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Captain_america
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 01:28 am: | 
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Basically what Court is saying is we F u c k ourselves which is always cool.
Good job us.
I've got the 7 year warranty, we'll see what happens... |
Ohsoslow
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 03:32 am: |
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What time do the guys who work at foreign car manufacturing plants smoke their dope?
its probably hallucinogens not dope |
1324
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 08:34 am: |
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Anyone have pictures of the pitting? If they are posted, I can't see them...
At any rate, is this 'pitting' or porosity? I only ask because I've had NUMEROUS cars over the years with both stock and aftermarket cams...which looked pitted. However, a closer inspection showed that the cast iron had some porosity which was exposed during machining/grinding. There was no wear issue on those engines. In fact, my VFR may have had the same 'issue'. Dunno, it's getting hard to keep track of all the engines I've had apart.
If this is pitting, a used oil analysis should return higher than normal Fe, C, etc. concentrations. Additionally, if the issue is actually galling, brinneling, etc, you should have corresponding 'wear' indications on mating parts. If no elevated Fe levels and/or mating surface wear, I'd estimate you have porosity. Of course, I haven't seen the parts, so take my opinion with a grain of salt...just another internet wacko.
Bottom line: pitting should be fixed...porosity might not be a big deal. The ASTM specs for castings allow for some porosity - nature of the beast. Of course, this assumes Rotax/Buell didn't let some cams through that failed to meet the casting spec. Machined wear surfaces are typically spec'd to be free of visible porosity with radiographic (x-ray) inspection throughout. I cannot say how many surface voids are a problem, but I can say that having SOME has not presented any issues to my engines over the years. I wish I photographed these though...now I just sound crazy, lol.
Dope smokers at lunch, lol. Does this apply to American bikes as well? |
Avc8130
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 08:40 am: |
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Dope smokers at lunch, lol. Does this apply to American bikes as well?
Sure seems like it...
I got a HUGE post from Court in my email inbox...don't see it anywhere in this thread for some reason... |
Avc8130
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 08:48 am: |
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There is a pic of Zac4mac's in this thread:
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/392174.html?1220559738
ac |
1324
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 08:59 am: |
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Yuck - well, if the OP's cam looks like that, I'd hardly call that 'pitting'. Wow! Clearly a material deficiency from the factory/foundry/heat treater. The porosity I've encountered on cams is much less severe than that. WOW, is all I have to say. Carry on... |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 09:41 am: |
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I deleted it. It added nothing.. |
1_mike
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 10:44 am: |
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Mine's about 1/3 the damage of Zac's, (Avc8130's link).
And yea, not porosity..!
As I noted earlier, I looked as close as I could, without taking any more of the bike apart at the time, no lobe surface discoloration, no scratches or gouges, no metal tearing...just missing hard surface.
I think I may have taken pictures of the first time I dug into the valve adjustment. But I do recall..everythig was clean, smooth and shiny.
A #2 cylinder exhaust lobe was a touch off color, but it only had a loose .001" clearance (at just over 4000 miles..!). Looks fine right now.
I received no call back from the dealer yesterday. Will try again today. I'll have to wait till Friday to call Buell service.
Mike |
Fknmagic
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 11:28 am: |
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So Mike.....just to be clear..... You are OK with your damaged cam surfaces (1/3 that of ZMac's) and you don't think that it will ever worsen because mating surfaces were showing no damage?
My 1125 has 26k miles on it. The Dealer's tech assures me that the cams and followers must be replaced or the surface degradation will worsen and eventual engine failure is eminent.
You don't think it's possible that my cams looked like your 4K mile cams 2 years ago and now look like the ones in ZMac's pics or worse??
Also, lest we forget, this is not a fly-by-night manufacturer....its Rotax. They have been making very reliable engines for a long time. What do they think about this issue? One of my close friends is an importer of Rotax engines and parts for off-road motorcycle applications (most are 4-stroke these days) and he said he's never heard of such a thing for a Rotax engine.
Has anyone addressed this? As I asked in my original post..... Has there been any correction to this obvious manufacturing defect from Buell or Rotax?
Anyone???
FKNMagic |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 11:39 am: |
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It's not totally unheard of, that's for sure. I also had the cam surfacing 'pit' and slightly flake off one of my cams on my original 08 motor. |
Fast1075
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 12:56 pm: |
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Musclecargod brought up and interesting question concerning oil...film strenght and impact properties come to mind...as well as the elimination of certain additives such as zinc and phosphorus compounds have been known to contribute to wear involving flat tappet cams in automobile engines.
Another thing I have observed is there is a direct relationship between excessive valve clearance and valvetrain wear. Excessive clearance will result in some degree of increases in impact forces caused by the follower making contact on the cam ramp creating shock forces. |
Avc8130
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 01:04 pm: |
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Fast,
I would have thought if it was an oil problem it would be on more than one lobe. I think we have a non-homogenous material problem that was missed in radiographic inspection.
ac |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 01:10 pm: |
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My M2 had a cam that did that in about 20k miles. |
1_mike
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 01:43 pm: |
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Fkn -
I am "OK" with the lobe damage...?
Absolutely not..!
I was fine with the way the cams looked at the "LAST" adjustment, which was during our Christmas shutdown 2010. I gave the valves a check ahead of time (miles wise) just cause I had the time from work.
The lobes were clean, smooth and shiny, I think I said this before..!
My last check (last Christmas)...while the valves were a little loose (very evenly), I decided to let them go.
And at Christmas...all four cams looked good.
So, my damage came within the last about 8000 miles. This is my daily driver vehicle.
I rotated the engine back up and it will be sitting until I can get a cam and followers to put in.
The note about the pictures is from the "first" adjustment...way back. I'm on my third lash check.
Mike |
Musclecargod
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 01:47 pm: |
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It is odd that only one lobe shows abnormal wear, but only if we assume all lobes are being lubricated equally. Are they? I am not familiar with the oiling passages and layout in this engine.
I think it is safe to say that most "aftermarket" oils have a more complete anti-wear package than syn3 or whatever these come filled with, not trying to start an oil debate here. I run amsoil personally, it will be interesting to see if there is any pitting when I tear things down.
From Zac4Mac's pictures, the cams are cast. I work with cast iron on a daily basis, both heat treated and not. I have seen castings come with porosity, sand, even bolts and nuts. Once I heard of a part chipping a tool repeatedly, they found a broadhead in the casting. Cast can be great, or horrible depending on the supplier. Lets hope these problems were recognized early on and a different supplier was chosen for the replacement parts that it sounds like a number of us will have to purchase. |
Freezerburn840
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 02:10 pm: |
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Zac runs Redline which has one of the highest add packs on the market for zinc and phosphorus and its an ester. |
Fknmagic
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 03:07 pm: |
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To everyone who posted in this thread..... Thank you for the conversation and information.
I have an interesting turn of events to report:
Yesterday I called the HD Help Line to "re-open" my original complaint. Keep in mind that I first reported it to HD while the bike was still under warranty in October 2009. They ultimately refused to even investigate the issue (as I said in a previous post).
The Dealer just called to inform me that HD is going to pay for the camshafts (all), the one rocker that was severely damaged, and the labor associated with the replacements. I will be paying for the remaining rockers (because I just want new ones) and other parts of the 25K service not associated with rotating the engine. My 2008 is 20 and 1/2 months out of warranty....they obviously consider this a major issue.
FKNMagic |
1_mike
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 03:12 pm: |
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Muscle -
The cams have no pressure feed holes.
Splash only.
My bad lobe is -
#1 cyl., intake, right side, evenly around the nose, main damage is on right side of the lobe. Oddly somewhat like Zac's picture, the left side is about perfect. I wondered about that as I was looking at mine. All of the lobes (all 4 cams), look "slightly/tiny/minisule" different, one side to the other..!?
Mike |
Rodrob
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 03:23 pm: |
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I had the pitted cams problem on my VROD. Cams were replaced under warranty. |
Fast1075
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 04:35 pm: |
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Few cams have completely symmetrical lobes...it all depends on the engine design operating rpm and valvetrain design...and how much duration is needed for the application. The more duration needed, the "faster" the required ramp... |
Kenm123t
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 04:43 pm: |
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Lycoming had this problem on theH2D 0360
additives are required to get the tappets and cams to tbo. I ll look it up later |
1_mike
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2011 - 06:48 pm: |
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Cam = $236.10
Followers = 36.02 ea.
308.14 + tax...
Just freaking great.
Another first for my motorcycle ("required")parts resume.
New cam required at 23,000 miles..!
Three more cams to go...
Mike |
Thunderbike
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2011 - 09:01 pm: |
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I did'nt catch which cams had the pits from all of you that have had the problem.Did my buddies service at 12k and it was the front exhaust cam,.both lobes.All other cams and followers,ok.We got a couple of race bikes ridden hard with less miles and no problems with cam pitting during inspections.Warranty covered the repair.And it's also a daily driver. |
Marcodesade
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2011 - 09:23 pm: |
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Some advice for a rookie please: I don't mean to be a hypochondriac, but I have noticed VERY sporadic (maybe once or twice a month)"clacking" as someone called it above. It usually lasts just a minute or two, then goes away. Is this what we're talking about here? Are there any tests a n00b can do to diagnose, short of tearing the engine apart? And, if I take it to Harley (2 years left on extended warranty) are they going to look at me like I'm nuts when I say, "It's making a funny noise, have a look at the cam?" |
Fknmagic
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2011 - 10:31 pm: |
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Mine was the front exhaust cam and follower. However, HD is replacing all. I would encourage anyone with a 2008 to have their's checked. As I've said in a previous post, my bike is 20 plus months out of warranty and they are still paying for the parts and labor.
FKNMagic |
Zac4mac
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2011 - 10:49 pm: |
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Glad I finally clicked the linked thread, it didn't finish...
Warranty covered everything.
Matt at CS called me later and told me "Put it together enough for High Country to come get it and fix it".
I was already working at High Country but thought it odd they didn't say take it to Sun, where I bought Loretta.
I guess they already knew Sun was dropping Buell. oh well.
Crash truck picked her up at my house and I rode her home a week or so later.
<edit> Guess I should add, did the 25k service recently(at 27k now) and all the cams were beautiful.
I believe the problem was early and was solved quickly, I have only heard of a few(4 or 5?) other cam issues.
Loretta was off the line the end of the first week of production, November 2007, #00154.
Z
(Message edited by zac4mac on July 22, 2011) |
Fknmagic
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2011 - 04:21 am: |
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For anyone who is interested.....
I've had my 1125R back from San Diego HD for about 3 weeks now. They did the 25K service and replaced the cams and followers. HD paid 100% for the cams, followers and labor associated with rotating the motor, which greatly reduced the cost of the 25K service.
I must say that SD HD did an amazing job on my bike and at customer service in general. They are the 3rd HD dealership that I have dealt with since I started riding Buells, and they are the only one I would recommend. The other two dealers treated the Buell with near disdain. Almost like.... "how dare you bring that crotch rocket into our motorcycle shop?" None of that at SD HD.
Their attention to detail was unbelievable. For instance, they logged every conversation we had. I mean nearly word-for-word, and included it on the service invoice. Nothing was left out, forgotten or overlooked. And, I cannot possibly give high enough praise to their service technician Casey. What a great young guy! He came out and described in great detail everything he had done. I definitely got the impression that he treated my bike like he treats his own.
The bike runs great!! I'd almost forgotten how its supposed to feel. I'm sure I don't need to tell you guys, but this thing is a blast to ride.
Thank you San Diego HD!! |
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