| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
>>>I always change the filter at every oil change, on everything I own, that is me though. I'm the same way. While I perfectly understand the "every other oil change" logic I also am haunted by the "why leave the $5 part where all the crap I seek to get out has likely gone to hide". Again . . . I am proud to say I do something perfectly stupid. | ||
| Fast1075 |
My friends often ask me....Harry, is that bike a POS??? .... you are always working on it... I smile... nope ... I am keeping the POS virus at bay...my friends are always running into problems with their junk....usually caused by lack of maintenance or their inability to observe emerging problems until the problem gets bad. Court...you are on a good program of predictive management...you should be a racer. | ||
| Duchunter |
I'm not at all enthusiastic about using the Syn3 product in my FXR or in my 1125. My FXR, for example, was designed to use a heavy motor oil in the crankcase, a lightweight chain oil in the primary, and a heavy gear oil in the transmission. One "jack of all trades" fluid like Syn3 isn't going to perform all of these functions equally well -- especially when its being compared to a synthetic motor oil in the crankcase and a heavy synthetic gear lube in the transmission. IMO Syn3 introduces some compromises that you don't have to make. Its harder still to consider that one lubricant that's "optimal" for the FXR would also be "optimal" in the Rotax engine, which places a much more demanding requirement on its lubricants. Its pretty hard to imagine that Syn3 could be the optimal lubricant for every application. So I'm less inclined to believe the marketing hype, and I'm looking for hard answers. While we've been discussing oils, I haven't noticed anyone specifically mentioning the JASO MA specification, which is the specification that we should be focusing on. Can anyone tell me if the Syn3 packaging clearly states whether it is JASO MA-compliant? As far as the Mobil 1 products go: I initially had some doubts about the V-twin product because its packaging didn't seem to bear the JASO MA specification. I did a little digging and here's what I found: 1. The red cap Mobil 1 15w50 (for cars) is fine for an isolated engine crankcase (like the Evo-based FXR) but for a common sump application like the 1125 it's a no-go. People like to focus on the fact that it has a good additive package, but seem to overlook that it also has friction modifiers added to it to provide enhanced fuel economy in cars. These make it JASO MA non-compliant and unsuitable for a wet clutch application. Don't put it in your 1125. 2. Mobil 1 Racing 4T 20w50 is the perfect oil for the 1125. Its fully synthetic and JASO MA complaint. The only problem is that it can be hard to find. 3. Mobil 1 V-twin 20w50 looks OK, even though it was "designed for HD motors" and doesn't seem to highlight JASO MA on its packaging. Looking at the Mobil 1 web site, it seems that Mobil 1 doesn't specifically claim JASO MA compliance in the labeling information for it's V-twin product: https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils /Mobil_1_V-Twin_20W-50.aspx This created some doubt in my mind about whether or not the V-twin oil was only suitable for the separate crankcase sump and clutch sump designs (like traditional HD motors), or whether it was also suitable for MC engines that use a common sump (like the Rotax). Knowing that Mobil 1 V-twin 20w50 was "designed for HD motors" isn't particularly confidence inspiring when it comes to choosing an oil for the Rotax motor. Digging a little deeper, the Mobil 1 tech data sheet for the MC oils does mention JASO MA compliance for both the Racing 4T and V-twin products: http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSENP VLMOMobil1_Motorcycle_Oils.asp The fact that the Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w50 doesn't seem to conspicuously bear the JASO MA specification on the front of the package was giving me some serious pause in considering it for my 1125. Now that I know that the tech data sheets claim that it is JASO MA-compliant, I think it might be the the best option for an 1125, insofar as: 1) its easy to find (Wal-Mart), 2) it meets Buell's requirement for a JASO MA-compliant synthetic oil, and 3) its not all that expensive. Comments? | ||
| Whynot |
Good info. From what I can see, Mobil 1 4T is available only in 10-40, so that is leading me to use the V twin 20-50 in my 1125R. The 4T is indeed hard to find, but I did snag 4 qt which I will put in my Guzzi, since it calls for 10-40. | ||
| Duchunter |
When I was on the Mobil site, I did find Mobil 1 4T in the heavier weights that I mentioned previously, I just didn't post the link to the page. Of course, now I can't find the link to the tech data page. Aargh. But I did find the Q&A about using Mobil 1 4T 15W-50 in Triumphs. This is the link that led me to the site via google: https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_ Care/AskMobil/Oil_for_Triumph_Bonneville.aspx If you dig around on the site you'll find that they do make a 4T 15W-50 formulation (exactly what the 1125 owner's manual calls for), but it may be hard to find. | ||
| Yugi |
> Big ••••••• deal . . so are most the $15 cheeseburgers and $25 Harley t-shirts. > What's your point? You can buy much better fully synthetic oil for the same money, or even cheaper, than Harley's overpriced semi-syn, like Mobil1 V-twin, or AMSOil 20w-50. Mobil1 V-twin is sold at Auto Zone and Pep Boys for $9.50 a quart, while Syn3 is $9.95 at Harley dealership. | ||
| Yugi |
> Can anyone tell me if the Syn3 packaging clearly states whether it is JASO MA-compliant? They don't even list any API standard on the bottle. All it says: Genuine HD oil! What a POS! > 1. The red cap Mobil 1 15w50 (for cars) is fine for an isolated engine crankcase (like the Evo-based FXR) but for a common sump application like the 1125 it's a no-go. People like to focus on the fact that it has a good additive package, but seem to overlook that it also has friction modifiers added to it to provide enhanced fuel economy in cars. These make it JASO MA non-compliant and unsuitable for a wet clutch application. Don't put it in your 1125. It's all BS. The main thing is a moly content, which is pretty low in 15w-50 (even lower than Mobil1 V-twin, and people successfully used it in motorcycles with wet clutches/gearboxes sharing the same oil, like some Suzukis/Kawasakis/etc. The only problem with 15w-50 that it shears to 40 weight pretty fast, when used in that bikes. But if the bike calls for 40 weight, it's fine, or if the bike does have separate gearbox/clutch oil, it's also fine. I use that oil in my BMW R-series and in my XBS for many miles with no problems. Look here: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.ph p?ubb=showflat&Number=478131#Post478131 > 2. Mobil 1 Racing 4T 20w50 is the perfect oil for the 1125. Its fully synthetic and JASO MA complaint. The only problem is that it can be hard to find. There no such thing. There is a Racing 4T 10w-40, which is sold in Auto Zone and Pep Boys. > 3. Mobil 1 V-twin 20w50 looks OK, even though it was "designed for HD motors" and doesn't seem to highlight JASO MA on its packaging. I have a bottle in front of me, and it says: API SG, SH/CF, JASO MA. It also says nothing about HD, but says: S&S Cycle recommends the use of Mobil1 V-twin 20W-50 synthetic oil in it's engines. | ||
| Tbenson |
Good info! The article is based off of studies, opinions and experience, as you will see if you read. I have heard good things about Pure Power Products, but I have never used their products myself. http://www.epinions.com/content_5153071236 | ||
| Fmaxwell |
@Milleniumx1: "Mine came with dino style, and I switched to Syn3 at the 620. I immediately noticed that finding neutral became much easier..." Then mine must have come with the greatest oil in the world, because I could even find neutral between 5th and 6th! | ||
| Dirty_john |
I dropped the oil in my 1125R at 200 miles, changed the filter and refilled with syn3, the bike was dealer serviced at 600 miles and the oil and filter are changed every 1000 miles, oil and filters are cheap, an engine rebuild is not. Do you really want all those bits of clutch thrust plates as they wear clogging up the filter and not changing it until the recommended mileage intervals? I don't think so. | ||
| Fmaxwell |
Let's talk some of the bike-specific oil companies. One think that annoyed me about the oil spec for the Helicon 1125 was that 20W50 was recommended for use down to 40F. That's way too close to the temperature I'm willing to ride at -- and if the bike has been sitting all night and the air temperature has just warmed up to 40F, the oil in the bike is colder. The following are all synthetics that look interesting: Bel-Ray EXS Synthetic Superbike Motor Oil 10W-50 Bel-Ray V-Twin Synthetic Motor Oil 10W50 Motorex Power Synt 4T 10W-50 Silkolene Pro 4 Plus 10W-50 (Exceeds JASO-MA2) Silkolene Pro 4 15W-50 (Exceeds JASO-MA2) Repsol Moto 4T Racing Synthetic Oil - 15W50 Repsol Moto 4T V-Twin Oil - 20W50 I excluded the oils that were advertised as being specifically for air-cooled V-twins or for cruisers. I'd love to know what oil a Rotax engineer would run in a Helicon 1125. I'm betting that it would not be Syn3. | ||
| Fmaxwell |
@Dirty_john: "...the oil and filter are changed every 1000 miles, oil and filters are cheap, an engine rebuild is not. Do you really want all those bits of clutch thrust plates as they wear clogging up the filter and not changing it until the recommended mileage intervals?" Yes, I do. An oil filter flows best when it's brand new but it filters best after it has captured some contaminants. | ||
| Swamp2 |
The fact that the Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w50 doesn't seem to conspicuously bear the JASO MA specification on the front of the package was giving me some serious pause in considering it for my 1125. Now that I know that the tech data sheets claim that it is JASO MA-compliant, I think it might be the the best option for an 1125, insofar as: 1) its easy to find (Wal-Mart), 2) it meets Buell's requirement for a JASO MA-compliant synthetic oil, and 3) its not all that expensive. FWIW, the motorcycle oil comparison paper on the AMS Oil site (an educational read if you can put your cynicism about biased reporting aside) ranks the Mobil 1 Vtwin very well, second overall only to it's own 20W-50. I wouldn't have any qualms about using it. I have a friend who's an AMSoil distributor so I can get it a little cheaper than the Mobil 1, but I have to order in advance. | ||
| Fast1075 |
The hard thing about sourcing good oils in the U.S. is what have been done to the additive packages to keep from "damaging" catalyctic converters...even today's "good" oils with the exception of a few have far lower amounts of beneficial ingredients than they used to. At any rate, this is an exciting thread in that it contains genuine discussion and relevent points.... I like to stir it up and keep it exciting...here is a good one. There is a prominent engine builder up north made famous by his unlimited shootout Suzuki engines...guess what oil produced the most HP on the dyno??? (over an extended search for that last fraction of a HP)...it was standard 30wt Quaker State dino oil...don't know how well it wore and that didn't really matter on a hand grenade all out drag motor...but it made the most power. Fact. | ||
| Court |
>>>You can buy much better fully synthetic oil for the same money, or even cheaper, than Harley's overpriced semi-syn, Good . . so I drive around New York City for an hour paying $11 and $8 tolls to save $1.00. Thanks. If you need me . . . I'll be out riding. As entertaining as oil threads are . . I maintain that any decent oil is fine. I'm sure the Syn3 will . . . even at the wildly inflated price that robs me of $5 every 6 months . . . get me by. | ||
| Swamp2 |
I'm sure the Syn3 will . . . even at the wildly inflated price that robs me of $5 every 6 months . . . get me by. Well, given my current state of mind as pertains to HD, $5 of extra profit sent their way is $5 more than I'm interested in giving them... | ||
| Court |
You make a good point. Which Mobil 1 product do you recommend? | ||
| Whynot |
auto barn dot net sells Mobil 1, delivered to your door -- no need to drive around -- free shipping breakpoint, coupons, etc. Looks like V Twin 20-50 is ready to ship, but 4t is N/A. -Kurt | ||
| Reepicheep |
Mobil 1 VTwin is great stuff by any measure, easier to find then Screaming Eagle, and about the same price. | ||
| Court |
So it is spoken . . so shall it be. | ||
| Freezerburn840 |
Motul 5100 synthetic blend 10w50 in the winter 15w50 in the summer. Great on the clutch and tranny. Very smooth shifting. | ||
| Zac4mac |
I haven't seen my clutch plates, but I ran Red Line 10w-40 last Winter, RL 20w-50 in it now. 25.8k Service is coming soon, will put RL 10w-40 in again. Very happy with Red Line and my discount price is less than our retail price for Syn3. Zack | ||
| Yugi |
> If you need me . . . I'll be out riding. As entertaining as oil threads are . . I maintain that any decent oil is fine. > I'm sure the Syn3 will . . . even at the wildly inflated price that robs me of $5 every 6 months . . . get me by. I don't understand you. Why should I run inferior oil in my bike, if I can get better one for the same price? Would you run HD Genuine Donkey Piss Super-Duper Synthetic, which doesn't have any API or JASO spec on it, in your bike, if Harley recommends it and sells at $20 per quart? (Message edited by yugi on November 24, 2009) | ||
| Metalrabbit |
I paid $8.85 a qt for the Amsoil 20/50, and it say's High Zinc Formula right on the label btw. "Donkey Piss", good shot | ||
| Yugi |
> I paid $8.85 a qt for the Amsoil 20/50, and it say's High Zinc Formula right on the label btw. Where did you get it? | ||
| Metalrabbit |
online, they have a network of suppliers and they're usually real close to where you live, so it gets to me really fast.http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/aro.aspx http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/images/aro_qt_300pxh.jpg (Message edited by metalrabbit on November 24, 2009) (Message edited by metalrabbit on November 24, 2009) | ||
| Yugi |
> I'd love to know what oil a Rotax engineer would run in a Helicon 1125. I'm betting that it would not be Syn3. I see that Aprilia recommends 15w-50 semi-synthetic for the Rotax RSV engine. BRP Can-Am recommends BRP 5W-40 synthetic oil for Spyder, which is probably semi-synthetic too. | ||
| Cherry_bomb |
try shell advance vsx4 15W50 got the tipp from the "oil-lady" in the german forum... btw: i just sent brp-rotax a mail and asked them what their engineers recommend to put into their engine... let's see, if i get an answer. (Message edited by cherry_bomb on November 24, 2009) | ||
| Blur |
I've been lurking for a little while but I have to say I don't understand why the Mobil 1 "red cap" 15W50 (for cars) is bad. I'm new to V-twins so maybe I'm missing something but that's all I've ever used in my race bike (Yamaha R6) and I've never had any problems. In fact the tranny shifts so much smoother than the factory oil and the semi-syn I broke it in with I was shocked at the difference it made. As long as the API stamp on the back of the container states that it's NOT energy conserving, it does not have the additives in it that will cause the clutch to slip. (The bottom half of the outer circle of the stamp needs to be blank) If there is something I'm missing please let me know because I'm always up for learning something new but I've always used the Mobil 1 red cap in my jap bike which also runs a wet clutch and I've never had a problem. In a few more oil changes I plan on running the same stuff in the 1125. | ||
| Moosestang |
Well all the API stamped auto oils have reduced the zinc and phos to prolong the life of the catalytic converter. Possibly at the expense of engine life, but the jury is still out on that one. There is much talk about this with flat tappet cam motors. At any rate I think this high strung motor needs all the anti-wear additives it can get so I'm using the mobil 1 v-twin. |
