| Author |
Message |
    
Charlieboy6649
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 02:47 pm: | 
|
That is awesome, I was just commenting on Trojans questions... Wishing you the best this year MR.
I'd like to run the southwest amateur... Need more $$$ and time though... |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 03:32 pm: |
|
That's what I'll be running Chuck... We could split a room to help with costs. Having the same bike may help in some situations as well. |
Mutation_racer
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 05:40 pm: |
|
I'm an amateur, just waiting for them to move me up,I feel bad for some of those guys in my classes once i get my XBRR ,should have it late april early may |
Diablomichael
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 07:59 pm: |
|
Mutation_Racer You are a Amateur? You dont not have to wait for CCS , did you try to get the OK ? |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 08:43 pm: |
|
Matt,
The old FUSA Thunderbike rules include the following provision:
"Production machines not sold by manufacturers and their dealers for street use in North America via normal commercial channels may be approved on an individual basis. FORMULA USA will maintain a list of non-standard approved models and that list will be available at each event from the Race Director/Referee."
So, with respect to those old FUSA rules, I think that may be the answer to your question.
That along with the allowable frame modifications previously mentioned. |
Mutation_racer
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 09:18 pm: |
|
(so with respect to those old FUSA rules,I think that may be the answer to your QUestion)
I talked to CCS/ASRA and they will give the bike a pass And i have the email to prove it .
AND as for moving up in class i'm not pushing them, see you all in daytona march 3 to the 5th
GO BUELL |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 04:56 am: |
|
Thanks Blake. I had forgotten that rule was there. We have the same rule in the UK series, although I very much doubt that the XBR would be allowed in UK Thunderbike. The rule here would be interpreted to read that road bikes not sold in the UK but available to other markets may be allowed to race. For example the Vyrus 984 2V.
These are available to buy individually from the factories, but have no UK dealer network. They are still road bikes that would have to be converted for racing rather than pukka racers, and therefore follow the spirit of the rules.
The introduction of 'limited edition' race only models into the series would in my opinion seriously undermine the whole concept, and would certainly lead to reduced grids in the UK.
We already have 'anything goes' twins racing in Sound of Thunder and I think that would be the place for an XBRR to race in England. Unfortunately it would then be up against the Superbike spec. Ducati, Honda and Aprilia twins etc. But maybe that is where a US$31000 race only 150bhp twin should be racing anyway?
The other thing that I still can't get my head round is this: To qualify for the Thunderbike 1bhp:4lbs power to weight ratio formula the XBRR would either have to be detuned to around 90bhp (less than a mildly tuned stock XB12), or be ballasted to around 600lbs. This would leave it uncompetitive and uneconomical surely?
Don't get me wrong, I really like the XBRR and would be ecstatic if it does well at Daytona and in FX this year. I would just like to know how the factory are going to address eligibility issues regarding power/weight etc, instead of the smoke and mirrors that we seem to have at the moment.
(Message edited by trojan on February 15, 2006) |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 08:40 am: |
|
Matt,
Maybe you could ask before assuming the XBRR will be disqualified from Thunderbike classes. You know, take the more positive approach rather than the negative one? To be frank, I think you may be trying to force a square peg into a round hole and are upset at the peg maker when maybe instead one should be looking for the square hole. Do y'all not have a middleweight superbike class similar to the FIM World Supersport or the AMA's Formula Xtreme? If I wanted to race the XBRR, that is the type of class I'd be looking to contest.
It does seem pretty clear that the XBRR was created first and foremost to compete in AMA Formula Xtreme. Would it be fairly simple to add a restrictor plate to limit peak HP so that it could also compete in HP limited classes? I think so. How does 100 RWHP from 5K thru 8.5K RPM sound? Sounds like a winner to me. 
It's all good. How can having a new racing machine be a bad thing? It's all good.
Maybe your comments though will get the factory thinking about an even more budget-minded factory racer, an "XB12RR" that is a more direct variant of the street bike, say for $20K? |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 08:51 am: |
|
Maybe your comments though will get the factory thinking about an even more budget-minded factory racer, an "XB12RR" that is a more direct variant of the street bike, say for $20K?
Now that would sell over here for Thunderbikes!
I am not trying to be negative about the XBRR Blake, and I apologise for appearing that way. I am just struggling to see where it will fit in anmongst the established classes, particularly outside the US. Our supersport/middleweight classes are very strictly controlled and are limited to 600cc 4 cylinder or 750 twins. The Buell would get no special dispensation. Formula Extreme isn't raced outside the US, which is where the problem lies in my view.
Now if the factory were to produce a budget XB12 racer with 100rwbhp and weighing in at exactly 400lbs, clothed in the XBRR bodywork and with race suspension - I'll be first in the queue, chequbook in hand. Hang on, I've already got one |
Benm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 10:20 am: |
|
Trojan, just from a few discussions with existing racers it seems that you're not alone in your decision to keep the existing machines. The rules already support them, and the work to make them competetive has already been done. The RR seems to fit the AMA mold like a glove, in other spots maybe not so much. For racers who have already sunk nearly the same amount of money into an off-the-shelf XB, what does it offer? Just from looking at the bike, there looks like there are things that existing racers might want as PARTS:
1. The crank (if it fits in the stock cases)
2. The mag front wheel
3. The mag engine cases & alternator
4. The open-loop ECU with the quickshifter input
The rest of the trickery, like the Ohlins suspension, special cases & heads, might put them outside the rules either directly or indirectly (make more power than the class allows). The suspension has most likely already been upgraded not only to better components, but also tuned to the rider. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 02:58 pm: |
|
Interesting. Just noticed the following from the Buell XBRR pamphlet that was distributed at the recent dealer show and Dallas/Fort Worth Texas Buell/BadWeB BBQ dinner...
quote:The ultimate statement of Buell performance, the Buell® XBRR is designed and built with a single goal in mind: to win races. Engineered from the ground up to compete at a higher level, and optimized for the AMA's Formula Xtreme Class, the XBRR is a true racing thoroughbred.
|
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 02:59 pm: |
|
Ben,
Engine cases are aluminum. Covers are magnesium though. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 03:16 pm: |
|
Why would somebody ride an XBRR detuned to make 90 bhp in order to make class limits?
Well, what if it made 90 hp from 2000 RPM through redline? I don't know how creative you are allowed to get with the ECM and still meet class rules... |
Josh_
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 03:30 pm: |
|
>Why would somebody ride an XBRR detuned to make 90 bhp in order to make class limits?
The RR would seem to be an attempt by Buell to make it easier to be competitive at a national level. However, if the only class you would run it in requires significant de-tuning I'm bet you're not their target for the RR.
Now if you plan on hitting several events/classes and think you could easily have $30k invested in your race bike anyway I'd say you're the exact target they're shooting for, and $31k would get you a guaranteed level of performance (and support) and the proven parts needed to switch your bike in and out of classes. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 10:18 pm: |
|
I was referring to the primary case; sorry if I wasn't clear. The little cam cover might have limited value without the corresponding new ignition pickup that the RR uses. I didn't see the actual crank cases as being legal in streetbike based classes, to me they're just too different. I was looking for things that looked like they could (1) bolt to an existing XB motor and (2) not interfere with previous *expensive* engine work.
Without actually figuring it out, Isuspect a contstant-power motor would feel pretty weird in a motorcycle. Wouldn't the torque have to fall off substantially all the way up the rev range? |
Henrik
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 11:12 pm: |
|
My ideal, dream, fantasy ... no, no, I'm not going there - still talking motorcycles ... torque curve would be completely flat throughout the entire RPM range. That would make for ultimate ride-ability and comfort with the available power.
An example of the exact opposite is the earlier superbikes with super peaky power bands and resulting light-switch throttle response = almost impossible to control and modulate.
What you might miss with constant torque would be the rush of "coming on the pipe" or the cam. That's not conducive to feel and balancing on the edge of traction though - and no, I'm not nearly fast enough to really know/exploit the difference
I realize that such a flat power curve is not possible for the entire RPM range, but some motors with carefully picked and tuned components come close to flat within the usable RPM range.
Henrik |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 01:27 am: |
|
Ben,
When did you see the actual crankcases?
Henrik,
Me too. Some over-rev is nice too. |
Charlieboy6649
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 02:17 am: |
|
I'd have to bet that one attractive option the RR brings with regard to riding it de-tuned is that it is supposed to be season long reliable; probably even more so de-tuned. That bullet alone has to have at least a few racers thinking... |
Benm2
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 07:50 am: |
|
I've not seen the RR cases in person. The 4" bore pistons won't fit in a stock case; even the minor bit of aluminum that is between the cylinders on the 3 13/16" overbores looks really thin. The deck looks higher, and the trapdoor is apparently back. While that may be legal for unlimited mods in AMA, or even acceptance in the CCS case-by-case rules, it might not fit within tighter rules for production-based machine racing.
I don't even know if the parts I listed WOULD fit on older XB crankcases. The list was my opinion, based on what I've seen so far.
Buell has indicated that power-detuning stuff would be available. Given the notes about expected reliablity of the new motor, the changes that can be seen and have been described, it looks like the retrofit to existing bikes of the "good stuff" may be the most economical option until the street version of the RR motor arrives. I mean, if you already have a 115hp XB racebike that's class-legal and at or near the HP limits, then what would the RR offer?
Like you pointed out Blake, the RR is an FX machine. It looks to me like it has overdog potential in that class, and really hope to be proven right. |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 10:40 am: |
|
As the crank rides on bigger bearings and the pistons are too big for even an 88 or 90" motor that pretty much scotches all the engine rotating parts and cylinders.Wonder if the heads will retro or if cylinder bolt pattern is moved?
Ben asks" then what would the RR offer? " how about longevity and reliablity at those HP levels,and with the trapdoor back in ease of trans work/swaps/etc.Not to mention the HP potential of those massive throttle bodies that won't fit between the heads on any other Buell,and open loop FI so you can do whatever tweaks are needed.I want one! |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 03:37 pm: |
|
Ben,
Agreed. If it does turn out to be an overdog, expect displacement limit to be reduced for 2007. Fine with me! 
FMJ,
Bolt pattern would have to be enlarged in order to accommodate the larger pistons, no? |
Jens
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 06:59 am: |
|
The Buell XBRR fits in the Daytonaversion full in the German Sound of Thunder Series and is also legal for the Italien Supertwin Series.
These are the interesting classes to seek competition with other interesting bikes and this is the home of the XBRR.
For stocksport and series with less performance needs, the factory have with the normal R models good bikes.
Jens |
|
XBRR Threads Consolidated Here! »
XBRR engine fitment??
