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Richardcronrath
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 08:44 pm: | 
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Do you think the fans would like to see 4 Buells compete in the Daytona 200 and possibly not finish in the top 10 or finish at all? and then not compete at all the rounds for the rest of the season. Or 1 team that has all the resources and is very established in the racing community along with a top notch rider race the whole season and most likely finish in the top ten all year? |
Dana P.
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 08:48 pm: |
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Why are you wondering this Richard?? |
Richardcronrath
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 08:54 pm: |
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Just curious? |
Glitch
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 08:59 pm: |
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Well, since neither are an option, I'll simply take what I can get.
In which one of your scenarios do you see yourself liking? Why? |
Stealthxb
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 10:02 pm: |
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quality not quantity |
Shazam
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 10:11 pm: |
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Four buells finishing in the top four all year please....and um.... Yeah I'll have the pumkin pie for dessert. |
Crusty
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 10:17 pm: |
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Actually, what I'd like to see is for all the Buells entered in the 200 to finish the race with at least one on the box; and for at least one team with a top notch rider compete throughout the series with decent finishes.
In my own fantasy world, I'd like to see something like Dick O'Brien's 1968 KR mounted wrecking crew put it to all the "more advanced" race bikes. To be honest, I really don't think that will happen, but it is a nice dream. |
Richardcronrath
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 10:45 pm: |
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I'm doing my best to keep a realistic approach to further see the success of Buell in Road Racing. Because of poor decisions made earlier this week, from people other then my race team and sponsors, I will not be competing at Daytona. I'm not about putting all my eggs in one basket, and putting the bike on the podium at a few races is more realistic then just one event and then nothing. After 6 years I think I have lost interest!!!! |
Dana P.
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 10:56 pm: |
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What poor decisions are you referring to?? Inquiring minds want to know?? |
Mutation_racer
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:04 pm: |
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rich i'm not sure what your gettin at. Do you think buell should have given you a bike knowing that you have one thats up to snuff, is that what you mean when you said, because of poor decisions made earlier this week, from people other then your sponsors? |
Richardcronrath
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:18 pm: |
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Well, I was really looking for an opinion from fans. As for what decisions were made, I really can't get into that at this time. As for Buell they don't owe me anything. I don't need a XBRR to be competitive in Formula Xtreme. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:24 pm: |
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I think a sustained drive over the duration of the season is better than a "flash in the pan" all or nothing approach.
Kind of a philosophical question.
Sorry to hear that you are having complications Rich. This is supposed to be fun. |
Shazam
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:44 pm: |
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Buell wants (needs?) a title fight.
formula extreme isn't "the world stage" throughout the season.
don't be so hard on yourself or Buell, a good showing under the lights, will do Buell and yourself a inconceivable world of good in the long run. |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 03:27 am: |
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Formula Xtreme is an oddball race. The only reason it gets attention is because of the Daytona 200. It doesn't even run at some venues like Laguna Seca.
It is a support class, that for some odd reason, Honda decided to pour a lot of money into, instead of the Supersport class last year. They probably made a secret deal with Yamaha saying - "You take the Supersport races, and we'll take the FX races".
With 70 bikes in the Daytona 200, I don't think Buells will break into the top 10, but they do have a chance on the tighter tracks in the rest of the season. Too bad Laguna is not on the schedule.
Should do OK at Barber, Infineon, Road Atlanta, Road America and Miller Motorsports Park. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 05:20 am: |
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I don't need a XBRR to be competitive in Formula Xtreme.
Give that man a cigar.
The XBRR is nothing more than wind and puff. In a serious class Buell would have to build a real race bike, like say Petronas did, or Kenny Roberts does, or WCM does.
Building a racing bike around an air cooled pushrod V twin, no matter how good it is, it is not going to get you in the big league, and it's always going to be an underdog against a multi cylinder all singing and dancing power plant.
So what is the real purpose of the XBRR? I'd say it has more to do with market forces than racing motorcycles. One is a long term effort, a platform if you will. The other is a whim that will be continued by outside influences once the dust has settled. You decide which is which.
Rocket |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 05:52 am: |
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Marketing, for darn sure, is involved. The first thing any race bike must do (don't fool yourself) is advance the company. Stories of folks who have failed to realize this and properly craft their strategy are legend.
The XBRR is not an underdog. But, alas, banter prodcues nothing and the race is but a mere 45 days away. The proof, dear friends, will be at the track....as will I.
>>>Do you think the fans would like to see 4 Buells compete in the Daytona 200 and possibly not finish in the top 10 or finish at all?
That's not likely to occur. Development of the bike was arduous and took a lot of talent. So too was the developemnt of the program which has been ongoing for sometime. There have been some "planned" things and some "fell in the lap" events, and not everyone is going to be thrilled. There will be, I'd guess, a meting out of available hardware and I've already been contacted by one team, wanting to make sure they are armed by Daytona.
Fact is, the XBRR is going, at the very least, to be a SPECTACLE of the nth degree. That figures big at Daytona where an exposed.
I, personally, see the XBRR as holding the power to Daytona to a legendary motorcycle race, from a cole slaw bikini wrestling (not entirely a bad thing) contest.
Time, with minimal delay, will tell.
See ya there. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 05:57 am: |
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I applaud Buell for building a pure race bike, Unfortunately though I think that they may have suffered from (wind) tunnel vison, taken the wrong path and have gone down a blind alley.
This bike has been designed and built purely to compete in the US Formula Extreme series, which has some of the weirdest eligibility rules out there and which Buell are obviously going to take full advantage of. Air cooled twins are allowed almost 1400cc to compete against 4 cylinder 600's (albeit highly modified 600's).
The innovation that has gone into the XBRR is amazing to us as Buell enthusiasts, but hardly relevant to the rest of the bike world. Air cooled push rod twins are not where it is at worldwide.
Buell lobbied the AMA very heavily after the Pro Thunder class was dropped, and persuaded the organisers to allow almost unlimited modifications on air cooled twins for FX. The AMA probably thought that Buell would just make up the numbers and humoured them, but just wait for the uproar and complaints from HRC & Yamaha if Buell take the first 3 places at Daytona. The AMA, like BSB and all the other national organisers, won't take a stand with the minnows and upset the Big 4 after all.
No other country in the world runs FX in the same format as the USA.
So let's put this into perspective and look at the opposition in almost every other Twins category worldwide: Ducati 999, Aprilia RSV, KTM Superduke, etc. even the new BMW R1200S. They all have as much if not more rear wheel BHP in stock form than the XBRR does.
Sound of Thunder classes here in the UK are made up almost exclusively of Ex Superbike spec Ducati 996/998/999 machines and Aprilia RSV1000 Factorys, some of which have 150-180 rwbhp. The XBRR would still struggle to compete with these even with a good rider on board.
There are classes in Japan and elsewhere where the bike will probably do well, such as Battle of the Twins, but the appeal will be limited.
We have just spent months organising a UK Thunderbike Race series, and have tried to get support from Buell UK at every step. The series is now up and running although Buell have STILL not committed to supporting the series financially even for the small amount we were suggesting (around the cost of a new bike) for prize money covering the whole year. The XBRR would not qualify for this or the US Thunderbike series unless it was detuned to 90bhp or ballasted to 600lbs! Will anyone pay $31000 for a bike that has to be detuned to less than a stock bike? I think not.
Personally I believe that a cheaper customer Thunderbike spec bike would have been the way to go (or even a stock XBR with all the road equipment removed, similar to the CBR600RR track bike from Honda)as this is where the Grass Roots support for Buell is.
I think the future is decidedly undecided. |
Gentleman_jon
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 07:17 am: |
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Thanks for your informed and international perspective, Matt. |
Mutation_racer
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 07:19 am: |
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jima4media I have a great idea go to the local honda dealer and start sucking on some really nice CBR600RR'S,do me a favor and go buy one. |
Mr_cuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 07:30 am: |
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So let's put this into perspective and look at the opposition in almost every other Twins category worldwide: Ducati 999, Aprilia RSV, KTM Superduke, etc. even the new BMW R1200S. They all have as much if not more rear wheel BHP in stock form than the XBRR does.
I tried to say the same thing (and did a poor job) on another thread, and the concept was called "absurd". The retort was that the Buell is a "gifted piece of engineering" and that Yamaha's are used to attract Boy Scouts into showrooms.
I agree with your point very much and am looking for that day that the Buells are in the same league as the others you mention. The thing is, they didn't get there overnight, and the RR is just a step along the way. I love it for that, another step. Even if the engine is an eventual dead-end, the rest of the bike is not -
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Jscott
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 07:48 am: |
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Can someone please PLEASE shed some light on the rider situation. Are these big name guys only going to show up for one race or are they going to race the whole series? I'd like for someone to be left in the mix by MidOhio. Richard can you please shed some more light on this situation? |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 07:51 am: |
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Buell has NEVER HAD a Factory Team and this year it will. ... Richard I am sorry you effort won't be there and I understand how expensive this one race is. ... But I am not as sorry as I am about the fact that Buell of Vallejo won't be racing one of these this year. We have close to the XBRR price in our 1210cc AFM F4 Bike and plan on winning the clsss this year. It would have been great to have had two bikes in two classes and the XBRR could have owned the AFM Open Twins and ran AMA FX during the two West Coast Rounds, but that's not to be.
So for those who can't get on board to support the first Buell Factory effort, because the XBRR it's not a world superbike, or a water-cooled with multi valves, spinning to 17K RPM, Guess what YOU LOOSE. ... The rest of us are going to have a great watching and an even greater year racing. ... Terry |
Jscott
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 08:09 am: |
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Factory team with what riders? I assume this factory team will be racing the whole series? Somebody throw me a bone. When is this stuff going to be made official? |
Spike
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 08:13 am: |
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quote:So let's put this into perspective and look at the opposition in almost every other Twins category worldwide: Ducati 999, Aprilia RSV, KTM Superduke, etc. even the new BMW R1200S. They all have as much if not more rear wheel BHP in stock form than the XBRR does.
What is with these posts???
Ducati claims 139hp for the 999R, The RSV is 139hp as well. The new R1200S is only rated at 122hp. Buell's FX bikes were putting down 135hp to the wheel last year. This year they're claiming 150hp. At best the RSV and the 999R will put down equal power to the XBRR. The R1200S isn't even close.
I agree that nearly all of them could outpower the XBRR in full race trim, but what purpose do you serve in claiming that stock bikes will outpower the XBRR when all the facts indicate otherwise?? |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 08:29 am: |
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"This is a Race Bike for Race Teams" and they sold all 25 of them at the dealers show on Monday. No one could have been built it for what it cost, and there will be dealer teams racing it and not just at Daytona. A kit is coming so the engine can meet other class limits and for next season several of the important parts will be available to other Buell teams. As stated above we would have loved to have had the bike, but if we can buy the engine or even the heads from Henry for next year that will be great. ...If those heads, barrels and cases look like XR parts well just stop and think you can still order XR750 parts and it's the 300 + bike H-D V-Rod Drag program as well as this Buell Road Race program is what makes this so exciting. ...
But I do get confused when I read about "Other Stock Race Bikes" that you can buy down the street. ... I have never seen a Stock Race Bike from anyone? ??? Terry |
Mr_cuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 08:39 am: |
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Oh I support it alright, I just see the engine as a dead end. As Honda pulls out of FX, it is going to loose attention as a legit class. It is such a dead horse its not worth saying almost, and every body gets all up in arms about it, but I think the fact is for racing anything but specialty classes this motor is a dead end. Its fine (heck I think it is way more than fine - I choose it over every single other bike made) for the street and can have a long life there, but to build a race program it is not going to be the ticket. I still am going to love watching it race, and it is going to be a bike in museums one day, but it is one of the last of a dying breed if they are serious about racing at the upper levels -
I am still glad it is being done, and I trust that the way it is being handled will exceed the VR effort - BUT the VR was hampered by the insistence that it be done a certain way, to follow some sort of silly tradition or something, instead of it being done the way that would make the bike the fastest on the planet, which seems to be what the other teams are shooting for.
This type of stuff sort of sucks though - the bike has only been out 3 days and I'm already predicting its demise, when really it is awesome to see Buell keep taking the next steps, as the whole thing gets bigger, better and stronger. don't really want to focus on what it isn't right now, because it seems like the logical (also bold aggressive and cool) next step for them to build this right now - I want to watch it race and see what it can do
So I am a big fat contradiction - I lament that it is a dead end, and I celebrate it as the next logical step.  |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 08:49 am: |
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Matt:
Thank you for a bringing us your viewpoint. I don't agree with every point, but remain thrilled that you always communicate your thoughts and we have the benefits of "seeing across the sea".
Anecdotally some confusion would result from the fervor with which European dealers snatched up XBRR's. I have no real data yet, just tidbits from the show. I'm also aware that some of these may have been snatched as mantel pieces. Many of us who bought Buells in 1990 are keenly aware that the XBRR, adjusted for inflation, is about what I paid for a 1990 RS-1200.
I'd like to hear more and would be willing to do whatever I can to garner support for your UK racing series. Europe is huge for Buell and it **appears**, based on other issues I am currently monitoring, that the UK owners/dealers/network need, and in fact warrant, a but more attention. I hope to be making the right folks aware of this and would like your information to include.
Of particular note is Japan. Japan, well Japanese people, play a huge role in Buell even existing today. Buell owes much to Japan, including an apology for damages done to a poor innocent Goldwing. The Japanese are NUTS over Buells, they understand them and are passionate. Doubt me?. . just look at any of the Japanese Buell websites. Long and short of it, I can't wait to see what the folks in Japan do with the XBRR!
These are very exciting times and I'm proud to be caught up in them.
Thanks again for the role you've played in making Buell a "world player".
Court
P.S. - you should know that I will be wandering the UK on a Buell soon....it's not too soon to starting seeking places for safe cover.
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Benm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 08:52 am: |
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I’m really having difficulty grasping all the negativity here. The XBRR motor clearly looks like a great advance to the standard XB mill. Just from the pictures on this website, I’d guess that there are NOT many parts in common with a “regular” XB. Both outer engine cases are revised, the alternator’s been moved, the heads are completely different, the cylinders are different, the rocker setup (covers, etc) are completely different, the crank is a wild departure, etc. I’d even guess that the main engine cases are different (not just machined differently) to accept the 4” bore. To me, it looks like an almost completely new engine.
Said engine was built around an accommodating rule structure for a premier class of US racing. Those rules were MADE to allow for Buell to compete, and now they’re stepping to the plate with a dedicated machine. This would not be a new precedent by any means! The original WSB rules favored Ducati, as one easy example.
Within the ‘constraints’ of the Buell agenda, the motor seems a fabulous achievement. They seem to see their niche as 45-degree, air-cooled pushrod engines. How is this different from Ducati’s dedication to 90-degree twins & desmodronic cams? Or Triumph’s renewed dedication to triples? The Big Four certainly seem to have a lock on the inline-watercooled-screamer-fours. If you were trying to establish yourself as a company against such overwhelming competition, would it be prudent to start with a head on attack? Just how successful was Triumph’s 600 anyway? On the other hand, the new 675 triple is pretty cool, right?
Plus, the hp numbers for the “showroom” XBRR are “150+”, with the notes saying the bike was designed to be season-long reliable. Without assessing ACTUAL reliability and taking that statement at face value, would it be impossible to conceive that with a little more aggressive tuning that the HP numbers would be even higher?
Combine the XBRR with the stepped-up contingency program, and I think that Buell is doing an admirable job of supporting grass-roots racing AND national class racing. They are sticking to their formula, and using the rules they MUST have worked hard to get in place. I’m not going to predict any such thing like an all-Buell podium, racing is far too unpredictable for that even if you ARE the overdog (Remember the Honda FWS1000?). But it represents their best effort to date, to me. Why is that not enough? |
Rubberdown
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 08:59 am: |
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Politics, pitfalls, pity, and pride aside. I'm just gonna enjoy this vicarious ride. Go Buell! I love my 9R and believe whatever the XBRR achieves, it will lead to an even better street R soon. |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 09:13 am: |
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In regards to Trojan's points:
I agree.
The sportster derived engine will NEVER compete heads up with a modern design in real competition. Therefore special rules must apply, and I would not expect anyone but American sanctioning organizations to do so, just so siamesed, air-cooled, two-valve V-Twins can compete.
The general public only cares about the top few race clases where the best riders are. A BOT type class only sells bikes to those that already have/want them, nobody else cares. This is the reason HD must fight to get the Buells in a mainstream race class.
However, you can only handicap the old engine design until it starts winning, then everyone else will want the handicap reduced or eliminated. Similar to what is happening in drag racing.
Remeber how the V-Twin displacement and weight advantage was whittled away every year as Ducati kept dominating World Superbike?
In the interest of diversity, some handicap is necessary for less efficient engine designs. However, it should be expected that the rules will constantly be changed to keep parody. Especially considering the money the other manufacturers spend to redesign engines every two to three years to stay competitive. They do deserve some benefit for the money and time that they put in to redesign, rather than evolving a current engine and using some of the same tooling for decades. |
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