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Blake
| | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 10:13 pm: | 
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Funny how we were just talking about Mladin... He just extended his contract with Suzuki for another two years. Says he really likes living in America. RRW has a copy of the press release...
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6606 |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 07:42 pm: |
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quote:Supersport isn't the top class in any racing series I know
FUSA Sportbike is their premiere class, with the longest race (28 laps) and largest purse. This class is very similar to the new AMA FX and is based around 600cc IL4's.
For FX type classes, displacement increases are fine as long as they are practical and not outrageously expensive. Buells belong there.
For Stock based classes, no major santioning body around the world allows overboring. As it should be. 1336cc Buells don't belong in Supersport.
Keep reading, you'll find it if you really want to. Better yet, go to a race.
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 09:16 pm: |
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In addition, AMA and World Supersport have more factory bikes and riders than their respective Superbike classes.
It is also the most sensitive to "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" of all the classes.
By those standards, Supersport is the "Top" Class in AMA and WSBK. |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 07:53 pm: |
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Time to start this up again:
FIM is getting rid of restrictors
and
NO HONDA for 2004
That sounds like an oximoron dont it, so what your take Blake???
Roger |
Crusty
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 09:38 pm: |
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From AMA Superbike.com:
This interesting press release just in from AMA Pro Racing:
AMA PRO RACING AND FGSPORT WORKING TOGETHER TO CREATE UNIFIED SUPERBIKE RULES
PICKERINGTON, Ohio (July 9, 2003) - In an effort to strengthen Superbike racing globally, AMA Pro Racing and FGSport have confirmed their intention to cooperate in creating a unified rule structure. AMA Pro Racing CEO Scott Hollingsworth stated that his company is in ongoing discussions with FIM World Superbike organizer FGSport.
"Our joint goals are many," said Hollingsworth. "In addition to increasing the number of motorcycles on the grid, we'd like to see lowered costs, increased parity between factory-supported riders and privateers and a tightening of the performance gap between twins and multi-cylinder models. By working in harmony with FGSport we have an increased opportunity to achieve these common objectives."
Maurizio Flammini, President of FGSport concurs. "Adopting a unified rule structure will allow us to globalize the marketing opportunities for Superbike racing as well as stabilize rules in both the medium- and long-term. This will encourage the participation of teams and riders, from all over the world, to both championships."
An additional benefit to a unified national and world set of rules is that a "link" between the various championships will be created. This will not only grow the number of riders on a given grid, but lead to free circulation of riders (subject to wild card regulations) between championships.
Staff from AMA Pro Racing and FGSport will be meeting this weekend at the combined FIM World Superbike/AMA Superbike event at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca to continue discussions.
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Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 03:03 pm: |
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JQ,
I agree with stock displacements for a stock based class. Why not also enforce stock compression ratios?
In AMAPR, which class is the stepping stone to WSB or MotoGP? Superbike is the premiere racing class in AMAPR and FIM production based motorcycle road racing. To argue otherwise is silly.
"Keep reading, you'll find it if you really want to. Better yet, go to a race."
I have no idea what you mean by "it." There are no AMAPR or FUSA events anywhere near my area. I do race in CMRA. You?
Roger,
You would have to tell me the rest of the rules for me to comment. If all else in the WSB tech rules is equivalent for twins and fours, it is very unfortunate for the twins. I very much doubt that will be the case.
Did you read what Ducati said about SB rules for twins versus quad-cylinder machines and about the various organizations? They talked to RRW about their situation a week or two ago.
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Grndskpr
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 05:19 pm: |
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You would have to tell me the rest of the rules for me to comment
No other rules changes were mentioned, at least at this point, just that WSBK was thinking of dropping the restrictors, has to do with reducing the cost of racing, and making the series more like the AMA, i found that funny
Did you read what Ducati said about SB rules for twins versus quad-cylinder machines and about the various organizations
If it happened a week ago, no, however i did read what the VP of Ducati NA said in his interview, and how he would like to have some changes, but it didnt sound like he was going to push to hard, he was very PC on the whole deal, but as i have said before, it sounds like the rules changes have given them a reason to compete in the US, and again i belive the rules will change, when, and only when Ducati decides to PUT up, and use current race bikes, bblah, blah blah, all this has been said before, and it looks like its working
Going to be interesting
Roger
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Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 05:32 pm: |
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Yes, the Ducati N.A. VP said some interesting things...
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6487
You may have missed some of his main points. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 09:22 pm: |
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quote:Supersport isn't the top class in any racing series I know
To conveniently/purposely forget FUSA when making that statement is what is silly Blake. FUSA Sporbike and Superbike classes are based on and dominated by "Supersport" 600cc bikes.
About Ducati, the main point that they wanted to make was that they need a common set of rules so that they only have to prepare one bike for BSB, AMA and WSBK competition. Notice they never asked for additional displacement, they are fine with 1000cc for all bikes.
Tuneability and different minimum weights, yes, displacement, no.
The FIM and AMA are working toward that goal. The FIM is even talking about spec tires, conveniently the Italian Pirelli brand. Maybe the Italian dominated FIM had something to do with their tire choice???
However, the manufacturers are balking at these developments and are threatening to pull out of WSBK completely!!.
Favoritism and politics in FIM/WSBK racing, wow, what a surprise.
It will probably be more interesting to see what's going on behind the scenes at Laguna this weekend than what's going on out on the track.
edited by josé_quiñones on July 10, 2003 |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 11:08 pm: |
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Jose,
Quit trying to act like you know something about racing. You don't. You have to throw in a line saying "Look how they aren't complaining about displacement..." as a way of getting a jab in at Buell. Suck on a Suzuki. Bottom line is that if you really knew what was going on, you'd know that there has been serious dissent among the manufacturers as to the competitiveness of the rules.
Obviously when Ducati privateers are beating the factory four cylinders dramatically in Europe, it is not fair racing. Just look at the US to see what happens with unrestricted stock-based I4 motorcycles race against the full factory issue Ducatis (oh, that's right, the Ducati teams don't have access to works part...that $25 million budget is spent totally in other places).
Displacement, restrictors, weight differences are all ways of getting fair competition and are practiced in the majority of racing venues. There has been a lot of discussion that the Japanese factories were going to pull out if the rules weren't making for equitable racing. Now, with the tire spec rule, the organization has tipped them over. Hell, Ducati had to join in not to look like they were setting yup an Italian spec series!
What tips me over is your endless whining about any rules that allow different displacement and different modifications are unfair. You are completely out of touch with any racing, other than the racing around in your mental fantasies that is going on.
The best racing for spectators occurs when there is parity among different brands, so everyone can root for their team, with some hope of success. What happens is that because of short sighted greed, sometimes race organization leadership will make calls that make them quick money.
Sometimes this is overlooked if the people who are hurt don't have much clout (privateers, Buell, etc.). This time the World Superbike guys went too far, and kicked sand in the face of a gang of bullies. I hope the manufacturers start a new organization and scare the race organizations around the world into honesty foor a little while.
So, cut and pasting off web sites does not make you an expert. Putting input to the board is fine, but don't expect not to be seen as a fool by those of us who are deeply involved in racing when you add your "learned interpretation".
This whole topic is about racing organizations being bought off. This latest move just brightly lights the truth of what Blake stated. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 12:10 am: |
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JQ,
FUSA's Sportbike class has an entirely different set of rules than does AMA or FIM/WSB Supersport. They are not the same class, at all.
About Ducati, the main point that they wanted to make was that they need a common set of rules so that they only have to prepare one bike for BSB, AMA and WSBK competition. Notice they never asked for additional displacement, they are fine with 1000cc for all bikes.
Tuneability and different minimum weights, yes, displacement, no.
I'm not sure I would say that was their MAIN point. I agree, displacement is only one of many primary parameters affecting engine performance. Why would you think Ducati would not ask specifically for increased displacement? That would be another new engine they would need to design/manufacture, no? They do NOT want to have to do that, so what they are asking for are some reasonable limits on the IL4 literbikes. That makes good sense all around doesn't it? Everyone keeps their stock platform, but the IL4s are limited in some of their performance modifications. Makes perfect sense to me.
As to Ducati asking for Displacement considerations... I guess you missed where the Ducati N.A. VP talked about running a factory Ducati in AMA Supersport? Which bike do you suppose he would want to enter in AMAPR SS? Do you suppose that will require some form of change to the current AMAPR displacement limits? 
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Crusty
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 06:24 am: |
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This thread is up to 851 posts. Wow. How long DO you keep beating a dead horse?
Yes, AMA Pro Racing lies, is misleading and makes changes to the detriment of one business over another; just like any other successful business(including Buell). They still have the best racing series, the best riders, the most factory involvement, the most paying spectators and the most TV coverage.
For years I've listened to people badmouth the AMA. I've watched other series materialize that were going to improve the sport and put the AMA in its rightful place. They ALL fizzled. Kinda like Arena Football.
I really get tired of people with an agenda using statements from other people with an agenda to prove their point.
Blake, you're wrong. Period. You have your facts all lined up nice and pretty(with a few convenient omissions), but you're still wrong.
AMA Pro Racing isn't perfect, they make a lot of mistakes; but they do a better job than anyone else has or can do.
One last question; have you done anything to improve the wrongs that you find so unacceptable? Have you communicated your feelings to the AMA? Have you done one positive thing to help? |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 07:13 am: |
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quote:What tips me over is your endless whining about any rules that allow different displacement and different modifications are unfair.
My only problem is if a particular brand or type of engine is allowed a displacement that is greater than what you and I can buy at the showroom, like air cooled twins are allowed in AMA superstock and FUSA. FIM and everybody else does not allow such "adjustments". The FIM does allow 748's in Supersport, the AMA does not. But the difference is that Ducati sells the bike at 748cc, they don't sell a 600cc watercooled fully faired desmo twin then want to be allowed overboring to be competitive.
THe FIM is dominated by Italians, which might help to explain why they are allowed in. It explains a lot of other things, based on the latest developments.
If Blake wants to make the case that the Japanese control AMA, the same logic would lead you to conclude that the Italians control WSBK.
quote:This whole topic is about racing organizations being bought off. This latest move just brightly lights the truth of what Blake stated.
Read the subject of this header, It doesn't say "Sanctioning bodies seek to please....."
Blake would have you believe that this only applies to the AMA, when it is clear that every Sanctioning body is bought off to some degree or another, that has been my point all along.
Your personal attacks are a sure sign that you have lost the argument.
edited by josé_quiñones on July 11, 2003 |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 09:30 am: |
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Quit trying to act like you know something about racing. You don't. You have to throw in a line saying "Look how they aren't complaining about displacement..." as a way of getting a jab in at Buell. Suck on a Suzuki. Bottom line is that if you really knew what was going on, you'd know that there has been serious dissent among the manufacturers as to the competitiveness of the rules.
And posting as ANON makes you the expert, ya right, kinda like to pot calling the kettle Black, just a side note if it wasnt for people like Jose, and you are a racer(just a guess since you know SOOOO MUch) you should be ashamed of yourself, if you continue to treat people this way, they will not come out to the races, which will mean to some degree, a loss of interest, which leads to a drop, this is my opinion, again Blake alows an ANON coward to make personal atacks, very pooir taste
Obviously when Ducati privateers are beating the factory four cylinders dramatically in Europe, it is not fair racing.
Maybe you should post a series, because i have yet to see a factory Jap bike at the WSBJ level, making you sound like a retard, again my opinion
Oh and if you mention the british series, than you may not sound so uninformed, be a little clearer please, especially when you insult someone, it can and will back fire from time to time
Just look at the US to see what happens with unrestricted stock-based I4 motorcycles race against the full factory issue Ducatis (oh, that's right, the Ducati teams don't have access to works part...that $25 million budget is spent totally in other places).
Last years Ducati, VS this years IL4, and no its not a factory team, they get help, but not much, you of all people should know that, why dont you ask HMC, last years team
What tips me over is your endless whining about any rules that allow different displacement and different modifications are unfair. You are completely out of touch with any racing, other than the racing around in your mental fantasies that is going on.
More personal atacks, let me quess, Buell shoulr be allowed to compete in a stck class with a modified bike, yea that sounds great, you are the man, more personal atacks make you sound so informed, uhu ya right
The best racing for spectators occurs when there is parity among different brands, so everyone can root for their team, with some hope of success. What happens is that because of short sighted greed, sometimes race organization leadership will make calls that make them quick money
So your favorite racing MUST be the Boxer cup put on by BMW, i mean it has everything you want, even patriotism(thats a joke get it?)
So, cut and pasting off web sites does not make you an expert. Putting input to the board is fine, but don't expect not to be seen as a fool by those of us who are deeply involved in racing when you add your "learned interpretation".
And posting as an ANON make you the expert, sorry that dosnt fly with me, NO matter what Blake says, sticks and stones you know, maybe you should learn some manners
As to Ducati asking for Displacement considerations... I guess you missed where the Ducati N.A. VP talked about running a factory Ducati in AMA Supersport? Which bike do you suppose he would want to enter in AMAPR SS? Do you suppose that will require some form of change to the current AMAPR displacement limits?
And what makes you think he wants to run in SS class, they dont even do it at the world level, now you expect them to race here at this level, again this smaks of ignorance, but you know it all, show your face smart guy
Roger
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Jim_m
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 10:38 am: |
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Apparently, the manufacturers aren't happy with the tire rule change at WSB
from roadracingworld.com: "Manufacturers Quit World Superbike Over Spec Tire Plan" http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6661
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Smadd
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 10:48 am: |
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Did everybody read Crusty's posting of the manufacturer's response to rules changes? Read it or check out AMASuperbike.com under "news". The subject is "Black Thursday". |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 06:31 pm: |
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Roger,
I agree that anony was overzealous in his criticism of JQ. But that last statement that you attribute to anony was actually mine. FYI... The Ducati N.A. VP specifically stated his interest in getting Ducati racing in AMAPR SS. Read the article?
JQ,
Pointing out the lies and bias of AMAPR does in no way imply that other racing organizations do not suffer similar mismanagement. I don't know the intimate details or criticisms of how WSB is administered. I do know that WSB does not placate Japan Inc.. Neither have I seen the same kind of bias or lies by teh managers of WSB or MotoGP as I have in AMAPR, that is for sure. Maybe as anony implies WSB is biased towards Ducati. That certainly won't work for long, since if/when Japan Inc. withdraws completely their support of the series, it would lose serious credibility. That too would be unfortunate. If there is to be any bias, surely having it in favor of the David versus the Goliath makes some sense, no? Who won the WSB championship two of the last three years? Oh, it was Honda you say? Yeah, WSB sure is biased in favor of the Italians. Ever wonder how Honda got such a huge jump on the competition with the RC211V? I do.
I fail to see though, how pointing out the bias and lies of AMAPR means that I somehow am trying to say that all other racing organizations are squeaky clean. That is a textbook case of false logic at its best (A=false therefore B=true). No, I am focusing my criticism only on the lies and bias of AMAPR. And again, I REFUSE to EVER accept deceit and bias as an acceptable way to run a business let alone an organization that purports to represent the interests of American motorcyclists. I don't care what everyone else is doing, lies and deceit are simply unacceptable, period.
Do I contend that Japan Inc. controls AMAPR as you assert? No. I simply recognize that the leadership of AMAPR is strongly biased towards and obviously placating the marketing strategy of Japan Inc.; that along with their propensity for lies and deceit paints a shady picture. The leadership of AMAPR controls AMAPR.
You and Crusty don't care about a complete lack of integrity in the leadership of an organization purporting to represent American motorcyclists. I do.
You and Crusty are happy as long as AMAPR events are exciting and remain as the premiere motorcycle road racing series in America. I am not. End of discussion?
I'm unable to interpret the announcements by FIM posted on www.radracingworld.com . I cannot tell what they are saying wrt restrictor plates. English is obviously not their first language.
quote:--The AIR RESTRICTOR RULES: in order to maintain a sufficient level of performances, notwithstanding the limitation of the air-intake, the air-restrictor rules requested from the Manufacturers, need much freedom in the engine tuning.
This gives green light to the use of sophisticated technologies which cause high costs to the participants and diminishes the availability of tuned motorcycles in the market.
from RRW
I don't know what to make of that. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 08:07 pm: |
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Grndskpr,
Oh, Gregorio Lavilla is on a privateer Suzuki? I am so sorry to be so appalingly retarded. I'll leave the discussion up to you "experts".
And, no, I didn't "lose" the argument. I certainly have a lot more racing experience and involvement than you or Jose, so I can laugh at your amateur rants. And, the fact is that Jose has made a career out of bashing Buell's racing efforts, and I enjoy bashing back  Have a nice day.  |
Crusty
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 09:22 pm: |
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Blake, I repeat my question: Have YOU done anything positive to correct what you consider unacceptable? Put your money where your mouth is. Or maybe you should go on a Crusade against every business that has acted unethically in your opinion. If you need some place to start, I'm sure Dyna could help point you in one direction. |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 09:27 pm: |
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Oh, Gregorio Lavilla is on a privateer Suzuki? I am so sorry to be so appalingly retarded. I'll leave the discussion up to you "experts".
If G.L. is on a factory backed bike, Corona alstare i belive, than that makes the Ducati cup coments from Blake, well, flat out wrong, and it shows his biased, and misinformation, thanks you, and as they say, Hook, line and sinker, but it was better to hear it from you than me, i have been trying to say something similar for months
I'm unable to interpret the announcements by FIM posted on www.radracingworld.com . I cannot tell what they are saying wrt restrictor plates. English is obviously not their first language.
read the title:
World Superbike Spec Tire Announcement A Surprise To Dunlop, Michelin
I now will go back and read the Ducati article in full, have been a little busy as of late, but will give it a go this evening
Oh an Anon, i have never seen JQ Bash buell in racing(maybe other areas of reliability and avalibilty of parts, like narrow saddle bags, and spyders for S3's) just on how everyone expects to be given breaks out side the rules that are in place currently, maybe instead of hammering JQ you could actually atempt to add something to the discution, however i doubt it, you really have a poor attitude, maybe one day you will learn, but again i doubt it, hey but thanks for pointing out, that Suzuki can not keep p with Ducati, on a factory level with restrictors, guess the AMA might be right afte all, BWAhhhh Bwa hhhhaaaa
Roger |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 01:36 am: |
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John (Crusty),
Other than voicing my opinion and exposing AMAPR's shortcomings to those within my sphere of influence, there is little else I can do to effect positive change at AMAPR. But to answer your glibly stated question... Yes I have made positive attempts to effect change at AMAPR. For one, I've broached the subject here. I've also contributed to the RRW action fund for implementation of airfence and other safety barriers at various motorcycle road racing venues, including AMAPR events.
I'm not about to cease my life plans to undertake a personal crusade against corruption. I happily pay my taxes and leave that to the proper authorities and experts in the field. I will however, aggressively call attention to such corruption as I see it, especially when it involves a group purporting to represent me and my country. AMAPR's actions are not just enethical and wrong in my opinion. There are plenty of others, like Erik Buell, Jeff Nash, Mr. Ulrich of RRW, even John Burns, and Kevin Cameron who have expressed strong misgivings concerning the integrity of the leadership of AMAPR.
Roger,
I think if you reviewed some of JQ's past comments concerning Buell racing from the perspective of someone who is active and committed to promoting Buells in motorcycle racing, you might see where anony is coming from. The only people getting any significant rules brakes that I can see are the Japanese. Funny how Mladin blew away all the WSB Ducatis on his WSB spec GSXR1000 today in qualifying.
BTW, Please explain how the Boxer cup qualifies as a series comprised of "different brands"? 
You got the wrong title from the wrong press release on RRW. Try reading the quote I posted above. It was taken from the article entitled "Unified Superbike Rules Will Stress Cost Containment, Equipment Availability". I posted a link to it at the end of the quote as well.
How many Ducatis in WSB this year? How many in the top 5? |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 08:02 am: |
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I think if you reviewed some of JQ's past comments concerning Buell racing from the perspective of someone who is active and committed to promoting Buells in motorcycle racing, you might see where anony is coming from.
No i can not, actually i can see how he(anon) has done a great job of telling me how short sighted he is, how rude he can be, and how two wrongs now make a right, its going to be fun to watch Buells lose, now, i didnt feel that way before
Funny how Mladin blew away all the WSB Ducatis on his WSB spec GSXR1000 today in qualifying.
Not funny, who is going to know the track better???Especially this year, plus who did testing there this year???Plus M.M is an outstanding rider, again like anon very poor atitude, but an expert, unlike any of us
BTW, Please explain how the Boxer cup qualifies as a series comprised of "different brands"
Obviously there are no different brands in the cup racing, however it is as close as your going to get to what anon wants, is that such a reach now, i mean all you do is complain about biased this and biased that in racing, ama blah blah blah, so the cup seems like it is as close to fair as can be made, everyone on the same level, patriotism, you can root for your team blah blah blah, its about everything anon wants, again it seems your ability to read between the lines has been comprimised
You got the wrong title from the wrong press release on RRW.
opps sorry
Now here is the best part:
How many Ducatis in WSB this year? How many in the top 5?
Does it matter, if so why, you have said in the past that there was no Factory Jap involvment in WSBK, you have called it the Ducati Cup, you said Foggy wasnt doing that well,you have said that restrictors are needed to compete at a factory level, Now Anon comes out and says, suzuki has a factory team, and there getting smoked with the restrictors, hell the foggy is killing them(look up team alstare, its a 2 rider team) Looks like the restrictors need to be lifted in order to promote fair competition, so Blake now points out who is in the top 5, who cares, obviously the GSXR 1000, is to slow to keep up with the Ducati twins, even last year (Tosland), so time to get rid of the restrictors, even the fact that you mention the top 5 shows it, pooor Levilla cant keep up, time to give hme a break, so he can win some races too, cant have it both ways Blake, your going to have to pick one, which is it, the AMA is right, or you wrong About the WSBK???
Sorry
Roger |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 11:57 am: |
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quote:I certainly have a lot more racing experience and involvement than you or Jose, so I can laugh at your amateur rants
Expecting all companies to play by the same homologation and technical rules before they can race is "amateur"?
Is your "experienced and involved" opinion that Buell be allowed to skip the homologation requirements and race with bikes held to a different level of modification than everybody else?
If yes, then be happy in FUSA, because that's exactly what they did for you.
If that approach made so much sense, why doesn't the FIM allow Buells in World Supersport? Why aren't they given breaks to race in the Isle of Man or in World Endurance racing?
Even after the FIM and AMA and BSB combine their rules, they will probably maintain the current homologation requirements.
I don't have a problem with Buells racing, as long as they play by the same rules as everybody else.
Be happy in FUSA, forget about AMA or anything above that until you show up with an orange to race the other oranges, not a tweaked apple like you are trying to do now. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 12:01 pm: |
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quote:Do I contend that Japan Inc. controls AMAPR as you assert? No.
The original title that you put on this thread and the header at the top of this thread clearly gives that impression. Why are you backing away now Blake? |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 05:09 pm: |
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Roger,
Your logic is no more valid than JQ's. I don't know if Lavilla's team is a full factory effort or not. Hodgeson does very well at Laguna; it is one of his favorite tracks. Mladin certainly proved that the restricted WSB spec GSXR1000 is not much off his unrestricted AMA machine. Mladin is not a perenial winner at Laguna. He also proved his restricted GSXR1000 is on par with, even faster than the Ducatis.
On the rules... My opinion is that current WSB rules are better than AMAPR's proposed rules for 2004; I thought I had made that clear. We'll have to wait for the final qualifying results and ultimately the race results to know for sure. Until you lose the attitude, I refuse to continue the debate. AMAPR is run by liars and cheats, end of story.
As to the best rules for the series, I'm all open to any debate on that subject. I think the current AMAPR rule for SB favor the IL4's, but they are a lot more fair than the rules proposed for next year, completely equal rules for twins and fours, and that my friend is what instigated this whole discussion.
Interesting comments on unified rules and spec tires for WSB
Ducati Corse comments
In my view the Japs threw a tantrum by boycotting WSB this year and got called on it. WSB will race with or without them, making the specs more favorable to dealerships and privateers will bring plenty of other brand participation in. The Japan 4 will not be able to stay uninvolved. Their machines will be racing anyway, so to avoid humiliation, they will undoubtedly be drawn into the series whether they like it or not. I could be totally wrong, but as long as the privateers show up to do battle, I think it's a no brainer. I say "Way to go FIM and FGSport!" The bullies of Japan Inc. deserve a serving of humility, just like Ferrari dishes out to their much bigger and richer competition in F1.
When Mladin wins all four SB races this weekend at Laguna there should be no doubt that the current rules are perfectly fair to IL4's, if not overly so. He's never ever won there before yet now he is dominant. Eric Bostrom is still extremely competitive on a 750cc IL4. What do you think would happen if AMAPR follows through as planned and releases the liter fours to the same level of performance modifications at the 750's and liter twins? That was my main point in starting this thread. You can argue all the other BS you want, but that just isn't right, not if you want Ducati and Aprilia to ever have a presence in AMAPR SB. It would be pretty friggin' boring without them. It already is. Sounds to me like all the SB organizations are willing to adopt rules, other than restrictors, to limit the performance of the liter fours. That is fine with me and all I've ever argued for, some fair attempt to achieve parity in performance among the twins and fours.
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Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 05:56 pm: |
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JQ,
I am not backing away from any point I've made here. You apparently do not comprehend the difference between AMAPR being biased and placating Japan Inc, versus Japan Inc, having control over AMAPR. I'll explain it then... The former scenario is one of a mutually beneficial relationship where the corrupt actions of one group are rewarded by another. The latter is a scenario of ultimate authoritative power of one group. Payolla does not constitute control; it constitutes unethical influence. Influence through corruption is not the same as control. You really want to argue semantics? I don't. I simply ask that others not ascribe words to me or meanings to my statements that I in no way intend.
Expecting all companies to play by the same homologation and technical rules before they can race is "amateur"?
Homologation, no. Technical rules, yes. Like I've said many times before, and you so conveniently seem to incessantly dismiss, neither MotoGP, WSB, or the past or current AMA SB technical rules are anywhere near equivalent for each different configuration of machine. Get it through your head that in order to maintain parity among differently configured street based racing machines and even GP machines, different technical rules are required. You know, like FUSA?
Is your "experienced and involved" opinion that Buell be allowed to skip the homologation requirements and race with bikes held to a different level of modification than everybody else?
Homologation, no. Different level of modification, yes. You know, just like all the other racing classes I listed above.
If yes, then be happy in FUSA, because that's exactly what they did for you.
Nope, they didn't do that FOR Buell. They do it for the good of the sport and to get as many brands and different configurations on the track at the same time. The same rules that allow the XB9R to compete in FUSA Sportbike also allow Ducati 1000SS machines to compete as well. Where the hell do you get off telling Buell Racing where they should be happy racing??
If that approach made so much sense, why doesn't the FIM allow Buells in World Supersport? Why aren't they given breaks to race in the Isle of Man or in World Endurance racing?
DUH!!!! The same friggin' reason that AMAPR seeks to hinder Buell's entrance into their support classes. But don't worry, if the Buell market share continues to increase steadily as is looks like it will, sooner or later the rules will change.
Even after the FIM and AMA and BSB combine their rules, they will probably maintain the current homologation requirements.
Yep, so?
I don't have a problem with Buells racing, as long as they play by the same rules as everybody else.
You mean your perception of the rules. As stated before ad infinitum, if allowances are made for twins versus quads in SB and SS, and if allowances are made for triples versus quads and fives, why not make allowances for other differences in engine configurations? There is no good reason.
Be happy in FUSA, forget about AMA or anything above that until you show up with an orange to race the other oranges, not a tweaked apple like you are trying to do now.
And there you have it. The AMAPR racing rules by JQ... All machines shall be configured per the Japanese or not be acceptable to race. F#%k that!
If Buell comes out with an XB12RR, it damn sure ought to be able to race in AMA SS and the rules governing its allowed level of engine modification should be in line with allowing it to compete well against the other bikes in the class. That is what racing technical rules are for. And if the only American Sportbike manufacturer wants to race in a support class within the American Motorcyclist Association Pro Racing's Superbike series, by God the friggin' AMAPR organization better make a place for them or change their friggin name. That is my opinion.
Go Buell! Go FUSA!! GO CMRA!!!
Don't take any of the above personally. We disagree. No big deal. Pretty much hashed to death. Why don't you bring the SV down for the OHR races the last weekend of September. We'll get you on the track with all its brothers and sisters and you can then claim actual race experience. But more than that, it is too much fun. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 12:09 am: |
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http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6692
I think the IL4's are plenty fast already. Friggin Speed TV is not showing both WSB races tomorrow. Hopefully on Tuesday then. |
Crusty
| | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 07:05 am: |
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Speed is showing race 1 live, and race 2 SDD (same day delay) at 10:00 PM EDT (that's 9:00 in Texas)
quote:AMAPR is run by liars and cheats, end of story.
Just like any successful business. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 06:50 pm: |
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Cool, I didn't see the delayed listing.
No successful business I know is run by liars and cheats. Unless you consider the likes of ENRON or Worldcom "successful."
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Smoke
| | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 06:58 am: |
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mladin didn't rout the wsb bunch the first race, and didn't run the second. chili won by attrition the first race and xaus dominated the second. lots of action at laguna. |
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AMA Pro Racing Seeks to Please Japanese Benefactors 
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