| Author | Message | ||
     Budo |
"1957 motor leaves me in the back of the pack." This is something that I thought would be of concern to Buell. The XB's have a pretty new motor but I really think they are down on power. It is my experience that most people are unable to hustle a bike around a corner. Especially the younger (and less experienced riders) who I think Buell are targeting with the XB's. You guys can correct me if Buell's target demographis are the 40 somethings like me. So, even though a guy might get left in a corner he can still whack the throttle open on the straight and catch up to his pals, right? Well, maybe not. What is the top speed on a CBR600 VS a XB12R? I blew up the motor on my S1W (had a intake seal leak) trying to keep a CBR600 in sight, forget reeling him in. So the kid on a XB12R is last with his pals, in fact when he rolls up his pals have already taken their helmets off and start giving him crap about being last. 'Man! that thing is slow! how much did you pay for that slow bike?' I can tell you from experience that these kids are not going to tolerate that. Now it is true that riding at that speed on the public street is irresponsible but irresponsible kinda defines the twenty somethings that I have ridden with and observed around bikes. To add insult to injury the 600 class of bikes are very inexpensive compared the the list price on the XB's. As always, YMMV. | ||
| Uwgriz |
Saw Higbee on a Buell at Blackhawk in July though. | ||
| Budo |
I ride a Yamaha and I still can't be Rossi  | ||
| Daves |
Cool Griz! Shawn can hustle a Buell around Blackhawk really fast! Budo, I ride a Buell and I can't be Higbee! Dave | ||
| Uwgriz |
Timing with all of the accuracy of my wristwatch, I caught him at 1:17 on his third lap of the day. Kinda makes my 1:29 look just a little slow. | ||
| Spike |
Let me see if I understand this correctly . . . Because most young people can't ride very well, you think Buell should focus less on handling and make more powerful bikes so that the young people can keep up with their friends on straight roads?!?!? Wow. Mike L. (23 years old, I don't need no stinkin' straight line speed) '04 XB12R | ||
| Daves |
I was thinking the same thing Spike. But I am old and can corner. Dave | ||
| Henrik |
Spike ... Funny!!!  Henrik | ||
| Darthane |
The engine Buell should have built is sitting out in my garage. Funny thing though - it came with a Firebolt attached to it!  | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
ha ha i like that one | ||
| Budo |
I am not saying that kids can't ride. A kid in my club rides like Rossi, on the street. Of course he is playing Russin Roulet but no one can tell him that. My point is this, these kids will want to keep up with their pals many of whom are riding 600 class bikes or liter bikes. The XB12R tops out I think around 135mph, I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong. When they hit a straight it is a race and the XB may fall behind. Now to some of us that is not a issue, but for many of the younger guys it is a very big deal. They do not want to be last and won't tolerate it. I have seen this first hand. Some of these guys would rather crash than be last. But if Buell is not interested in selling to that age group then this is wasted bandwidth, a nonissue. The first thing a kid (20 something) asks me about a bike is 'how fast will it go?'. | ||
| Uwgriz |
if Buell is not interested in selling to that age group It's not that they're not interested in selling to that age group, or even that type of rider for that matter (they're a business and will sell to anyone who will pony up the dough), but they don't target that type of rider. The top speed war is simply a game Buell has elected not to play and that suits many of us just fine. If it's not for you, then do what you did - buy something else. If there were truly a "best bike in the world" we'd be down to one motorcycle in production, wouldn't we? Different folks, different strokes. (Message edited by uwgriz on September 02, 2004) | ||
| Spike |
Budo, I understand what you're saying. Much of today's youth just wants to keep up with their buddies so they don't feel left out. No existing Buell will satisfy a customer with that mentality. Buell is trying to reach the younger crowd, but not by giving them top speed. Erik himself stated that the Firebolt wasn't for some geeky kid who wanted to scare himself- it was for someone who really wanted to go fast. | ||
| Misato |
man I'm tired of hearing this. 'why do you need more hp, most riders can't use the bike to maybe 60% of its potential.' or something like that. I used to think that until I had a track day. Now it just sounds like a good excuse for people to use that have 76hp at the rear wheel. what the hell does that have to do with twisting the throttle in a straight. nothing any idiot can do that. so that makes it 'bad'? I can't like/want both? I can only have one and not the other? I'd love more hp, not even more top speed, just getting there quicker would be fanf**kingtastic. some people make it sound like your an idiot/squid/moron for liking acceleration and hp. 'real world riding', well only corners in this 'real world'? I love the bike in the corners, which would 25 more hp change that? I dont think so, but it sure would be a lot of fun coming out of the corner on the straights. do I 'need' it? I want it.. 'well go buy a liter bike' f u , I knew what the bike was when I bought it. I knew I'm was gonna have to spend $$$ to get it. don't tell me what I need or what I dont need, or I'm out of my mind for even thinking I want more hp. what the hell is wrong with me? I've had my bike on 3 different dyno's (all dynojets) and it was from 77 (feracci map), 79(custom map done) 76 (12box no holes). this is with the PCIII, custom map and force pipe. still can't even catch my friends S1, but it sure looks puuurty and sounds nAsty. | ||
| Daves |
Budo, I hear the "how fast will it go?" all the time too. I do understand your point. But, like I tell customers on the floor, if you and I and everyone else is honest about it, 90+% of our sportbike riding, on the street or public road is between about 30 and 90 MPH. Most of the younger riders here never even leave town so I doubt if they are doing 160 very often. That's why I invite them to go on our BRAG rides(yes, other brands are welcome on our rides) they actually get to leave town, go on some nice curvy roads, ride with others that aren't trying to kill themselves to keep up or fit in. We never even hit 100 mph. We ride at a "spirited pace" Most come back for more, some don't. Some are not invited back. Dave | ||
| Blake |
Been wondering when this discussion would pop up again. What if anything about the XB engines is common to the 1957 Sportster Engine? Other than basic architecture? My M2 will cruise all day at 100 mph and gets me there from a dead stop in well under ten seconds. Fast enough for me. I just don't get wanting to go down the road any faster than that. Gee, the OHC IL4 has been around for how many years? Stupid old fashioned inline piston engines. I prefer Buells precisely because of their unique engine. I like Ducatis and the "R" series Beemers for the same reason. I admire the performance of the IL4's, and that MV is one hot sexy looking machine. A bit too hot and sexy for my taste; I could never hope to live up to the looks of that machine. LOL. I cherrish that my Buell is uniquely American and Americanly unique, a big bad burly brute of a bike with serious attitude and outstanding sport bike handling. I will never likely own a bike that puts out a high pitched whining/screaming exhaust note, meaning any IL4. The sound irritates me and my wonderful wife, whose keen asthetic values are unquestionable.  She always objects to the "awful noise" when I watch the Supersport and Superstock races on television. Like me she appreciates the V-Twin sound. Watching the Buells in AMA Formula Xtreme is too fun. The whine of the IL4's is so often obliterated by the angry bellering growl of the Hal's and Kosko's Buell XB machines. We dig it. The twisted American progeny of German immigrants, raised/forged in the steel city, motorcycle racer, wild man, turned engineer, still a wild man, turned entrepreneur, motorcycle racing enthusiast extraordinaire who has the gal to innovate and turn the conventional cookie-cutter sport bike industry on its pathetic head. Buell's marketing clearly reflect their intent to design and produce a sport bike for the refined, more skilled, more intelligent sport bike enthusiast, those who can appreciate the superior real world handling and engine characteristics offered by the current line of Buell twins. Buell's market is certainly not aimed at the idiot squirting-squids who are afraid to lean a bike over but see fit to squirt up to triple digit speeds on the straights between the turns. Neither is Buell's market aimed at those craving the wide open arrow straight-as-an-arrow interstate. The whole Buell XB package just makes sense. Belt final drive in lieu of the conventional messy, dirty, oil flinging, loud, heavy, maintenance intensive chain final drive. Zero maintenance gear driven valvetrain with zero maintenance hydraulic lifters in lieu of maintenance intensive belt or chain driven over-head cams. ZTL perimeter front brake system with one caliper, one brake line, allowing a huge reduction in the mass of the front wheel assembly thus a giant reduction in the front suspension's unsprung weight resulting in an incredible improvement in suspension performance over uneven/bumpy roads. Versus... dual disk, dual caliper, dual brake line, more complex, heavier, more massive conventional systems that work great on the track, but are far from optimum on real roads with bumps and patches and uneven surfaces. Fuel in frame, consolidating mass around the CG for improved handling and ingeniously combining two major components into one. Simpler is better. Likewise, integrating the oil reservoir with the swingarm saves parts, weight, centralizes mass, and allows optimum sport bike chassis geometry. New state of the art wheel spacers versus the same old clunky conventional aluminum spacers. Unmatched cutting edge chassis geometry versus the same old conventional geometry whose ills must be band-aided by steering dampers. Lightweight, sensor controlled, ducted forced air cooling system versus a convoluted, complex, heavy, prone to overheating, steam spewing, maintenance intensive conventional ugly azz radiator/thermostat/pump/reservoir liquid cooling system. Separate engine and transmission lubrication systems thus isolating transmission/clutch wear debris from the engine. Ultra high efficiency crankshaft roller bearings. Ultra high efficiency engine architecture achieving previously unheard of fuel efficiency in a 100 HP class motorcycle. Optimum combustion chamber and closed loop DDFI electronic fuel injection negates the need for catalytic converters and air injection systems in the exhaust system. Two year unlimited mileage warranty. I would hope that future incarnations of the Buell air-cooled powerplant might include continued advancements to the pushrod valvetrain and especially to the primary drive system where a gear-drive might be a welcome zero maintenance revision. I'd like to see a solid 100+ rwhp. That's more of a marketing thing than a necessary real world parameter. OHC doesn't make sense for a long stroking engine. If Buell goes to OHC, it will be to achieve big peak HP with a four valve head on a significantly oversquare high revving engine. If Buell continues the amazing advancements in performance and technology that they have given us in the past ten years, going from 60 HP to 103 HP and from 435 LBs to 385 LBs we are in for a real treat. Keep up the great work Mr. Buell! What you have accomplished is beyond amazing. I am excited though that we will soon be able to visit our local "Fischer" superbike dealer for a test ride of that new cutting edge American "superbike." And I can barely contain my anxious anticipation (going on two years now) of the new KTM superbike. I look forward to a demo ride at my local dealer. It is unfortunate though that the KTM and Fischer are already years old news and have yet to hit the dealerships. <yawn> Jose, I very much enjoyed your "Back on the Buell" post a while back. Thanks for that. (Message edited by blake on September 02, 2004) | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
well me personally im very happy with buell. do i think they need some more horse power yea but not at the cost of going from its current engine plat form just tweek it a bit. theres no need for a inline 4 or at the moment a liquid cooled bike, all that stuff equals more weight. so imo if buell does any thing they should just tweek the curent engine other than that leave it alone there awsoem bikes. | ||
| Blake |
Misato, XB12 upgrade along with some headwork?... 100+ rwhp. I agree, nothing wrong with more power. I put more than $3K into my '97 M2 to get to where I am really happy with the power. Throttle modulation is now a serious requirement. The massive torque down low will easily break the rear tire loose exiting a turn. Of course I live just 330' ASL. If I were in the mountains, I would want even more. As it is, you just cannot beat 80 FT-LB at 3,000 rpm for arm wrenching, wheel lifting, tire spinning fun. | ||
| M1combat |
"Sadly not everyone can grasp that concept. They think since they own an XB that they are Cicotto or Higbee." Grasped and holding firm my friend... My point wasn't that I'm any good at all. My point was that the Buell is a PERFECT bike for the back roads of America. Suited for them so much more than the other bikes that were on that road that me and my no skill having self could keep right up with all of them AT THE PACE THEY WERE RUNNING. Could they have gone faster? Probably. Could I have gone faster? Probably a little bit. The point is though, The XB didn't do ANYTHING funny what so ever and the roads we were on were VERY technical and narly. Bumps, cracks, holes, water runoff, trees growing directly out the side of the pavement, dirt on the road... Did any of the other bikes have trouble? Not really except for the bumps... They all had good tires so we were pretty equal in terms if traction, but their suspension just wasn't working as well over the bumps... | ||
| Budo |
What Blake said. Also back to the title of this thread, or when will Buell build a 100rwhp motor, not in my riding lifetime. Why, because they don't want/need to. | ||
| Rick_a |
Want 100RWHP...build it yourself. | ||
| Budo |
"Want 100RWHP...build it yourself." Well, I kinda did that. I had to rebuild the motor in my 1998 S1W after it holed a piston due to a intake seal leak. After it was all done and said I probably had something in the mid 90's hp wise. At that point I had probably put about $3k into a bike I paid $10,500 for. Not particulary smart in hind sight. Sure if money is no object you can get any number of folks to build a bike for you. Pammy or Nallin both have built bikes of legend. My problem is that money is an object. Why spend $10,999 for a bike and put in another $2~$3k or so (in the process voiding the warranty) to get the power of a $7k Suzuki SV1000. Hmmm, I don't think so. For $10,999 that bike should already make that kinda power, IMHO. | ||
| Rick_a |
There's plenty of overpriced gutless bikes out there. That's the price you pay for exclusivity. | ||
| Budo |
"There's plenty of overpriced gutless bikes out there. That's the price you pay for exclusivity." I don't understand, do you mean the XB? | ||
| Blake |
BMW R1200RS Ducati 1000SS, M1000 Moto Guzzi V11 Sport All heavier, slower, more expensive than comparably engined Buells. And yet they sell. | ||
| Budo |
Oh, of course. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
The whole Buell XB package just makes sense. Belt final drive in lieu of the conventional messy, dirty, oil flinging, loud, heavy, maintenance intensive chain final drive. Zero maintenance gear driven valvetrain with zero maintenance hydraulic lifters in lieu of maintenance intensive belt or chain driven over-head cams. ZTL perimeter front brake system with one caliper, one brake line, allowing a huge reduction in the mass of the front wheel assembly thus a giant reduction in the front suspension's unsprung weight resulting in an incredible improvement in suspension performance over uneven/bumpy roads. Versus... dual disk, dual caliper, dual brake line, more complex, heavier, more massive conventional systems that work great on the track, but are far from optimum on real roads with bumps and patches and uneven surfaces. Fuel in frame, consolidating mass around the CG for improved handling and ingeniously combining two major components into one. Simpler is better. Likewise, integrating the oil reservoir with the swingarm saves parts, weight, centralizes mass, and allows optimum sport bike chassis geometry. New state of the art wheel spacers versus the same old clunky conventional aluminum spacers. Unmatched cutting edge chassis geometry versus the same old conventional geometry whose ills must be band-aided by steering dampers. Lightweight, sensor controlled, ducted forced air cooling system versus a convoluted, complex, heavy, prone to overheating, steam spewing, maintenance intensive conventional ugly azz radiator/thermostat/pump/reservoir liquid cooling system. Separate engine and transmission lubrication systems thus isolating transmission/clutch wear debris from the engine. Ultra high efficiency crankshaft roller bearings. Ultra high efficiency engine architecture achieving previously unheard of fuel efficiency in a 100 HP class motorcycle. Optimum combustion chamber and closed loop DDFI electronic fuel injection negates the need for catalytic converters and air injection systems in the exhaust system. Two year unlimited mileage warranty. So Blake, when you gonna step up & trade in that old mule bike of yours for a nice shiny XB? Get 2 while you are at it so Court has something to ride. | ||
| Blake |
I like my '97 Cyclone better. There is far more in my choice of motorcycle than logic, performance, and technical superiority. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
logic, performance, and technical superiority. Good answer I feel the same way tho, for some reason the X1 & the S1's just appeal to me a lot more than the XB's do. Plus the torque of the older motors feels a hell of a lot stronger than even the XB12. | ||
| Daves |
Damn Blake, you sound like me! Dave |
