| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Al, I feel like I'm back working in engineering again working with a talented design engineer.   Have you checked out the beefier crack/fatigue resistant T-Bolt clamps? They are far superior to the standard versions. The raised edges are genius in that they eliminate any high tensile stresses from the edges with the effect that cracks never get a chance to start. They are a bit more expensive. Buy them from McMaster-Car  Click pic for more info | ||
| Loki |
Al, count me in no mater which way it goes. Now I got to see what your front mount looks like. That was where I was needing some work on the other pipe. The clamp was wearing into the pipe itself. Let me know, thank you and over and under and out..... | ||
| Holligandave |
Hey Brad, If I don't sell the X1 to this guy tonight, I'm in for a rear mount. Nice work AL....sent this to a friend of mine who is a engineer, thinks it should solve the problem. Dave | ||
| Al_lighton |
Several interested in the rear bracket, if a couple more say yes, I'll get 10 more made with some at risk on my buck to get the price down to $37 for everyone. Blake, I'm not profiting, so if I make a few extra, can I leave them for sale here in the muffler section until I'm in the black again? About the the front mount: I long ago replaced my dual front race hanger with a modified version of the race kit hanger fabricated from the broken pieces of the original. A single hanger permits the degree of freedom necessary to NOT have it hanging in a stresed condition. The stock race kit dual hangers pretty much guarantee hanging in a pre stressed condition. .  That one uses the hanger stock .101" thickness (as it's made from the broken pieces) and has been on my bike for about 10K miles without incident. Here is the design of the new front mount. This one doesn't need a special clamp, any t-bolt clamp will do. It can't slip off, and the cantelever bending on the shoe is moderately alleviated (though the stress path is a bit twisted). Everything is 1/8" thick stainless, and all corners welded The welds aren't shown in the model..Solid modelers tend to freak out on making welds for surfaces that aren't flush.  The problem is it's too expensive, about $50 in the same quantities that the rear brackets were about half that. I think the culprits are: 1) three parts 2) curved shoe 3) lots more welding I'm thinking I might be able to pull 15% out of it by abandoning the curves and use the same V profile for the shoe that is in the rear clamp. But that's not enough. Thinner material only pulled a buck out,so that's not the cost driver. I haven't tried another source, might be able to get it cheaper. But in these quantities, it's not easy to get cheap. This part shouldn't be substantially more expensive than the stock one in quantities, but I don't have quantities. So I'm not sure what to do yet for the front bracket. Al | ||
| Seeeu911 |
Good work Al, I would say leave the curve in the shoe. The factory shoe is $45.00 I would bet most of us here will pay the extra for a superior design. Al, if you increase quantity I would be in for 2 front and 2 rear. Since, Al mentioned it my plan last year after going through the broken pipe/bracket/clamp pain R&D for my bike was to build repro race headers with a Race Boss pipe, Brackets By Al, and sell the complete kit for a few $$ over cost. I had another Race Boss made, a local shop made 2 replica race headers and Al, completed brackets. The plan was to lay in stock of 20 units then ship out. A layoff at Qwest, then while taking care of my dad in cancer treatments my mom fell and broke her hip, so I spent 4 months in the caribbean at home. They are much better now, and its back to playing with Buell. After I get a clamp set up from AL and mount the complete unit and test on a local bike I will be producing a complete unit for the tubers. No firm date but I'll post here with progress updates. edited by seeeu911 on June 12, 2003 | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Donn, Al, You guys just friggin ROCK!!!!!  I'll bet we could get our count up by popping a note onto Sac and ATC. I would do it, but it may be better coming from one of you guys. Brad | ||
| Blake |
Al, Suggest putting another slot for a 2nd T-Bolt clamp directly underneath the bolt hole/slot. Gusset only one side nearest front strap as possible. The significant heal and toe stress issue will thusly be addressed. And again, I like the beefy version T-bolt clamp that I referenced previously. I mention it, because it is a little wider and may require a slightly larger slot. Cost savings possibilities?... Look into cutting the curved base section of the shoe from appropriately sized standard SS pipe?... Or start with a standard T-section?... Or... eliminate the welding entirely?... ![:]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) | ||
| Blake |
As long as it's not for profit, it's all good. That's what this site is all about... positive contributions by Buell enthusiasts for Buell enthusiasts. | ||
| Al_lighton |
You may have something there Blake, I'll have to play with the fits. The reason I (and the Buell bracket, I suppose) have the strap mounting point where I do has to do with the collector shape. At the location the slot is currently shown at, the collector is mostly round and not as rapidly tapering. At the front directly underneath the hanger bolt, the collector is just mating to the two header tubes, and it's significantly conical and oval. So the strap sits at a funny angle and looks like it would be clamping the weld at the header/collector joint a little cockeyed....I think I may have a picture of it somewhere, I'll look when I'm on my other compooter. Maybe two straps/slots is still the answer, but move both back a little so that they engage the collector reasonably. Not optimal load path to have them further back and not directly under the hanger, but at least the two two straps would have clean collector engagement, and can react the cantelever load better than one strap can. I might be able to get it real close to underneath the hanger bolt if the front strap was smaller than the rear. The front light duty strap would be merely to stabilize, and one heavy duty in the rear, to take the majority of the load. I'm thinking that won't work because it would be pretty easy to align it or tighten/preload the straps so that the front light duty strap would take the load, break, and only then transfer the heavy load to the rear main strap. Oh, and I was thinkin... the V shape is actually superior than the curve for the shoe design, BECAUSE of that taper in the collector header. If it was a constant diameter cylinder, you'd select the right OD for the mating shoe. But with a conical collector, unless you mate to that cone with another cone, you'll only be perfectly fit in one place. At the front, it would be contact only on the centerline. With a V, it will contact the cone along two converging lines the entire way, which will stabilize it laterally. The sides of the v can be parallel to the converging contact lines for less strap bending at the shoe edge, and for a racier look. I'll play with the model, but the front strap design change and build will have to wait a little while while I finish a fraternity reunion CD project. In the meantime, I'm gonna get 10 of the rear hangers built and order the straps in quantity to support 15 clamps with at least 3.5 straps per clamp, maybe 4. Anyone buys them from here will get them at my cost + shipping, if I get stuck with em too long I'll move them on ebay or somethin. Al | ||
| Al_lighton |
Oh, I guess it should go without saying, but...I'm not a company building these things, its just hobby stuff. Anyone using one of these assumes all risk. Maybe they're dismal failures. Maybe they will break. Maybe your muffler will fly off and injure you. I don't think so, the first prototype has done well on my bike. But you make your own determiniation of it's worthiness and act accordingly. I can't replace broken ones should that happen. Sorry to have to write that... | ||
| Loki |
Al, you can still count me for a mount and two straps. When the time comes I will email you a good temp shipping address for me. My life is getting very fluid again. Hoping the drain points me towards florida. | ||
| Blake |
Al, As usual you are on top of the design constraints. I've been using the factory race hanger/shoe with the beefier clamp. It's the only point in the exhaust tract support system that hasn't needed help. That beefier clamp/bolt allows significantly more clamping preload. I cannot praise it enough. And the price is reasonable, only $6.04 ea for qty 1-5, or $4.83 ea for 6 or more... www.mcmaster.com Part Number 5443K29 Type 430 SS Band Heavy Duty T-Bolt Clamp, Width = 63/64" with raised edges that prevent cracking or tearing failure Thickness = 1/32" Bolt = Zinc Plated Steel Torque = 166 IN-LBs (14 FT-LBs) Socket = 1/2" or 13mm hex nut driver Diameter Range = 2-11/16" To 2-7/8" (68-73 mm) Price Qty 1-5 = $6.04 ea Price Qty 6 + = $4.83 ea | ||
| Ara |
Blake, that thing is compatible with the SS factory exhaust can? | ||
| Blake |
I use one at the front muffler mount on a race header with the factory shoe. | ||
| Al_lighton |
I've ordered 10 more rear brackets and 50 clamps. The clamps are likely the lead time driver on this, I'll have 'em in about 4 weeks. So, there are more than I have orders for, and the costs are: $35 per bracket $7 per clamp (bracket needs 2) At this point, I've reserved the following. Send no money now, just ping me at my email address if what I have written here is wrong for you. If any others want one, send me mail (alighton@adelphia.net): Me: 1 bracket, 6 clamps $77 Donn: 2 brackets, 6 clamps, $112 Loki: 1 bracket, 2 clamps (sure you don't want a spare? I'd recommend it since you can't easily buy them at the HW store) $49 Brad: (BluzM2) 1 bracket, 4 clamps $63 S2Carl: 1 Bracket, 3(?) clamps $56 MikeE: (Brads friend) 1 Bracket, 3(?) clamps $56 Josh: Not clear, please clarify if you're still interested, I don't think it will work with a Buell race can per our email conversation. Henrik: 1 Bracket, 3(?) clamps $56 So, of the 15 I've made, 8, maybe 9, are spoken for, and 27 of the 50 clamps. Any others? If you're reading this and don't know what I'm talking about, see http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/3842/26366.html?1054078743 and http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/3842/30623.html?1055193385 Al | ||
| Loki |
Al, with the going prices bump it up to three clamps. Loki(Bry) | ||
| Al_lighton |
For everyone listed above, please send your shipping address to the mail above so that I know where to send it to. Oh yea, the shipping will be a few bucks, I'll figure it out when I get the zips. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Al, What's the status of the new hangers? I might need another one, I now am the proud owner of a 95 S2! It's got the Supertrapp on it but I'm not sure I like it. Brad | ||
| Mikej |
Brad, If you're going to dump the Supertrap let me know. | ||
| Al_lighton |
Hanger status: Sorry for the lack of info, I was out of town for a few weeks at Laguna Seca and SPLASH. The clamps came in from Clampco while I was gone. Unfortunately, the CAD files for the bracket at the fabricator were lost, and I couldn't get him replacement files til I got back from vacation. He's got them now, and should be building the parts now. I'll send him some mail now to see when he anticipates them being ready. However, I do have the original 5 and the clamps here now, so I could ship those off to anyone that has a pressing need for them now. Let me know. If you haven't sent me your shipping address to my email address (per a post a few above), please do. If my quantities as listed aren't correct, inform me of that too. And I do have a few more brackets than have been spoken for, so by all means buy one if you think you need one, I really don't want to eat the cost of the extras for getting the quantity price break! Congrats on the S2, Brad! | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Al, Depending on the build time lag, I may need one of the 5 original's. I've decided I'm bringing the M2 to Bonneville. I want to use the Boss pipe instead of the Supertrapp. As long as I have it installed before I leave, I'm good. BTW, How do you want the $$$? Brad Brad | ||
| Al_lighton |
Brad, you got it, I'll get it off to you soon. Have you sent me a mail with your address and such? I glanced at my mailbox and didn't see it, but if you did, it's there. Paypal to alighton (from a linked bank account, but not from a credit card) is best choice, a persnal check is fine too. Send to: Alan Lighton 3443 Circulo Adorno Carlsbad, CA 92009 | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Al, Thanks! I'll have to send a check, my Paypal is linked to a credit card. I'll get it in the mail tomorrow. Address to follow in your profile email. Brad | ||
| Bigfanof6 |
Gentlemen, while doing my annual Blue Ridge Parkway trip last week, the rear mount on my Boss broke. Unfortunately I was 400 miles from home and I had to ride home with it like that. Hoping it didn't fall off, break the front mount, pull the studs out of the heads, etc. but I made it home okay. I thought I would check with the Badwebbers as to a fix for my problem, and you can imagine my surprise when I found this discussion. I need one of these beautiful brackets for my M2!!!! I can weld my old clamp for now, but I really want one of these "Alan" brackets when they become available. Would you please let me know what I need to do to get one? Thank you. Chris  | ||
| Al_lighton |
Chris, I expect them to come in the middle of the week. I *think* 11 of the 15 I have are spoken for, so just send me an email with your shipping address and how many clamps you want (you need two, but should get at least three). I need to confirm if the fab guy built 8 or 10 of them, and confirm that I've accounted for all that have asked for one (info is at home, not here at work). Chances are good there's one for you. Al | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Al, Did the check show up? Even with the snail mail, it should have made it there by now. Brad | ||
| Al_lighton |
Came today, Brad. Will get it off as soon as possible. Al | ||
| Loki |
Al, I just need a total from you. Bry | ||
| Al_lighton |
Brackets/clamps: The shop building them had a small delay (punch went down, so he's just machining them...cleaner edges!) He's now telling me he's hopeful for a Friday delivery...but if he's just doing the machining now, I'd bet the welding will make it early next week when I get them. Here's what I've got, orderwise, I think they're all sold. Brad, wasn't sure about that last one for your friend, so please confirm there. Shipping: Lets do it easy. I'll probably have to buy a few cartons to send all of them, will use USPS because it's easiest for me to get to, should be about $6.00. Let's just call it that. Maybe I'll make a buck off one of ya, maybe I'll lose a buck. whatever. $35 per bracket $7 per clamp (bracket needs 2) Postage: $6 Me: 1 bracket, 6 clamps $77 (cheap postage ">">">">"> ) Brad: 1 bracket, 4 clamps (mailed today) Aaron: 2 brackets, 6 clamps (mailed today, don't worry about the postage, I owed ya big for the article hospitality anyway) Donn: 2 brackets, 6 clamps, $112+$6=$118 (we'll talk, since you sent me shirts) Loki: 1 bracket, 3 clamps $56 + $6= $62 S2Carl: 1 Bracket, 3 clamps $56 + $6= $62 Henrik: 1 Bracket, 3 clamps $56 + $6= $62 H. Falconer: 1 Bracket, 3 clamps $56 + $6= $62 Jose Martinez: 1 bracket, 3 clamps $56 + $6= $62 Josh Andrews: 1 bracket, 4 clamps $63+ $6= $69 Chris Malcolm:1 bracket, 3 clamps $56 + $6= $62 Neil Schwartz:1 Bracket, 3 clamps $56 + $6= $62 MikeE: (Brads friend) 1 Bracket, 3 clamps $56 + $6= $62 There's 2 more of the original 5 built, the other 10 will be shipped next week. Chris, your bike is down, right? You need one of those first 5 expedited to you? I can switch to priority postage for a couple bucks more if you want. Anyone else desperately need one of those first 5 sooner than the others? You can paypal me (alighton @ adelphia.net), but your paypal can't be linked to a credit card, must be to a bank account. OR you can send me a personal check to: Alan Lighton 3443 Circulo Adorno Carlsbad, CA 92009 I hope they work out for everyone. My original unbraced version is still holding strong, and has now been thru a couple removal/replacement cycles. These braced ones should be about indestructible, but Buells never fail to surprise me on what they can shake to pieces ">">">">"> A few notes about installation: 1) NO muffler mount short of a machined block is going to stay intact if you bolt it together in a pre-stressed condition. Its the nature of Buell paintshak..., er, motorcycles. The unwebbed prototype is mounted on my 98S1W with a race header, with a custom Stainless Specialties muffler centered between the two hanging points on the swingarm carrier block. The "V" of the bracket will self center it there. If your muffler is not centered there, something may be wrong in the header location or front mount or something. Fix that before proceeding, or yours may break. If you don't have the "Y" yoke front mount that Buell retrofitted the "L" brackets with, I highly recommend getting it. If you have a race header shoe front mount, be aware that the dual hangar arms can sometimes overconstrain the system and force the muffler into a bad position. Leave things all loose/partialy tightened while you get everything aligned. 2) I highly recommend that before you mount it up, take a file and break the edges in the cutouts that the straps run thru. The edges on the 5 prototypes were pretty sharp, and the clamp strap will be much happier if you round that edge a little bit. A few minutes with a file and you'll be fine. 3) Don't overtorque the straps. I can't tell you what the right torque is, but use common sense. You are using a bolt to pull on a thin stainless strap, with welded loop ends. I have no doubt that you could rip the strap apart before you'd break the T-bolt. You don't need a lot of clamping from the strap to hold things in the right position. 4) If the muffler you are using is mated to a race header, there is nothing other than the front and rear clamping force to keep the muffler from moving backwards. I highly recommend the old supertrapp trick: get it all mounted up, and drill a small hole thru the header and muffler where they meet, in the region of the header/muffler clamp. Put a small flat head rivet in that hole, then put the front clamp over that to prevent the rivet from coming out. That little rivet pin may be the only thing that keeps you from running over your muffler on some twisty road far away from home. I'd also use two front clamps. Call me paranoid. But don't depend on just the clamping forces to prevent that can from moving backwards..you'll probably end up overtightening the clamps to prevent that, and then the clamps will break, and then your muffler won't be all shiny anymore when you run over it. 5) The brackets/clamps you'll receive are not polished, but are stainless steel. They polish up nicely with a little bit of sandpaper, scotchbright, elbow grease and a buffing wheel. 6) IF the width of the bracket hanger arms aren't exactly the same as the width between the rubber mounts in the swingarm carrier block, shim it with washers, don't just tighten it all up and splay the hanger arms. That will subject the welds on the web to tensile stresses that aren't necessary. Pay attention to which side the washers are on. If the muffler wants to be centered a little bit towards the shock side of the bike, put the washers on the kickstand side of the bracket, and vice versa. It will only make a little difference, but everything you can do to remove pre-stresses in the mounting is a good thing. If you have any questions when you go to mount it up, just ping me here or on my email. Al edited by al_lighton on August 13, 2003 edited by al_lighton on August 14, 2003 | ||
| Josh_ |
Al I'll take the extra clamp. Let me know if you wind up with an extra hanger. $69? |
