| Author | Message | ||
     Gonen60 |
i said running from the cops, not trying to run them down.. your right, everyone makes mistakes. And if the cops did wrong, they need to be punished. On the other hand, the criminal justice sytem really needs to crack down, and start handing out some serious sentences on all these boneheads | ||
| Johncr250 |
Dyna, i think you watch too many cop movies. Fact 1: In NYS you are not allow to shoot at a vehicle, even if the vehicle is not stopping or is trying to run you over. Fact 2: You cannot shoot a fleeing felon if they are escaping, even if they are a convicted of murdering 10 people. | ||
| Dyna |
Fact 1: In NYS you are not allow to shoot at a vehicle, even if the vehicle is not stopping or is trying to run you over. Fact 2: You cannot shoot a fleeing felon if they are escaping, even if they are a convicted of murdering 10 people And maybe you simply arent aware that not everyone lives in NY or that some cops simply dont prescribe to those notions. I guess you have never seen an episode of worlds wildest police chases where the cops do shoot at fleeing suspects. I guess you have never heard of the instances here in Milwaukee where speeding unarmed motorists where gunned down. Those are not "cop movies", thats real life & obviously its still happening. | ||
| Seanp |
No, I'm not claiming that it doesn't happen. Cops are humans, I agree 100%. However, cops are given so much training so that when they are put into stressful situations, (high-speed chases, unarmed fights, shoot-outs) they will have their training to fall back on. Hopefully there's no winging it for them, because, if they've been trained well, they will have at least a rudimentary experience in the situation that they face. Bad guys, on the other hand, have not been in these situations, (especially these 18yo's like the kid in the article) and they are winging it, usually with poor results. Hell, I know cops have feelings, I've seen them cry, laugh, get stupid drunk and silly, and have huge shit-eating grins when their kids are born. So yes, they have the same feelings that the rest of us do. But their training is meant to minimize the on-the-fly thinking that can get them killed in a bad situation. It's not meant to minimize their emotions. They still get upset, angry, scared, and pissed off. And I would never claim that cops don't screw up and do stupid things. Hell, like I said, I've seen them do stupid things. I would never claim that anyone hasn't done stupid things, including priests, soldiers, physicians, politicians, whoever. All people do stupid things. It's just that the public expects so much more out of cops than they do out of the average joe. Look at some of the reactions to this article. There are people that think the cops are at fault because they made stupid mistakes. But how many stupid things do you think that kid did? And how many stupid things did his parents do? Obviously not the good housekeeping family of the year there. Hell, not only was this kid avoiding a drug conviction, driving a stolen blazer, and also hiding from a trespassing charge, but there was someone else in the house accused of child molestation. How many stupid things do you think these people have done in their lives? But a cop does something stupid and it lands him on the front page. And everyone says that the cops need to stop doing stupid things. If I were related to the motorcyclists, I hope that I would understand, and that I'd blame the little bastard driving the SUV, not the cops chasing him. Another thing that hasn't been brought up yet is that this whole chase took place at 0100 on a Saturday morning. So it's not like the cops were chasing this guy during rush hour with school buses, baby carriages, and old ladies with walkers around. And I hate to say it, but I wonder what the BAC was of the motorcyclists. Coming from a bar at 0100... What's closing time at the Waggin' Tongue Bar? There are too many sides here to make one single person at wrong. But there are definitely varying levels of wrong. I personally think that the kid in the blazer's level of wrong far outweighs anyone else's level of wrong. So when this is all weighed up, and the big judge in the sky determines the fault, well, he will know every single fact, and will make the best decision possible. So ultimately, it's up to him. Hopefully. | ||
| Johncr250 |
My heart goes out to all the families of the innocent riders. Pursuits are dangerous in cars or on foot. Innocent people have died even in foot pursuits when a criminal pushed them down stairs or in traffic. Last month a Sgt in the NYPD was killing in a foot pursuit when he fell and ruptured an artery. Honest people don`t run from the police. | ||
| Dyna |
And since we are on the subject of "watching movies" & pretending its real life. Explain to me due process & the procedure for reading someones rights to them & the net result of not reading their rights. When I get back from Sears I will relate a true story that happened to me regarding this & see what your feelings are on it. | ||
| Johncr250 |
Hey Dyna while we`re talking about movies, go rent Training Day. Everything that happens in that movie is true also. | ||
| Johncr250 |
No not everyone lives in NY, but the Penal Law and the Criminal Proceedure Law that is used in every state in this county is fairly standard. | ||
| Johncr250 |
Another Fact Dyna: You don`t have to read someone their rights when they are being arrested. You only read a criminal their rights when you are going to interogate them. Its hard to have an educated dicussion with someone who bases their infomation on TV. You need to turn the TV off and pick up a book. | ||
| Seanp |
Yes, that's real life - TV. World's Wildest Police Chases. That's some damn producer combing through days and days and weeks worth of boring crap that goes on all the time during a cop's duty day, looking for three minutes worth of something that will sell advertising time. That's capitalism at its best/worst, depending on if you're on the receiving end or not. How about all those bike stunt videos? That's real life too, for a few people. It's not the norm. And if all bikers had cameras on their bikes, some TV producer could comb through days and days and weeks worth of video footage and look for the one guy hauling ass through the Walmart parking lot on one wheel, or the dude weaving through 70 mph traffic doing 140 mph on the highway. Well, that's great, and it would sell lots of commercial time. But it's not real life. It's the outliers. And if those stunters are caught, well, good, they deserve to be brought to justice for breaking the law. And if these cops are found to be at fault, well, they need to be brought to justice too. But I don't think that we need to start making blanket suppositions about police chases, and that they're all dangerous. Not all police chases are dangerous. The outliers are. So let all of the facts come out, and if the cops are at wrong, they'll be punished. But we weren't in their shoes. We weren't in the shoes of the kid in the SUV. We weren't in the bikers' shoes. So we don't know the real deal, except what was reported in the newspaper. And don't even get me started on the things that are wrong with that whole institution...  | ||
| Impulse_101 |
Has anyone noticed that this guy wasn't wanted on a suspicion of anything. He's already been convicted! He skipped out on sentencing and is a criminal. Has anyone seen the police report yet? Trained professional police officers don't usually shoot at a vehicle in a residential neighborhood unless it is bearing down on them and threatening their life. If he did this, which is the only speculation I've made so far, then he used deadly force against a police officer which is also a felony. (Several actually) I'll never understand how people instantly assume that the police are wrong in every instance while assigning no blame to the party who had the ability to end this at any time, the criminal. JT | ||
| Impulse_101 |
Also, In Wisconsin you must be read you rights while under questioning as the primary focus of the investigation. You don't have to be under arrest, to get then or need them to be read, but it also gives the police some room to claim that a person didn't need their rights read to them because they wern't the only person who was seriously suspected. The results of not being properly advised of your rights is very simple. Anything that you said and anything that was discovered as a result of your statements is inadmissable in court. (This was true as of 1995 or so which was the last time I took this class, but I don't think anything has changed.) JT | ||
| Catabler |
GUILTY! The innocent do not flee. | ||
| Dyna |
In Wisconsin you must be read you rights while under questioning as the primary focus of the investigation. You don't have to be under arrest, to get then or need them to be read, but it also gives the police some room to claim that a person didn't need their rights read to them because they wern't the only person who was seriously suspected. About 10 years ago I was accused of criminal damage to a mobile home. The cops came to my moms house, hauled me out & arrested me. Questioned me both in the house as well as their squad car. I denied any wrong doing & yet was still booked. Went to court for it & the DA started reading off the cops statements as well as my own. The female judge asked me what my defense was & I told her the entire case should be thrown out because I was questioned & booked without my rights ever having been read to me. The judge told me "you dont have any rights in my courtroom". The judicial system is just as crooked as the bad guys now days. And nobody has said this kid was innocent at all. What has been stated is that 3 people died needlessly because theyd ecided to embark on a high speed thrill ride chase. They didnt think this through & figure out that it was near bar closing time & people would be leaving & out on the street in harms way. Maybe those 3 lives dont mean shit to you, but how would you feel if it was your mom/dad/husband/wife/etc that was killed for no reason? Would you feel better because the cops were "just doing their job"? The kid screwed up & the cops are equally to blame because they screwed up as well. | ||
| Dyna |
And I hate to say it, but I wonder what the BAC was of the motorcyclists. Coming from a bar at 0100... What's closing time at the Waggin' Tongue Bar? What the hell does that have to do with it???????? Those folks were mowed down at an intersection while minding their own business. Now its going to be partly their fault because they were out an an establishment that one of the dead guys owned? | ||
| Dyna |
Its hard to have an educated dicussion with someone who bases their infomation on TV. You need to turn the TV off and pick up a book The examples I gave you are not off TV. They are real life examples of what has happened in my community. The law & the way you perceive it or perhaps even practice it are not as cut & dried as you make it out to be. Must be great to be a supercop & know everything about every case that has happened. | ||
| Metalstorm |
More innocent lives are lost from high speed chases than not. The guy running goes way beyond his limitations to escape often resulting in a crash which at least 50% of the time gets innocent people killed. (wrong place, wrong time.) Most of the sheriffs I know won't give chase past a certain speed (ain't saying what that speed is, sorry) to avoid this kind of thing. besides, they say they have something that's faster than anything anyone could ever drive or ride. They call it "radio". Then there's the CHP. I don't know any of them but they seem to have a different "f!@k all" kind of attitude. They don't seem to back off untill someone dies but somehow it's never their fault. Hmmm... must be the training. | ||
| Impulse_101 |
First, people die from sins of omission and sins of commission. It's a fact of life in the cold cruel world. The police know that a cruiser can be a deadly weapon. They also know that a man who has already jumped sentencing, stolen a vehicle from his neighbor and is leading them on a high speed chase may be more dangerous later instead of sooner. No one sitting at a computer reading incomplete accounts of the incident can make the decision of which is better for the police at the time. You can only judge the consiquences. This time the consiquences were horrific, but how often does this happen? Should every police chase be called off everytime? I think that a chase on the less crowded streets of 1am is a far better gamble than if it was noon or three O'Clock. And So you had a bad experience with the cops and the courts once so every cop and every court is bad? Were you convicted of the crime? This was criminal damage so you probably wern't being charged with a felony. The rules change for lesser crimes. And, the Miranda rule doesn't effect everything in the criminal justice system. It doesn't matter what they did if they didn't use your statement or there was not culpatory evidence in your statement. Your whole case will not be thrown out because of a miranda violation. Only the statement and evidence found as a result of it will be tossed. Judging by your statements and the way you argue around here I'm willing to bet that you didn't do anything to endear yourself to the judge or the officers either. If you went into the court acting like a "know-it-all" and pissed off the judge with irrelevent interuptions instead of denying the charge on the merits of the case, then don't be suprised if she shuts you down. If you had a lawyer and that lawyer let you say that you should get your money back. If you didn't have a lawyer you should have, you know the old saying. JT | ||
| Dyna |
So you had a bad experience with the cops and the courts once so every cop and every court is bad? And where did I ever state all cops & all courts were bad??????? Several times here I have said their are good cops but there are also plenty of bad ones. My little case was just a crummy misdemeanor & I sure as hell wasnt going to sweat it out & bother with a lawyer. The lawyer would have cost me more than the entire damages were...less than $300. And just because someone is a cop or lawyer or involved in the law anywhere does not make them automatically worthy of respect or smarter than anyone else. Plenty of crooked judges have been caught on the take as have cops. I have friends that work for the local police, the sheriffs dept as well as 1 state patrol officer. My son in laws mother works as a jailer & my Step dad was an ex chicago police officer. Went to a wedding where it was nothing but cops & judges & the shit you hear is unbelievable. I know exactly how the system works as do most of us here, but that doesnt excuse the fact that 3 innocent people are dead because the cops got over zealous for a lousy warrant on a kid who didnt go to sentencing for a minor drug offense. There is nothing that kid or those cops could do that warrants the tragic outcome. | ||
| Impulse_101 |
The judicial system is just as crooked as the bad guys now days. Pretty close to it. | ||
| Impulse_101 |
Nothing excuses the kid either and far more blame should be on him. It was his string of poor decisions that caused the tragedy. The Police may or may not be blameless. Chases are dangerous, but so is having a blanket policy to not chase. Regardless, nothing is bringing those people back and I'm sure that the police officers are going to spend as much time grieving for them as the moron they were chasing. JT | ||
| Doughnut |
Where in the article did it give fault to the police? Sounds like blaming the police is a gut response. If the officers did do something wrong, I would expect the article to be all over it. The chase could very easily have been avoided. The subject did not have to run. Why did he run? I bet it was not because he was a good, law abiding fella. The article said that the wife said that the husband said that he heard at least two gun shots. Are we sure that they were gun shots, and not the kid hitting something as he fled? My point I guess is that so far, there has been no reported wrong doing on the officers part. Many people though are already pointing the finger at them as though there was. | ||
| Dyna |
Dough, & that works both ways. Folks have already been condemming this kid as a major drug cartel, child molesting, potential cop killer. High speed pursuits cause as many issues as they may possibly solve. There has to be a better way & unless the public lets the police force know that we will not tolerate anymore needless deaths, they will continue to do business the old way. We pay their salary thru our taxes & yet we are the ones who could easily have been those 3 dead folks. Its ridiculous that innocent people are being killed in the line of police pursuits yet our government rejoices because public enemy #1 is behind bars...FREE MARTHA!!! | ||
| Doughnut |
The public has to be willing to get involved then. If the public wants less police chases, then the public should help make that possible. His family could have turned him in, then the chase would never have happened. Just as I expect our police to protect me and others, Our police should be able to depend on my support in what they do. | ||
| Darthane |
God, Dyna, freeing Martha would be cruel and unusual punishment to the rest of mankind. Human rights activists would be crawling all over your ass for that one. | ||
| Johncr250 |
I`m sorry i opened my big mouth on this thead. What happened was a terrible thing and we should all pray for their families. | ||
| Dyna |
What happened was a terrible thing and we should all pray for their families. And just exactly what would you hope to accomplish by praying for them? They are dead, the time to help them was when they were alive. How about eliminating high speed puruits in favor of other methods. Perhaps all cars should be equipped with a system similar to GM's Onstar. Kinda hard to run when they know right where your vehicle is. Guy takes off, cops have the license number & call Onstar, they remotely disable the vehicle & the high speed chase is over. There are alternatives, we just have to be willing to pursue them. I mean for christ sake we found Saddam hiding in a hole in Iraq & yet we think we have to engage this kid in a high speed pursuit or we will never catch him? | ||
| Impulse_101 |
You've got to be f*cking kidding me. You want to give the government the ability to track your every move but your afraid of letting the cops chase a criminal? JT | ||
| Johncr250 |
Dyna, can i make a suggestion? Start by switching to decaffinated coffee. Then maybe try some yoga or writing poetry. | ||
| Dyna |
You want to give the government the ability to track your every move Newsflash for you, they already either have the capability or are moving in that direction anyways. Any GM car with Onstar could be utilized for this. Im not even suggesting any new alternatives....this is existing technology that the owners paid extra for. And I am not afraid of letting the cops chase a criminal, but I am afraid of unintended consequences such as what has happened time & time again due to bystanders being hurt or killed during these pursuits. And I dont drink coffee..cant stand the stuff. |
