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Ebrfan
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2016 - 07:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I need some engine specs from somewhere, and I can't find them published in the electronic service manual. The list goes like this:

Intake Rocker Arm Ratio:
Intake Valve Head diameter:
Intake Valve Opens @ BTDC:
Intake Valve Closes @ ABDC
Intake Valve Lift @:
Intake Valve Duration @ .050" lift:
Intake Lobe Centerline:

Exhaust Rocker Arm Ratio:
Exhaust Valve Head Diameter:
Exhaust Valve Opens @ BBDC:
Exhaust Closes @ ATDC
Exhaust Valve Lift @:
Exhaust Valve Duration @ .50" lift:
Exhaust Lobe Centerline:


The specs don't seem to be published yet, and if you know them or where to look them up at please share. If you have a set of heads laying around the valve head sizes would be the easiest to get. How's anyone supposed to check to see if their adjustable cams are timed correctly???
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Readyxb
Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2016 - 05:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Posted by Dan Hurda on EBR 1190 Owners Group facebook page:

quote:

"Also, for anyone who isn't aware if you have specific technical questions you can send them to tech@ebr.com
That email address is monitored again and usually replied to same day."



If you get the specs, please share!
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Stevel
Posted on Friday, May 20, 2016 - 05:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have measured these for the 1125, but never seen them published anywhere. To do this accurately, a CMM is required with all the attachments. The measurements I made was done with a special jig I fabricated using a simple dial indicator and degree wheel. Even this was no simple task. It took me a couple of weeks to just set it up so that I got repeatable measurements. I do not have a CMM, but I hope to get access to one in the future. These cost around $50,000. Some commercial firms have them and some engineering labs in universities. I would have measured the 1190 cams, but I don't have any.

This is a metric engine, so you should be thinking metric. The typical measurement point starts and ends at 1mm lift off the base circle, not .050". The geometry of a finger follower does not have a fixed ratio like a rocker arm because the actual contact point between the follower and cam lobe sweeps across the wipe pad and therefore, the actual motion multiplier is a function of the cam lobe, but for course thinking, it moves about a 1.5 to one ratio. That is why I measured the actual valve displacement in 5 cam degree increments.

On the subject of valve diameter, I would think the 1125 and 1190 are the same. I would be very surprised if they are different. Making them larger would add very little to the engine performance and in fact would aggravate the existing low gas velocity and low turbulence issue that exists caused by the way too large port volume and lack of venturi. The 1125 valve diameter is intake 41.3mm and the exhaust is 34.5mm. The stem diameter is 5.5mm for both. The valve length is intake 100.86mm and exhaust is 94.3mm. The lift for both is about 10mm with the stock cam and a little over 11mm for the racing variants that I have measured. The valve timing for both the stock and racing cams is In 15-60 and Ex 60-15 on both the stock and racing cams. I would be glad to measure the 1190 cams, if I had them. There is no phase difference between the intake valves on the 1125 and as professed by others that now supposedly exists on the 1190 cams. The drive design allows adjustment of valve centers between In. and Ex. if you could find the adjustable drive gear. This gear was made by Andrews for EBR and was standard on the RS, but never sold separately. I have measured the valve acceleration curves for both the stock and racing cam profiles in 5 cam degree increments and have them expressed in XL spreadsheets that you could use to answer other questions and actually plot if you so desired. I would be happy to share with you if you wish. Contact me privately if so.

In conclusion, it is easy to see why the 1125 has such piss poor low speed performance with their huge pumping losses and low gas velocity. I would like to measure the differences with a set of 1190 cams.

In the early EBR years, I received good technical support from EBR, but soon after they started making new bikes, it quickly resulted in no response to my queries. You should ask the new EBR your questions and share with us your received answers, if any response is received. You may also ask them if they will sell the adjustable cam drive gear.

(Message edited by steve-l on May 20, 2016)

(Message edited by steve-l on May 20, 2016)
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Mrlogix
Posted on Friday, May 20, 2016 - 05:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

https://www.erikbuellracing.com/wp-content/uploads /2016/05/1190-ET-V2-Parts-Manual.pdf

You may also ask them if they will sell the adjustable cam drive gear.

item 16 on page 6, is this the one your asking about?
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Stevel
Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 11:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The drawing indicates part number F1040.1B7. That number is for the standard, non-adjustable gear set. The correct part number is F1040.09AZ and that is not shown in any parts book that I have seen.

I took the opportunity to email tech@ebr.com as readyxb suggested. The reply I got said that EBR does sell the part and identified the part number above. I have ordered two sets, one for each cylinder, but I have no cost yet because the part number is not in the available parts/ cost list, but I will let you guys know when I do.
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Stevel
Posted on Monday, May 23, 2016 - 11:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This gear and hub cost $238.85 each and you need one per cylinder.

(Message edited by steve-l on May 23, 2016)
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M1combat
Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2016 - 11:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I was under the impression that the adjustable one came stock on the 1190??
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Stevel
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2016 - 02:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Only stock on the RS.
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Snacktoast
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2016 - 08:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Stevel,

You might be surprised if you open up an RX/SX
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Stevel
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2016 - 12:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Snacktoast,
Of course, I don't know with personal experience, but if you look at the 1190 IPB on EBR's website, they give two different part numbers with a comment that the adjustable gear must be ordered separately, as it is race equipment.
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Snacktoast
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2016 - 07:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I realize what the parts book says.
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D_adams
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 08:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The RX/SX both have slotted cams, same as the RS.
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Stevel
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 11:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

What's a slotted cam?
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Crusty
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 12:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A cam with a slot in it, silly!
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1313
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 12:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Perhaps this...

The smiley face is the giveaway...
1313
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Ebrfan
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 08:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

^^^ That is the longest link address that went no where?
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M1combat
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 11:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I think maybe you should cancel the order Steve : )...
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Snacktoast
Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 01:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

^^^ That is the longest link address that went no where?

You just might be right about that!
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1313
Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 09:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I hope this works better for everyone. I mean it was posted on the EBR forum the end of August last year...
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Ourdee
Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 02:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)



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Ebrfan
Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 07:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for the info on the 1125 heads Stevel. Because the 1190 valve timing has different opening and closing times I don't think these numbers will work out well though. It would make the 1190 engine down on power more than likely. Did you get your adjustable cams yet? Having those and the 1190 valve opening and closing specs should really bump up the power on an 1125. (I would assume they will come with valve timing setup specs, unlike the electronic EBR service manual.)
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Stevel
Posted on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 01:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Joe,
As stated before, I don't know what the new 1190 cam timing is. I do know the 1125 cam timing has far too long duration for the intended speed range of the engine. It is the primary reason the low end drivability is so poor. Although the mechanical compression ratio is 12.4 to 1, the effective compression ratio is just slightly higher than 8 to 1. This is due to the very late intake valve closure point at 60* ABDC. That timing might have some benefit at 15,000 RPM, but not with a self destruct limit slightly above 11,000 RPM. Have you ever wondered why the 1125 runs quite happily on low octane fuel? Well, now you know. It is an unfortunate fact that there are no aftermarket cams available for this engine.

The cams on any of these engines are not adjustable. They all have a slot milled across the center of the face of the shaft end that a hardened pin pressed off center in the gear hub engages with, locking the cam to the gear. These gears are scribed with witness marks for cam timing purposes and are not adjustable. The chain sprocket, which is mounted to one gear is adjustable for precise phasing of both cams with the crank. The adjustable gear allows the mechanic to vary the phasing between the intake and exhaust cams, if so desired. This feature makes little benefit if using factory cams. I have designed my own cams that has much less duration, but much higher lift and faster accelerating cam ramps. In my case, the use of an adjustable gear will allow me to fine adjust the new cam lobe centers in case the indexing is not quite correct between the drive slots and lobe centers. I have purchased the gears, but they are still in transit.

I would very much like to measure the current cams and head casting used with the 1190 for differences. I have asked knowledgeable people what these changes are, but have received no detailed answers. What has been said is that the new casting improves swirl. This is bullshit, because open pent roof chambers do not swirl. They cannot, Induced turbulence in these chambers induces tumbling, not swirl. I have also been told the intake valve lobe centers are different, in that one intake valve opens slightly ahead of the other. I guess this is supposed to induce swirling. I also know that there is a drilled passage into the exhaust port. This can be seen in the new IPB on the new EBR site. I believe this is a port that will bleed off vacuum created by the exhaust pulse during low speed operation. This would be to prevent leaking the fresh fuel/air charge escaping into the exhaust during cam overlap at low engine speed. Just how effective these changes are is anybody's guess, but classify me as a doubting Thomas.
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