posted earlier. This would be of concern to me. The other wear looks to be minimal. My 06 now has 96000 miles on it. If and when I ever tear it down I'll post pictures. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Using the water/brake fluid mixture is supposed to provide the benefits of both water ("steam cleaning") and brake fluid (softens carbon). I did the breather mod on my 09 engine before I installed it, so hopefully it won't have this problem, but a de-carbonizing at some point might still be a good idea. | ||
| Motorfish |
I`ve heard of using a perfume atomizer with water in it, to spray a fine mist into the intake while running to break up the carbon. Reminds me of the water injection systems that Edelbrock used to sell for cars. I don`t think I ever did it on my trucks or bikes, so I can`t say if it works. I never heard of mixing brake fluid with it, worth a try. Etenn, what year Vortec engines are you referring to? I have a `99 Tahoe with a 350. It now has 145k on it, runs great with no pinging. I have always ran regular gas (87 octane). I have run Sea Foam once, a while ago, but did not notice any great differences. I am considering getting the injectors cleaned but don`t know what method is best. Uh sorry, wondering off topic a bit. | ||
| Etennuly |
It was '97 and early '98. I'm not sure how they sorted it out, but I had my methods. From what I read the majority of them did not do it. I don't know if different fuels different humidity or what made them not do it. I do know there were thousands of them that did have the knock on start up. It was not a pinging. It was a hard knock for about the first three revolutions of the engine, not unlike if someone smacked the engine block with a three pound hammer a few times on start up. GM kept this silent and avoided a recall, somehow it did not get very much publicity like the random brake failure that mine also had. They swapped engines in mine to have it do it again in 600 miles or so. GM was telling us, the customers, to drive it, if it blows up they will replace it. The dealership I worked at had a mechanic who would take care of a bad knocker with a board on the gas pedal. I truly enjoyed working across the shop from his bay, it was fun to watch! | ||
| Towpro |
rdkingrider, what kind of air filter did you run? Just wondering. | ||
| Rdkingryder |
TP, the factory one. | ||
| Rdkingryder |
Ok, seems we are starting to have a run of bad '07 engines. I'm not agreeing with the carbon theory. I think it's a question of the hardening of the crank pin. It's why I was looking into having my crank repaired instead of replacing it. But the costs were just as much as a new '08 crank. Chicago Harley has them listed at $634, but with their discount, it's about $570, not that bad really. I figure I can slip just under $1K for everything. Waiting for my crank right now. | ||
| Rdkingryder |
Ok, my crank is on the way. So now I can tear into the rest of the engine and find out what I need to order, gaskets, rings, etc. Yes, I believe the jugs are worth just deglazing and slapping some rings on the pistons, crank, maybe an XB9 primary, but it's $134 for something I'm not sure I need. | ||
| Rdkingryder |
Ok, I've posted the engine question over at the Buell XB.com forum and asked that they post any engine problems with their XB's. Hopefully it will be an isolated case, but I have a feeling it'll be more than we thought. How many cranks are made in an allotment I wonder? 80? 100? 10? | ||
| Towpro |
I have seen Towpro listed with Crank Failure on several post the last couple days. Not sure where this came from as my 07 never had crank problems in the year that I owned it. | ||
| Jomartijr |
Towpro, My mistake due to misinterpreting your post of 04/02/11 on Hughe's original engine disassy and replacement thread in which you described your bike build date. Too much assumption here and your's should be removed from the list. | ||
| Skifastbadly |
Could be my bad, I was sitting around Missoula with nothing to do for a couple of days and I put that list together. Somehow I got a false positive on Towpro. Unfortunately, there's a limit on how long before one cannot edit a post and that limit has passed. The thread hasn't been updated for a couple of days, maybe we have all the active BadWebbers who've had the failure. | ||
| Gringo |
id like to add one more to the list. its not mine and i will try to get the data on it. the failure was one rod bearing on the crank apparently disintegrated, mechanic friend said it was kinda noisy. bike looked to be an 07 and i will follow up. i asked if it was warranty cause looks to me to be a design / mfg problem, that kinda stuff shouldnt never ever fail like that i say. same dealer wouldnt warranty a muffler strap on my 09 which failed cause the bolt holding the support got lost, less than 6k miles. they say im supposed to expect bolts to loosen. ok, now what. | ||
| Rdkingryder |
 My crank came today. | ||
| Rdkingryder |
Is there a source for part numbers? I am in the process of ordering parts for my engine. Gaskets, rings, etc. Thanks. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Roland- you need the factory parts book. If you'll PM me a list of what you need, I'll be glad to look them up for you. | ||
| Rdkingryder |
pm sent | ||
| Rdkingryder |
I think I may have bit off more than I can chew....  Reading the manual, I need at least three special tools, a clutch spring compressor, a drive sprocket holder and a crank gear holder.  The large sprocket needs to be held so I can get that large nut off. The crank holder allows me to get the smaller nut off the crank near the oil pump drive on the right side of the picture.  The clutch spring needs to be depressed so I can get the snap ring off without "death or injury" occurring. I don't suppose an inmate has these tools to rent out to me? I could check Harley and see if they are available. (Message edited by rdkingryder on September 03, 2011) |
